New PowerBooks on Tuesday.

[PHGN]

I admit this is a wild guess but:

G5 iMac would severly undermine the PowerMac. I'm prtty sure thats why they didn't get FW800.

IE: Bitchie marketing ploy. (It helps to have clearly defined product rages or else customers get confused and may not buy or are unhappy if they do buy.)

 

[hmmm]

Originally posted by kristianm
What about the iMacs? If the G5s where cheaper/faster/colder(?) than the G4 they would for sure be used in the iMac.

They would never have comparable speeds, so consumer/pro would not really be a big thing. This means that there is some reason that apple know of that meant it made sense to upgrade the G4 there.

imacs being the 'home computer' should be updated last, which is another reason I can't get my head arround the fact that the PB range has such slow processors - especially as it seems that PB's are currently showing the worst cost/quality combination

 

[centauratlas]

Re: Re: G5 heat/PB FAQ & Summary

Originally posted by NicoMan
that's about as far as I went. Anyone patient enough to read through all of this and see if there is something new in there?

Nothing new if you have been following the PB discussions over the past 2 months. I included all the links I had initially posted, plus ones that others had mentioned later.

 

[kristianm]

Originally posted by hmmm
imacs being the 'home computer' should be updated last, which is another reason I can't get my head arround the fact that the PB range has such slow processors - especially as it seems that PB's are currently showing the worst cost/quality combination

But the update means we will have no iMac G5/something before christmas. And I am quite sure that next summer there will be no "Motorola inside" stickers left at Apple.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: Re: my 2cents

Originally posted by mvc
LOL - what ARE you talking about? Apple has always and still sets the standard for laptops, and when the G5 does make it into the lappies, they will be even faster than they already are, which is admirably fast enough to match these vaunted centrinos.

Unfortunately, that's not quite true. From my more detailed previous post comparing performance between Apple and Dell (1 1.4ghz Pentium M processor):

I can't seem to locate a downloadable SPECcpu2000 program (and I'm not willing to put a huge amount of time into it). A quick download of PCMark and the Dell shows an aggregate processor score of 4500, or about 60% that of the typical 3ghz P4 score of 7800. Scaling the apple measured SPEC scores from http://www.apple.com/g5processor/ by the same amount (which is crap, but easy), gives fp:400 and int:513, which in turn about compares to a 1ghz G5 on float or a 1.3ghz G5 on integer.

Using the spec.org numbers for the 3ghz P4 to scale gives fp:709 and int:664. These map to approximately a 1.65ghz G5 chip. To be fair, I'll use IBMs numbers for the 970, with fp:1051 and int:937 at 1.8ghz (with a decent compiler). Using these to compare, the PM compares to about a 1.38ghz G5.

Is this very scientific? Nah, not in the slightest. It doesn't include the debatably higher build quality of the Powerbooks (solid, but prone to defects such as warping), or the benefits (nicer, cleaner) of OSX ... or the drawbacks (specific applications, etc) of OSX. Its just some musings on performance.

Either way, anyone still thinking that Apple's laptops still rule the roost is sadly mistaken. Again, the numbers above are for the slowest Dell 600M currently offered, that I personally bought for $1300 (seen 'em cheaper). The newer 1.7ghz models are available and 30% faster. Don't confuse the PM with the P4M -- these are very different chips.

So, unless I've made a serious mistake, you can expect the PM and the G5 to compete pretty strongly on a clock-for-clock basis. The powerbooks will probably feel faster, especially with factors like QE offloading jobs to the GPU where XP does them with the CPU, but for serious business-application number-crunching, I don't expect to see much of a difference.

Even intel data points out just how much faster the Centrino set (including the new processor) is than the P4M.

Sad, but true.

In other news, even if the G5 and G4 are performing the same now, I see 'em making the switch. Why?

1. Marketing - 64bit laptop and all that rot
2. Consistency - using a single pinout has to be easier on the MB crew
3. Optimization - with all new machines using the G5, application builders are more likely to use the new G5 optimizations sooner
4. Cost - the G5 is, from all reports, cheaper than the G4
   [/list=1]Just my opinion, of course. Personally, I'm looking forward to it. I'd love to see a 1.4ghz or so in the 15", even as a BTO option. After all, OSX rocks, we're all just waiting on some comparable hardware to run it on (and no, a 25% speed boost and a cutsey keyboard after 14 months of nada does not, IMO, cut it).
   
   -Richard

 

[SiliconAddict]

Huh?

Why are there 54 negative votes. It shouldn't matter what side of the fence you are on with the G5. The fact that new PowerBooks are being released is a good thing.

 

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by hmmm
imacs being the 'home computer' should be updated last, which is another reason I can't get my head arround the fact that the PB range has such slow processors - especially as it seems that PB's are currently showing the worst cost/quality combination

Talking about the iMac is actually interesting:
Don't you think that if Apple were to put a G5 in the PB, they would have updated the iMac to a 7457 (bigger L2 cache + frequency can be pushed higher because of better efficiency), no?

Even if the said chip (7457) is in low supply, for whatever reason, they could have waited another couple of weeks for those. There was no rush to update the iMac (apart from it being rather slow, but that's not exactly news, is it?).

My £0.02

 

[hmmm]

Originally posted by NicoMan
Talking about the iMac is actually interesting:
Don't you think that if Apple were to put a G5 in the PB, they would have updated the iMac to a 7457 (bigger L2 cache + frequency can be pushed higher because of better efficiency), no?

Even if the said chip (7457) is in low supply, for whatever reason, they could have waited another couple of weeks for those. There was no rush to update the iMac (apart from it being rather slow, but that's not exactly news, is it?).

My £0.02

But I guess from a marketeing perspective, releasing the imac early makes sense, I'm sure most school/university students would rather save their pennies and buy an imac, after all, is portability going to be that important to them? But that still doesn't warrant the fact that PB are currently poor value. Lets hope tomorrow brings the sun

 

[kristianm]

Originally posted by hmmm
But I guess from a marketeing perspective, releasing the imac early makes sense, I'm sure most school/university students would rather save their pennies and buy an imac, after all, is portability going to be that important to them? But that still doesn't warrant the fact that PB are currently poor value. Lets hope tomorrow brings the sun

I think you are missing the point, the 7455 (?) update is not very well suited for the iMac, and will not bring it much more life. It could really use the 7457, so they are either late, or going to powerbooks. I just think that the iMac update is not good news for a powerbook G5 update.

 

[JSRockit]

Steve Job's dominatrix told me that the 15" and 17" pBook will indeed have the G5 in them...starting tomorrow.

 

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by hmmm
But I guess from a marketeing perspective, releasing the imac early makes sense, I'm sure most school/university students would rather save their pennies and buy an imac

Agreed, but I was pointing out that pushing the G5 to the PB (at apple Expo) would have left much more scope for improvement in the iMac than just a speedbumped 7455B...

 

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by kristianm
I think you are missing the point, the 7455 (?) update is not very well suited for the iMac, and will not bring it much more life. It could really use the 7457, so they are either late, or going to powerbooks. I just think that the iMac update is not good news for a powerbook G5 update.

Exactly my point.

 

[NoPrideELF]

If updates are made at 3am EST, and are, let's say, available immediately. What time would I, on the east coast, be able to order one? would they update the site immediately (at 3am) or wait until the usual 9am?

 

[Sergem]

O'Grady's Powerpage now onboard

It sounds like O'Grady's Powerpage is now onboard for a Powerbook release very soon, unlike the previous rumors it posted.

"First, we were excited to learn that after a series of fits and starts, the revised PowerBook 15-inch in Aluminum has passed all trials and units are cleared for distribution."

It also says Apple will continue to use ATI cards in the 15, but not the 12 and 17. Thats good for buyers of the 15, but has to be a let down if you were waiting on the 12 or 17. I hope they are wrong. I guess we will see tomorrow.

"With that a word on video cards. The production model PowerBook 15-inch will ship with a 64MB ATI graphics chips. the nVIDIA GeForce GX has been officially shelved for that model. Only the 12-inch (32MB) and 17-inch (64MB) machines will retain nVIDIA cards during this production run."

http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=11384

 

[TWinbrook46636]

Originally posted by mvc


I have now officially died and gone to a better place where mac rumours don't exist and we all use dos.

c:\ya\later >

I'm sorry to hear you didn't make it to heaven.

 

[TWinbrook46636]

Re: O'Grady's Powerpage now onboard

Originally posted by Sergem
It sounds like O'Grady's Powerpage is now onboard for a Powerbook release very soon, unlike the previous rumors it posted.url]http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=11384[/url]

Geez, they are as bad as MacWhispers are'nt they?

 

[eric67]

let see

Originally posted by NoPrideELF
If updates are made at 3am EST, and are, let's say, available immediately. What time would I, on the east coast, be able to order one? would they update the site immediately (at 3am) or wait until the usual 9am?

so if the announed is made during the keynote, I would say around 10am in Paris, then it corresponds to 04am inUS east coast; so my guess is that anyway the store will be updated world wide.
this is exactly what happened for the iMac updates, worldwide updates, around 8am US east cost (even before if I recall properly)

 

[eric67]

new iMac=7455 rev

Originally posted by NicoMan
Exactly my point.

it is clear that the new iMac sports a 7455 rev, and not the 7457; as you mentioned it is possible that the few 7457 successfully produced are going to the new PowerBook, so Apple might be again in trouble if there is a similar ordering of 7457-based powerbooks as it was for the Dual G5 2GHz

 

[NoPrideELF]

Re: let see

Originally posted by eric67
so if the announed is made during the keynote, I would say around 10am in Paris, then it corresponds to 04am inUS east coast; so my guess is that anyway the store will be updated world wide.
this is exactly what happened for the iMac updates, worldwide updates, around 8am US east cost (even before if I recall properly)

Thank you, so basically I will have to be staying up all night through a combination of coffee, energy drinks, and drugs in order to be among the first on line.

 

[TWinbrook46636]

The mobile version of the G5 is said to be sampling from IBM around this Novemeber. If that doesn't change Apple could release G5 PowerBooks within the January~March timeframe using these chips.

This doesn't mean Apple couldn't ship G5 PowerBooks now using slower clocked desktop G5 processors at say 1 GHz and 1.2 GHz though. I think it's pretty clear by now they wouldn't have any more heat/power issues than the current G4 PowerBooks. That is, they wouldn't be ideal but it has been done before. It would also explain why we have been waiting so long.

Still, knowing that Motorola has 1.0 GHz and 1.3 GHz 7457 mobile chips for Apple, cold reality must sink in. They have to be used for something and I don't see them going into the iBooks any time soon nor are they going into the iMacs either as the recent iMac release prooves.


I'm still hoping for this lineup tommorow:


12" 7457 G4 @ 1.0 GHz

15" 7457 G4 @ 1.0 GHz
15" 7457 G4 @ 1.3 GHz

17" 7457 G4 @ 1.3 GHz


Of course, I would mind seeing this either:


13" 7457 G4 @ 1.0 GHz

15" 7457 G4 @ 1.0 GHz
15" 7457 G4 @ 1.0 GHz x2

17" 7457 G4 @ 1.3 GHz
17" 7457 G4 @ 1.3 GHz x 2


Unfortunately, even with a 7457 (as opposed to a 7455) I don't think duals are a possibility though maybe on the 17" model. I would love to be prooved wrong on this though. Come on Apple proove me wrong!

 

[Photorun]

I'd guess any and all Moto will be phased out as quickly as possible. If the screaming fits from Jobs at Moto HQ in upstate NY are true, where he called their chips "a tonka toy" next to the G5 to their faces, not to mention the chip lag fiasco... I can't imagine Moto chips being in Macs much longer.

That being said don't jump the G5 gun (i.e. assume that everything will go G5, at least not at first). The 750 aka G3 (to Apple) has a lot of legs coming out of IBM. With new on die procedures coming to it and Altivec ability we may be seeing them around a couple years more. And there's nothing even wrong with that, they'll hold their own on the consumer ends of things quite well from the specs that have been floated around. Far cooler and energy efficient than the G5 and faster MHz for MHz than the G4 with potentially reaching 2.0 GHz, not to mention cheaper and from IBM hopefully no ridiculous delays. The 750 (G3 or whatever Apple wants to call it) woudl completely make sense for the iBook and maybe even the iMac (with altivec and the busses enabled to their potential). I don't see the G5 making it into the iMac though.

Heck, currently the currrent iMac is probably as fast as the entire current (as of today, Monday) Powerbook line which is like up is down and down is up! Of course that will change tomorrow... barely.

 

[peteMG]

G4 ... G5 ... FIGHT

Originally posted by zync
Does this mean that if G5's somehow come out in Powerbooks on tuesday everyone can PM you with a bigger, fatter, "I told you so?"

Sweet.. that thread is gonna be great, either way!

 

[greenstork]

Today's news headlines from CNBC. Frequently, investment analysts get an inside line on something that would significantly affect sales. Here are the headlines:

IBM upgraded (again)
Analysts covering Dow component IBM_(IBM, news, msgs) were busy last week, with Credit Suisse First Boston upgrading the stock and Smith Barney coming back with a downgrade a couple of days later. The trend continued today as brokerage UBS raised to the stock to “buy” from “neutral,” saying the company’s semiconductor unit is about to improve, Briefing.com reported. UBS also said IBM shares seem to be lagging the recent technology rally.


Take it as you will but the rumormills and sources that surround the stock market are far deeper and more extensive than any Mac rumor sites. I'm not saying G5 PB's, but I have not ruled it out as a possibility, nor the Gobi.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: my 2cents

Originally posted by esheep2001
Style yes, sheer speed, not anymore. Altivec is still good if that's what you need but that's gonna pale now that the desktop G5's are out.

Earlier parts of this thread have emphasised the chipset problems (not just heat) that will ensue with the G5. Not insurmountable by any means but time consuming.

I have no doubt Apple will get there eventually, but I doubt they will ever lead again.

As to style, I actually quite like the Sony Z1. Ok so XP blows, but it's the best MS have come up with so far. As for viruses, if you're dumb enough to open an attachment in an email message you didn't expect then you get what you deserve! Equally, if you're greedy enough for "free" stuff that you're willing to run adware then good luck to you!

Sorry, but now that Intel have admitted that MHz is not everything and have started trouncing the G4 with the Centrino it's difficult to justify the expense of an Apple notebook for anything except realtime video that makes extensive use of altivec.

I really wanted to get an Apple Powerbook but every speed bump for the Centrino is another nail in the coffin of the Powerbook. I refuse to spend twice as much on a machine just because it looks good. And what's the point of having a fantastic OS if it's crippled by the hardware?

All IMHO, of course!

e.

When the G5 reaches 90 nm, look for PowerBooks to be very, very close to the Power Macs in terms of processor speed. Just like everything else in Apple's line, the PowerBooks will soon be fast enough to handily trounce Intel.

Originally posted by NicoMan
You made some interesting points, but why do you even start about heat dissipation? Even if you let alone the fact that the posts you mentioned don't mean zilch, because no one has actual figures for the 7457s, the 7455 revB and so on.

Did they put the 7455 Rev. A in a PowerBook? If so, the comparisons are still valuable.

Originally posted by Ti_Pousin
Than you will wake up in heaven and God will say to you that the G5 powerbook was avaible few day after your death! but he can have you a:
Quadra G6 Powerbook

I'd be happy with just a Quadra, personally.

Originally posted by PHGN
I mean that the relationship with the Power4 means that there has already been quite a lot of development work done on it -- IBM has a wealth of experience about what does and doesn't work, where the problems in Mobo design are etc.

Except they never tried to go and make a laptop out of the Power4.

Originally posted by hmmm
I'm sure most school/university students would rather save their pennies and buy an imac, after all, is portability going to be that important to them?

Uh, yes.

Laptops are great for taking notes and for studying and working around campus. They're pretty important.

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
The mobile version of the G5 is said to be sampling from IBM around this Novemeber. If that doesn't change Apple could release G5 PowerBooks within the January~March timeframe using these chips.

Really? Is there in fact a "mobile G5"? So far, on the Mac, I've seen that the mobile processors have been the same as the desktop processors.

Originally posted by Photorun
I don't see the G5 making it into the iMac though.

Just wait until 90 nm. At that point, heat will be far less of an issue.

 

[PHGN]

SO you read the 'Skip to 90' story too.

Im getting very bored of the heat discussions. Admitedly for laptops it is often one of the most important design factors, but for an iMac it realy isn't an issue. Just change the case slightly.