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New PowerMacs Released

Originally posted by ddtlm
Dr.Bimane:

True, a 2.5ghz P4 is not 2.5 times the speed of a 1ghz G4. Actuall difference in speed depends on what you are doing. For many things Macs are close enough that it doesn't matter (10.2 should help that some too).

I think it's time for me to get to work!
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lovely to see you finally came to your senses. i just love when someone does a 180° change and acts like nothing has happened. :)

SPEC blindness only temporary? or did all the posts from various people explaining how horribly wrong you were just convince you that you were wrong. or maybe you actually did some research and found that in every benchmark besides spec the powermacs are holding their own against the x86 processors. whatever made you change your tune its appreciated.

many of us who are aware of all of the benchmarks get tired of trying to educate ignorant newbies such as yourself.

bottom line is the g4 does very well. these new powermacs represent a very significant update. the cpu itself may not be that impressive, but the rest of machine isnt anything to scoff at. i honestly wouldnt be surprised if these machines give enough of a performance boost to close the gap between the powermacs and wintels.
 
Oh, fantastic... has anyone else noticed that we can no longer order a ZIP drive for the second bay?! That ticks me off. I've never needed a second optical drive, I'm in graphic design and we swap zips as much as CDs! That's ridiculous.

Apple has made some of the hardware advancement's we've been waiting for for years now, but a lot of the other stuff seems so half-baked. No new FireWire, no new USB, no built-in Bluetooth, no new displays, no new keyboards or mice, no front firewire or usb ports, no DDR FSB.

If these G4's are truly for the "prosumer", don't you think we'd rather have front, quick access to a hot-pluggable firewire disk as opposed to a front headphone minijack??

C'mon Apple, we've seen better from you, and consequently we've come to expect better from you. The new G4s are impressive, no doubt, but it's the little things that bring it down IMO...

Oh well, I'm not even remotely close to buying a new PowerMac, so I'll just keep waiting patiently for my G5... :rolleyes: ;) :p
 
I've said it once and I'll say it again. DUAL PROC MACHINES WILL ABSOLUTELY FLY IN X.2.

I have a DUAL 450 and I'm loving the performance in X.2. So I can only imagine how fast these machines will be in Jaguar.
 
hemingray i think you are being seriously unreasonable.

No new FireWire, no new USB, no built-in Bluetooth, no new displays, no new keyboards or mice, no front firewire or usb ports, no DDR FSB.
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if this is your list of complaints i think you need to join the rest of us in the real world. no new firewire? come on. sure it would be nice, but it will come when its ready. dont blame them for not using future hardware. no new usb? who cares. sure i need usb2.0 so my mouse and keyboard and be faster. usb2 is a joke, with on board fw there is no need for usb2. no built-in bluetooth. seems pretty minor to me. no new displays or mice? you are joking right? apple's displays are awesome. and you wanted a new mouse? perhaps a different color. come on what a joke. no front fw and usb ports? ok some peope might find this useful, but for most people it would just be ugly and get in the way. no ddr fsb? not sure what you mean by that and i suspect neither do you. apple upped the speed of the fsb. it fully supports ddr.

did you even look at the specs on the new powermacs? there are many changes that will likley be copied by pc manufacturers. this hardware is inovative and if you cant see that from reading the specs then use one and get back to me with you bitching. this is a very good release.
 
AmbitiousLemon:

I haven't done any changing. The G4 still gets rocked in SPEC, and SPEC still matters more than Photoshop or RC5. Look again at my statement that apparently you think was an agreement with your position: I say "for many things" not MOST. I do not say what "many" is, most importantly I do not state how important these "many things" are. "Many" could be 100 tasks out of 1000000 possible tasks. Mr Lemon, you need to stop twisting everything to your liking. Take off the rose-colored glasses.

Anyway, as a general comment:

I am happy to see that although in one place Apple claims the L3 is "up to 500mhz", the L3 on the 1.25 is in fact 625mhz. I was pretty worried about them changing the multiplier to 1/5 from 1/4 (both pre-DDR), which I might add didn't seem possible based on Moto's PPC7455 spec document. But anyway, my mind is eased now. Whew. BTW: this is DDR SRAM (not DDR SDRAM), and much much faster than a direct 625mhz vs 166mhz comparision would lead one to believe. Much like a G4 clock cycle is worth more than a P4 clock cycle, SRAM is better than SDRAM at the same clock (because of latency).
 
Originally posted by edvniow
I don't think they own them, they just have a VERY close partnership. Ever notice any RDRAM on any AMD MB? I don't think so...
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Time for another round of antitrust litigation against Intel! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Originally posted by ddtlm
AmbitiousLemon:

I haven't done any changing. The G4 still gets rocked in SPEC, and SPEC still matters more than Photoshop or RC5. Look again at my statement that apparently you think was an agreement with your position: I say "for many things" not MOST. I do not say what "many" is, most importantly I do not state how important these "many things" are. "Many" could be 100 tasks out of 1000000 possible tasks. Mr Lemon, you need to stop twisting everything to your liking. Take off the rose-colored glasses.
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:) you are right once again. SPEC benchmarks mean much more than how fast the machine performs doing things that you do in real life. i mean who cares if a g4 is faster than a pc at tasks i do everyday and use to make a living. i want to know how it can perform mindless calculations that do not measure the speed of the machine as a whole and does not measure how fast it can work with real world data. [sarcasm]

ddtlm i have a hard time believing you know much of anything about computers since you continue to ignore all benchmarks other than SPEC. Either that or you are on the intel payroll.

No one here is looking at anything through rose colored glasses. We look at things realistically and actually research before we come on the boards and post the ignorant drivel you are passing off as an opinion. When it comes right down to it you are simply wrong. The g4 does get beat in SPEC (by a lot!), however when run through other benchmarks including real world benchmarks the g4 is not lagging at all. It even wins in many benchmarks. Overall it still is behind, but as nearly everyone who owns a newer powermac and a x86 machine will tell you the speed difference is negligable.

But of course we all know this mean nothing. All benchmarks (including real world performance) mean nothing to the all holy SPEC benchmark! ill get down on my hands and knees now and pray to the glory of one useless benchmark.[sarcasm again]
 
DDR FSB

Originally posted by Hemingray
no DDR FSB.
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Someone posted this on Slash Dot

These machines do have DDR memory and a DDR system bus but the G4's themselves are running at 133 or 167MHz (depending upon model). The system controller and memory are running full tilt though (266 or 333 depending).
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And of course they have a DDR BSB too. :)
 
AmbitiousLemon:

The time has come for you to name some benchmarks and tell me why they are more meaningful than SPEC, and to provide links showing my how Macs are outperforming PC's.

I've already listed RC5 and Photoshop as cooked in Apple's kitchen. How about you name some of these other tests that you seem to think are so vast?

I state that SPEC is a well-known cross-platform many-algorithm, floating point and integer test that shows with roughly equal versions of gcc as the compiler, a G4 gets beat by a P3 at the same clock speed. It would be nice to compare a P3 with Intels compiler to one equally fast for Apple or G4's, but no such thing exists. That's the real world.

The real world involves programmers like me using the compilers and tools at hand to make programs for a commerical market. If you are lucky we bother to port it to the Mac. If you are even more lucky, we hand-code AltiVec where Intel's compilers would do SSE or SSE2 for us.

I repeat: bring out your benchmarks and lets have a look at them.

"but as nearly everyone who owns a newer powermac and a x86 machine will tell you the speed difference is negligable"

Ha ha ha! Rose glasses! Some will claim this, but hey I own both and lemme tell ya, I do not agree.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
if this is your list of complaints i think you need to join the rest of us in the real world. no new firewire? come on. sure it would be nice, but it will come when its ready. dont blame them for not using future hardware. no new usb? who cares. sure i need usb2.0 so my mouse and keyboard and be faster. usb2 is a joke, with on board fw there is no need for usb2. no built-in bluetooth. seems pretty minor to me. no new displays or mice? you are joking right? apple's displays are awesome. and you wanted a new mouse? perhaps a different color. come on what a joke. no front fw and usb ports? ok some peope might find this useful, but for most people it would just be ugly and get in the way. no ddr fsb? not sure what you mean by that and i suspect neither do you. apple upped the speed of the fsb. it fully supports ddr.

did you even look at the specs on the new powermacs? there are many changes that will likley be copied by pc manufacturers. this hardware is inovative and if you cant see that from reading the specs then use one and get back to me with you bitching. this is a very good release.
Click to expand...

FireWire: Check out how long the original FireWire's been around. They COULD have v2 out by now if they really tried.

USB 2.0: It is not a joke. Although we're less likely to see it than FW2, IF they implemented FW2 then they could add USB 2.0 to keep us up to snuff with the newest USB hardware.

Bluetooth: They've been touting bluetooth now for the better part of the year, but where is it? In a little USB pluggable adapter. We'll probably see this in Jan., but it would have been nice if they had integrated it into these new PowerMacs while they were revising it in the first place.

Displays: No, I'm not joking. I'm quite serious. How long have we had the gap between 17" and 22"? I've been waiting for a 19" LCD for about two years now. They could do it, and they SHOULD do it. And they should have done it while they released the new PowerMacs.

Mice and Keyboards: I don't care about wireless, if you're wondering. I'm talking about little stuff, like bringing back the power key, give the mouse more than one button or a scroll wheel or something.

Front FW and UBS Ports: Ugly and get in the way? Naw, I think YOU'RE joking. It can't be any uglier than the new front already is! You've heard of the iPod and other hot-pluggable FireWire devices, right? And USB keys/memory sticks? Apple's always prided themselves in ease-of-use, and having to reach behind the tower to plug in these items goes directly against that.

FSB: Sorry, but the bus runs at 166, and it is NOT DDR! Take a look at the Apple Store and even the tech specs. Don't you think they would have mentioned that if it was?

All-in-all, a lot of us in your so-called "real world" are not that impressed with what COULD have been done with this revision. Like I said, SOME of the advancements have been met, but leaves a lot to be desired.
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
ddtlm. :) sorry im not impressed. basically all you said is that despite an education (from where i wonder) that you still will ignore all tests of real world performance i favor of a benchmark that in no way translates to the speed of the processor. furthermore you ignore everything regarding the differences in the archetecture of the chip all to stare blindly at a single benchmark that says something different from every single other benchmark performed on these machines. your education means absolutely nothing to me as long as you keep those blinders up. the plain fact of the matter is that the spec benchmarks do not test real world performance. since this machine is a desktop personal computer real world benchmarks mean far more than spec. what do the real world benchmarks show? well yes the powermacs are slower. but it is a narrow victory for the intel folks (amd does better). these new machines should make the gap even smaller. if you are interesting in using a computer how it is designed to be used apple does well. if you want to run spec all day get a pc and enjoy.
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This man is just a believer. His belief is filtering all that you can tell him. No space for dialog. Don't take the time.
 
Originally posted by Hemingray
Oh, fantastic... has anyone else noticed that we can no longer order a ZIP drive for the second bay?! That ticks me off. I've never needed a second optical drive,
Click to expand...

The issue here is zip. Zip is no longer an unchanging storage platform. Which zip should be included, the 100, the 250, the 750. Why create a drive bay for something which won't exist in a year?:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


lovely to see you finally came to your senses. i just love when someone does a 180° change and acts like nothing has happened. :)

SPEC blindness only temporary? or did all the posts from various people explaining how horribly wrong you were just convince you that you were wrong. or maybe you actually did some research and found that in every benchmark besides spec the powermacs are holding their own against the x86 processors. whatever made you change your tune its appreciated.
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Hmmm, I didn't hear anything but quiet around here. Certainly nothing about why one PPC ISA processor can do so well on SPEC (POWER4) while another sucks seriously (G4). Only anecdotal evidence about how you can't type faster than your G4 can process your keystrokes.


many of us who are aware of all of the benchmarks get tired of trying to educate ignorant newbies such as yourself.

bottom line is the g4 does very well. these new powermacs represent a very significant update. the cpu itself may not be that impressive, but the rest of machine isnt anything to scoff at. i honestly wouldnt be surprised if these machines give enough of a performance boost to close the gap between the powermacs and wintels.
Click to expand...

These new PowerMacs represent an XServe in a desktop enclosure. Yes, the machine is no dog, but it's not cutting edge technology by any means. And it won't close any performance gap. The only benchmarks people have mentioned here (besides silly Photoshop bakeoffs) are Xinet server benchmarks. This proves what? That the G4 can keep up with 1GHz PIIIs. Okay, great, and while the P4 is at 2.53 GHz on a 533MHz FSB (and 3GHz by years end or sooner), we'll sit around and pat ourselves on the back about how we've finally caught up with LAST YEAR's Wintel machines. Granted, the P4 does less per clock than the PIII or G4 but you can't reason away 3GHz processors to the "megahertz myth".
 
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

ddtlm i have a hard time believing you know much of anything about computers since you continue to ignore all benchmarks other than SPEC. Either that or you are on the intel payroll.

No one here is looking at anything through rose colored glasses. We look at things realistically and actually research before we come on the boards and post the ignorant drivel you are passing off as an opinion. When it comes right down to it you are simply wrong. The g4 does get beat in SPEC (by a lot!), however when run through other benchmarks including real world benchmarks the g4 is not lagging at all. It even wins in many benchmarks. Overall it still is behind, but as nearly everyone who owns a newer powermac and a x86 machine will tell you the speed difference is negligable.
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ROFLMFAO!!!! This guy is smoking crack! Conspiracy theory!!! LOL!!

Listen bub, bring your benchmarks. Either that or shut up!
 
Originally posted by Pekk


This man is just a believer. His belief is filtering all that you can tell him. No space for dialog. Don't take the time.
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hahaha. id say you are the 'believer' anyone who completely ignores all evidence to the contray has some issues.

and ddtlm ive posted links here as have several others. some people have even quoted the text. if you are too blinded by SPEC to click the link and read the posts then i wont bother reposting stuff that has already been said.

Heningray. i think you are just being unreasonable. You take rumors sites too much to heart. after a big release we always here people complain. try to be realistic here. apple isnt going to change the mouse. fw2 doesnt exist yet. usb2 is useless if you have fw. as far as front side ports go. maye it would be nice. im not convinced. i prefer them in the back so all the cables are out of the way. perhaps apple could do something to allow a front fw port. not sure why you woudl need usb in front. but all these things just seem so minor when you think about how ****ty the last powermac update was. and how big an update this is.
 
Originally posted by kenohki


ROFLMFAO!!!! This guy is smoking crack! Conspiracy theory!!! LOL!!

Listen bub, bring your benchmarks. Either that or shut up!
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numerous link have been posted already by myself and many others. conspiracy theory? what you talking about? i think you are the guy who needs to shut up. as usual the only reason you seen to think that macs are crappy is because you keep jabbering and you havent read anything in this thread. please click the lil back button and actually read before you post again. you are just embarrassing yourself by posting stuff like this.
 
Re: DDR FSB

Originally posted by DavidRavenMoon


Someone posted this on Slash Dot

And of course they have a DDR BSB too. :)
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If what they say is indeed true then Apple really needs to make that more clear. Because to me, if the system bus was TRULY DDR, why would Apple simply say "166MHz system bus" as opposed to "333MHz system bus"? Of all people, Apple would be the ones to try and make it sound the most impressive.
 
DUAL 867 "FASTER THAN PREVIOUS DUAL 1GHZ?

DUAL 867 "FASTER" THAN PREVIOUS DUAL 1GHZ?
i use for audio applications, Logic And DP3
plain question, plain answer
:)

I just went down to APple Store in Soho, no new machines there. They lost my purchase, in 2 days ill be buying it at Tekserve!
 
Originally posted by soilchmst


The issue here is zip. Zip is no longer an unchanging storage platform. Which zip should be included, the 100, the 250, the 750. Why create a drive bay for something which won't exist in a year?:rolleyes:
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Uh.... right... like the floppy drive won't exist in a year in PCs? :p The Zip's been around a long time, and it will still be around in a long time, no matter what some idealists would like. Technology doesn't get phased out as easily as we'd like. Steve ate his words with a fork and spoon after he declared the CRT dead and yet now we have an eMac with what? A CRT.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to be able to get rid of Zips! The day that CD burning is as fast as disk-to-disk writing is the day I'll agree with you. Until then, a Zip disk is quick and dirty for transporting info.
 
Re: Re: I got one

Originally posted by Liske I did the same last night maybe they will let me have the new 1.25 since yesterday I paid for topline and today the 1.25 is topline. this is what I am hopiing for! [/B]
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't think Apple will do that. (Normally they do, but doesn't seem so this time around.) I am an EDU customer and I tried to order the dual 1GHZ yesterday (Monday) to not only get the $400 display rebate, but hopefully be bumped up to the new high end, which we now know to be the dual 1.25 GHz.

After placing my order over the phone yesterday, today I called back to find out the stinking rep didn't actually place my order! She must have known about the new PowerMacs coming, and/or someone told her not to place my order. She was going to give me the new dual 1ghz in place of the old model, and with the 17" display and $400 rebate, still charge me $3218. However, the new price after the $200 rebate is now around $2968. So I said "no thank you" and cancelled that order that was never placed and then proceeded to order the new dual 1GHz + 17" for around $2968 after rebate.

Also, I had a dual 1GHz and 17" display saved at the Apple Store for normal folks. I checked that saved proposal and found that Apple automatically switched my stock configuration old Quicksilver dual 1GHz to the new dual 1GHz.

So, what I'm saying, it seems you are SOL if you placed your order yesterday, as far as getting bumped to the new high end. You better get on the horn as Apple will probably try to charge you the old $2999 for the new system which is now $2499 (but, they will "graciously" give you 512MB RAM in your new system, at a $500 premium!)
 
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