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Apple should have dropped all complaints against Bah after the Boston case that proved he wasn't the thief in Boston. How and why Apple continued to pursue Bah is ridiculous and the reason for the lawsuit.

Yes because no one has ever worked with a partner to commit crimes to try and get away with it. By your logic, as soon as Bah was proven innocent in the Boston case, he would be free to walk in to any Apple Store in the world and take whatever he wanted, charging him again with theft is wrong on Apple's part after all right?

Apple (or more like SIS) provided evidence to the police, its the responsibility of the police to verify that evidence and determine whether its worthy of arresting a suspect or not. Apple doesn't have the power to arrest anyone.

Meanwhile, note from the actual legal filing:
"The warrant that police had included a photo of a suspect that did not resemble Mr. Bah, but police nevertheless executed it."

This one line alone completely exonerates Apple and SIS. If they provided the police with evidence that included a photo, a photo which obviously did not match the person the police arrested, that is the fault of the POLICE, not Apple.

Further, the lawsuit alleges that Apple/SIS used facial recognition software in its security cameras based on zero evidence. It also tries to tie this supposed facial recognition software to the software in the iPhone, even though there is no evidence that the facial recognition software was used in the first place, nor that its even the same software if facial recognition software WAS used. FaceID requires not just a picture but a detailed scan of a persons face using multiple cameras and close proximity. Its clear the lawyer doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and is just trying to throw **** at the wall and see what sticks. Also, he laughably suggests that Apple has never considered its facial recognition software to be fallible, which is again provably false. From Apples own documentation on FaceID and TouchID security:

"The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID). For additional protection, Face ID allows only five unsuccessful match attempts before a passcode is required to obtain access to your iPhone. The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed. If you're concerned about this, we recommend using a passcode to authenticate."

Not only does Apple openly admit FaceID isn't perfect, it points out scenarios where its more likely to match another person AND suggests that in those scenarios a concerned person should use a passcode instead. there goes another (pointless) leg of this kangaroo lawyers case. Which of course doesn't really matter anyway because there is zero evidence Apple used FaceID for this situation to begin with.

Oh, and another interesting point, no where in the lawsuit is there any indication that the store (or stores) in question accepted the lost learners permit as proof of identity. The detective suspected it, but thats it. This lawsuit is based on two statements by the detective, one of them a supposition!

I am sorry the kid had to go through this, it sounds like a really awful situation to have to deal with, but even IF we accept the premises in this case:
1. Apple/SIS accepted the learners permit as ID at least once
2. Apple/SIS used some kind of facial identification software in its store cameras to try and track suspects across multiple stores (I wouldn't be surprised if they did honestly, it makes sense)
Apple/SIS are still not responsible for the police arresting someone who didn't match the evidence provided to them. By the lawsuits own admission, it was the police who made the arrest despite the mismatch between the photo and Mr. Bah. Apple wasn't involved with that at all.
 
Yes because no one has ever worked with a partner to commit crimes to try and get away with it. By your logic, as soon as Bah was proven innocent in the Boston case, he would be free to walk in to any Apple Store in the world and take whatever he wanted, charging him again with theft is wrong on Apple's part after all right?

There is nothing to suggest that the suspect worked with anyone else. He's in at least two videos from Apple/SIS by himself. The Boston video is from May, the arraignment was in June; yet the NYPD arrest warrant was executed in late November. Apple didn't perform due diligence to stop the harm to Bah. Not even addressing the other nonsense you made up.

Apple (or more like SIS) provided evidence to the police, its the responsibility of the police to verify that evidence and determine whether its worthy of arresting a suspect or not. Apple doesn't have the power to arrest anyone.

It was the responsibility of Apple/SIS to provide accurate information in the first place. It was clearly shoddy. Not just in the NYPD arrest warrant, but in the first case months prior. Not to mention that Apple belatedly supplied the surveillance video (which they initially claimed didn't exist) that would have proven that Bah wasn't the suspect from the very beginning.

While Apple claims it doesn't use facial recognition tech in stores, SIS hasn't denied this and the detective from the NYPD stands by his assertion that it was used in the NYC Apple store.
 
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Ousmane Bah - Apple suspect.jpg


You be the judge. They could be twins! :rolleyes:

From Bah's lawyer, the Boston store video:
 
There is nothing to suggest that the suspect worked with anyone else. He's in at least two videos from Apple/SIS by himself. The Boston video is from May, the arraignment was in June; yet the NYPD arrest warrant was executed in late November. Apple didn't perform due diligence to stop the harm to Bah. Not even addressing the other nonsense you made up.

It was the responsibility of Apple/SIS to provide accurate information in the first place. It was clearly shoddy. Not just in the NYPD arrest warrant, but in the first case months prior. Not to mention that Apple belatedly supplied the surveillance video (which they initially claimed didn't exist) that would have proven that Bah wasn't the suspect from the very beginning.

While Apple claims it doesn't use facial recognition tech in stores, SIS hasn't denied this and the detective from the NYPD stands by his assertion that it was used in the NYC Apple store.

Apple provided accurate information. They provided photos that showed a thief. And they provided a provisional license with a name and address, which was lost by the thief. That's enough evidence for the police to go to the person on the license. They did that, and found Bah was not the person on the photo. Bah was a suspect, the police checked, and found there is no reason to believe he was involved in this in any way. Losing your license can cause you problems, but it was solved.

"The detective from NYPD stands by his assertion" - that's rubbish. He doesn't know anything about this. He hasn't watched Apple or anyone else using facial recognition, he wouldn't recognise facial recognition if it bit him in the arse. He is NOT a witness. What he says is HEARSAY. Bring it to a court, and the court just laughs.

Do you remember how the Unabomber was found? He sent out blackmail letters, carefully avoiding any fingerprints on them. Then the police found a fingerprint, the owner was in a database, and they went to arrest him. Turned out the fingerprint belonged to an employee of a copy shop that sold paper. And the employee managed to get his finger print on a sheet of paper that he sold unwittingly to the Unabomber. The police checked out all the customers and found their target.

You are basically saying that the police should have never looked at the finger print, because it belonged to an innocent person, and they should have never checked the customers of that copy shop, because almost all of them were innocent.
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"The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID). "
That's actually irrelevant, because the only one recognising your face via Face ID is _your_ iPhone. And every other iPhone can recognise that you are _not_ the owner if you look at it. But it doesn't work with a camera, so even your own iPhone wouldn't be able to recognise a photo of yourself.
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Seems Apple will have to answer some questions on the provenience of the inflicted photo ...
Security camera in the shop. There are thousands of them in all kinds of shops. Or do you want the manufacturer?
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He’s not saying that he didn’t know it was missing. It was more “My leaner’s permit was stolen and I don’t know I guess the thief used it as id at an apple store and that’s why my name is on the warrant”
But that doesn’t hold up because he said there was no photo and anyone that does business with Apple knows they are militant about all ids have to be photo ids
My understanding is that Apple found a piece of paper dropped by the thief. Didn't have to be an id, or a valid id. Like if you are 17, have an obviously fake driving license with your name on it, and lose it during a theft, of course the police can and will use that to track you. Or you lose a letter addressed to you. Or your notebook with your name inside. Anything with a name and address helps potentially finding a thief. Sometimes it's the wrong person, like here.
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Actually, other articles have Apple commenting. They deny using facial recognition in their stores.

Apple certainly has video surveillance in its stores, which would be able to capture an image of said suspect. But there's no way said suspect could know that "facial recognition software" was involved in identifying him, unless "someone" told him so.

First, "facial recognition software" wasn't used to identify Bah, unless the software is absolute rubbish - there have been photos on MacRumors now, and he looks totally different.

Second, there is no database that Apple could access to identify the thief. How do we know? Because they didn't identify him. Apple has photos of the thief, and hasn't identified the thief, so they can't.

Third, Apple has surveillance cameras. Everyone has. So they _do_ have photos of the thief. That has nothing to do with facial recognition, of course. That's just surveillance camera, like every business uses.

And fourth, if you have lots of stores, and lots of photos of thieves, you can just use iPhoto on your Mac, load up all the photos (all nicely tagged with location and time, as every decent camera will do), and for a few years iPhoto has had the feature that it can recognise the same person in your photo library. Of course it doesn't know who the person is. It asks you, presumably you would know the person on 127 photos is "Uncle Joe", you type in the name, and it shows you all the photos that it thinks contain "Uncle Joe" to confirm.

The same would obviously work with photos of thieves. Except you don't know who they are, so you enter for example "Boston Pencil Thief", and the software shows you pictures with the same person. Would be obvious common sense to use software like that. You could call it "Facial Recognition". But nobody in the store is recognised. Only thieves will be matched to thieves in other stores. So you would end up with a list of 16 photos showing the thief in 16 different stores, which would really go down well - and also would tell you who is most important to try and catch.
 
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and for a few years iPhoto has had the feature that it can recognise the same person in your photo library. Of course it doesn't know who the person is. It asks you, presumably you would know the person on 127 photos is "Uncle Joe", you type in the name, and it shows you all the photos that it thinks contain "Uncle Joe" to confirm.

The same would obviously work with photos of thieves. Except you don't know who they are, so you enter for example "Boston Pencil Thief", and the software shows you pictures with the same person. Would be obvious common sense to use software like that. You could call it "Facial Recognition". But nobody in the store is recognised. Only thieves will be matched to thieves in other stores. So you would end up with a list of 16 photos showing the thief in 16 different stores, which would really go down well - and also would tell you who is most important to try and catch.

at the most that's all Apple might be using. or rather the security company is using. or something of the level. until someone proves otherwise. someone willing to put their name out there. to tell us exactly what the software is, how it works, how they link faces to exact customer profiles etc. not some "unnamed sources that say they know something about this matter" BS.
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There is nothing to suggest that the suspect worked with anyone else. He's in at least two videos from Apple/SIS by himself. The Boston video is from May, the arraignment was in June; yet the NYPD arrest warrant was executed in late November. Apple didn't perform due diligence to stop the harm to Bah. Not even addressing the other nonsense you made up.

the due diligence is not apple's job. it's the police department's responsibility

While Apple claims it doesn't use facial recognition tech in stores, SIS hasn't denied this and the detective from the NYPD stands by his assertion that it was used in the NYC Apple store.

SIS isn't going to give out details of how they do their job, Apple hasn't "claimed" they have stated. and the detective has provided no information beyond "I am sure that I'm right"
 
Exactly! His original lawyer got the Boston case at end of June, with it ultimately being dismissed due to proving he was not in Boston on the date of the theft. Yet months later SIS and Apple sent info to the NYPD to have him arrested for a theft in NYC. The Apple+SIS video supplied from the Boston theft also shows someone that looks nothing like Bah. The suspect from the NYC theft (from both the photo and surveillance video supplied by Apple+SIS) is supposedly a different height and looks nothing like Bah according to Det. Reinhold. Apple should have dropped all complaints against Bah after the Boston case that proved he wasn't the thief in Boston. How and why Apple continued to pursue Bah is ridiculous and the reason for the lawsuit.

From commentary on law blogs, the theory is that Bah's lawyer is asking for $1B to punish Apple and SIS to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. The large amount is to hurt Apple as a small amount would be negligible. Remember, he had to appear in three other states (Massachusetts, Delaware and New Jersey where a case is still open) and was arrested in NYC. He missed several days of classes and his grades suffered. He may have to fight get all charges and allegations expunged as it could hurt his future prospects should a prospective employer or school perform a background check on him.

^ on the very last sentence I've stated this as a point of view a few pages earlier (it's in my post history btw) so I'm in agreement.

Can you provide a link to the information you're stating above please - I'd like to read more .... as this thread and news posted, although updated, doesn't yet have this information (that I'm currently aware of). Thank you.
 
Can you provide a link to the information you're stating above please - I'd like to read more .... as this thread and news posted, although updated, doesn't yet have this information (that I'm currently aware of). Thank you.

In my first post in this thread I linked to the lawsuit (I got the case info from the linked Bloomberg article) with the info and allegations from Bah's lawyer. The update with info from The Verge is where I got the quotes and additional info about Det. Reinhold, and he's quoted several times in the lawsuit and The Verge article and elsewhere. A simple search with "Ousmane Bah" and Apple produces dozens of news articles with additional info. That's where I found the Boston Boylston St. Apple Store security video, and the side-by-side photo of Bah and the suspect.

I would love to compare the Boston video with the NYC video and would love to know how Apple+SIS incorrectly linked Bah to the robberies since Apple claims they don't use facial recognition tech in store and SIS isn't commenting. I think it may be the case that SIS uses some type of system that Det. Reinhold refers to as "facial recognition tech" due to his investigation and info he obtained from Apple+SIS related to the arrest warrant and attempting to verify the identity provided by Appel+SIS.

One would think that Apple+SIS having the same suspect in at least two videos, and thefts from four different states would put 2 & 2 together after the Boston arraignment (and dismissal) in June to prevent the arrest in November, and the continuing complaint in New Jersey.
 
Apple should have dropped all complaints against Bah after the Boston case that proved he wasn't the thief in Boston. How and why Apple continued to pursue Bah is ridiculous and the reason for the lawsuit.

not Apple's jurisdiction. they report the crime, turn over whatever evidence they have and then the police handle it. as in the Boston police, the NYPD etc. Only thing Apple does after they report the crime is say if they want to press charges or not. And of course they will say yes. but it's on the cops to put the pieces together and find the suspects, not Apple
 
Interesting that a company which warns against the technological abuses of privacy, uses the same tool as the Chinese government.

But no surprise. In China they effectively merged with current totalitarian government. Look it up. Chinese government owns the infrastructure and has all the keys to access encrypted data. And they are using it for social / trust scoring. Just recently over a million Chinese citizens and companies got locked out of all their finances because of bad social score. And apple implemented same tools for all its users world wide
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-communist-trust-score-is-here-usa.2140994/
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Its worth a try at least - opportunistic, but worth a try. I would have personally settled for 10 million, lifetime of free Apple hardware and VIP invites to Apple events and internship at Apple Park 2.

You want an internship at a company you just sued for 10mil? What you wanna do clean the toilets? :D
 
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But no surprise. In China they effectively merged with current totalitarian government. Look it up. Chinese government owns the infrastructure and has all the keys to access encrypted data. And they are using it for social / trust scoring. Just recently over a million Chinese citizens and companies got locked out of all their finances because of bad social score. And apple implemented same tools for all its users world wide
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-communist-trust-score-is-here-usa.2140994/
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You want an internship at a company you just sued for 10mil? What you wanna do clean the toilets? :D
Where is the logic in that question? Why would I have 10 million dollars and go clean toilets at Apple Park? Also, there is a difference between settling and filing a lawsuit (basic common sense there). Qualcomm and Apple settled their disputes but they are not cleaning each other’s toilets, are they?
 
Where is the logic in that question? Why would I have 10 million dollars and go clean toilets at Apple Park? Also, there is a difference between settling and filing a lawsuit (basic common sense there). Qualcomm and Apple settled their disputes but they are not cleaning each other’s toilets, are they?

If someone filed a multimillion dollar lawsuits against my company I wouldn’t even let him clean the toilets.
 
If someone filed a multimillion dollar lawsuits against my company I wouldn’t even let him clean the toilets.
Tell that Qualcomm, tell that Apple who has filed lawsuits against Microsoft, but their software is still available for macOS.
 
I’ve been making the same point all along. Not sure what thin air you’re trying to grab at here.

Yes, as an 18 year old who, at best, has a part time, minimum-wage job, it’s gonna require 1 billion bucks to fix that lost job. For crying out loud! My own father has been breaking his back working for 30 years with a bachelors degree and his lifetime salary wouldn’t match a hundredth of that!!

If the kid had the composure and audacity to agree, “Yes... *sniffle* ...lets sue Apple for one billion dollars... *sniffle* ... cuz that will make me feel better,” then the kid obviously couldn’t care less about “damages” caused by this occurrence.

Was it wrong to begin with? Yes. Has the occurrence been wrongly taken advantage of? Absolutely! That is the point I have been making all along. Again, idk why you’re trying to argue with my opinion. You’re trying to take it down a completely different path.


No I am not. You disregarded the whole thing as noting more than “hurt feelings” and something that someone should just get over. I outlined why someone might not be able to just get over it. And you completely ignored those points altogether and jumped back into talk of the high $ amount asked and “feelings”.
 
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Why aren’t the news outlets highlighting the fact that Apple is tracking people’s faces without their knowledge in their retail stores? I went to see if ANY outlet made more than a mention of it, and they all just breezed right by the statement... sure, retail stores have cameras and could technically implement similar security measures (they might do so), but I am curious to know if they are storing those images and profiles long-term and if they are linking the facial recognition profiles to actual customer records... or if they are just using photos from past known incidents and comparing them with the people that walk through the doors... that is still pretty damn creepy, especially if it can result in you being falsely accused of a crime. Good thing I do ALL of my Apple shopping online...

So I'm curious what I am missing here. Everything I have read says that Apple does not have facial recognition in their stores. It says that after believing someone to be stealing, they provide video of said person to an outside security company to try to identity and prosecute. So until you are already suspected of committing a crime, noone has in any way tracked your identity. So what exactly are you demanding that news outlets report? That Apple records security footage in their stores, as does 99.9% of all retail stores..? what is newsworthy about that? I'm pretty sure everyone now expects to be on video anywhere they go in public nowadays.
 
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No I am not. You disregarded the whole thing as noting more than “hurt feelings” and something that someone should just get over. I outlined why someone might not be able to just get over it. And you completely ignored those points altogether and jumped back into talk of the high $ amount asked and “feelings”.
Did you even read my comment? I guess I will point you back to the fact that I destroyed your argumentative points by stating that the kid was 18 years old, with a part-time, high school job at best, if he even had a job. Even if his employer was dumb enough to fire him over false accusations as you idealized earlier, it would not require a billion dollars to fix the damages caused by that. Let me just make sure you are aware; that’s not a billion cents (which would STILL be outrageous), that’s a billion US dollars.

Heck, I’d gladly let the local police department come into my own house, drag me outta my home in cuffs and falsely arrest me if it meant I could still sue for $1,000,000,000 with the tiniest amount of sense after it all happens.
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Did you even read my comment? I guess I will point you back to the fact that I destroyed your argumentative points by stating that the kid was 18 years old, with a part-time, high school job at best, if he even had a job. Even if his employer was dumb enough to fire him over false accusations as you idealized earlier, it would not require a billion dollars to fix the damages caused by that. Let me just make sure you are aware; that’s not a billion cents (which would STILL be outrageous), that’s a billion US dollars.

Heck, I’d gladly let the local police department come into my own house, drag me outta my home in cuffs and falsely arrest me if it meant I could still sue for $1,000,000,000 with the tiniest amount of sense after it all happens.
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You continue to get hung up on the sum of money rather than the action.
 
Two years later and the plot thickens!

17 cases and Apple futzed up evidence either negligently or intentionally. They put this kid through more than a year of court cases in five states. These false cases caused his application for citizenship to be denied. And his appeal of that denial to initially be denied. And he still faces repercussions because of Apple's 💩 behavior.

Why Apple hasn't settled already is beyond me. Massively, criminally stupid. Maybe they're waiting for him to file suit in all five states, not just three. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Two years later and the plot thickens!

17 cases and Apple futzed up evidence either negligently or intentionally. They put this kid through more than a year of court cases in five states. These false cases caused his application for citizenship to be denied. And his appeal of that denial to initially be denied. And he still faces repercussions because of Apple's 💩 behavior.

Why Apple hasn't settled already is beyond me. Massively, criminally stupid. Maybe they're waiting for him to file suit in all five states, not just three. 🤷‍♂️

And then people will come and talk of excessive sum of money. Apple could do any amount of wrong by people or its consumers, and it will still find a seriously evangelist brigade happily justifying and defending.
 
The detailed lawsuit linked in my post.

i assume that you are referring to the claims that Apple intentionally deleted the videos that would prove the guy was innocent because they are just a bunch of racist dicks. I find that highly unlikely. companies like Apple etc generally locate and export the needed information. Perhaps the issue here is that the police contacted Apple and not the security company which is where those exports would have been placed, as part of the 'incident report'

And it's not on Apple or SIS to verify the identity of someone in custody -- that's for the police to do. If they didn't have solid evidence like photos etc, which they could have gotten from these bulletins going around, to compare to the guy standing in front of them, it's unlikely that the DA would move forward because any decent lawyer could get the case dropped within 5 seconds, 10 tops
 
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