Next Version of Windows to Incorporate Advanced Touch Features

[kirkbross]

A Microsoft blogger revealed yesterday that the next version of Windows ("Windows 7") will contain touch features with specific claims that the new features will 'blow away' the current touch features on the iPhone:

Don't care, don't care, don't care.

Give me a new Mac Pro.

 

[Clive At Five]

And I think that you need to WAKE UP and NOT accept the 'way things are'. That way leads to casual cruelty and an uncaring society - or havent you noticed the madness in our little world?

I resent your implication that I AGREE to how the world is, and that I've conformed to it. This could not be further from the case.

"Admittance is the first step to recovery." This is true in every case. If you do not accept that today's world is corporate-driven, you are living in denial.

Its actually worthwhile connecting your personal politics to your usage of consumer goods - makes for an informed consumer and better person.
Please try it.

Okay, if you insist... I buy only what I need, and rarely what I want. When I do buy, it's a long-term investment. This is evident in that my most recent Mac is a 6-year-old iMac. It still works, albeit slowly so I tollerate it. Instead of buying a new Mac, I'm asking exclusively for Apple Store gift cards for Christmas in hopes that I'll have enough for a Mac Mini. I've also self-built a budget PC (which is now 3-year-old) for my projects that require it. When my iPod broke down, instead of buying a new one, I cracked it open and replaced the HDD. It was stolen several months ago and I still haven't justified the purchase of another, even though I used it every day. I don't succumb to marketing, I don't buy on impulse, and my earnings always go toward the greater good of my household before anything else.

I'm as little of a consumer whore as they come.

What does this tell you about my "politics?"

I would stay home and play armchair debaters, but I have a family to feed and house and clothe and protect. And I do it with a little help from my somewhat human-scale computer, the Apple.

Okay, way to play the "Mac isn't a computer, it's a lifestyle" card. I've used Apples/Macs since I could first use computers. If anyone should be playing that card, it's me. However, I've been fortunate enough to be well-versed with the x86 side as well and it is hardly the sin you make it out to be. Yes, Macs are easier to use, yadda yadda, that's why we're all on this forum. But good freaking gosh, get off your high horse and stop with the holier-than-thou attitude.

People use Windows, Microsoft steals, Apple Execs are bloody rich and if any of this bothers you, maybe YOU'RE the one who's too plugged in to society.

I could start the day with Windows, but that would be like drinking Macdonalds mud instead of this fine French Roast coffee I am sipping.

French Roast coffee? From the coffee shop?

I smell a consumer whore...

-Clive

 

[photomaniac]

so stupid! haha

...this is the dumbest marketing ploy I've heard in a long time! ummm... 2010!!!! Who cares that Microsoft is claiming it will "blow away the iphone"... I can only imagine what Apple will have in store for us by then... poor poor Microsoft.. their company is fueled by pure hype and fear

 

[gifford]

not sure i would like to 'touch' Vista anyway. Would certainly have to wash them afterwards. A bit like prodding a turd with your bare hands.

 

[jellomizer]

So a touch interface expected to be released in a few years, Designed for high performance computer vs. small mobil systems. I sure hope it will be better then the current iPhone if it was on Par with the current iPhone it would be a major screwup for Microsoft.

In 20 years I will be making so much more money then I do now that looking at my income now would be a joke.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Somewhat fallacious argument. The Mac Pro can do SLI via Boot Camp. Mac OS X doesn't have SLI support, but it can be enabled (and works) via Windows. Check out the following for more info:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=612359&tstart=0

I will look for a way to enable it through Mac OS X for use in Mac OS X. Not that using Parallels or Boot Camp is a problem, just that i would like that tech to be native via Mac OS X otherwise I should just get a .... (gasp ) Windows running machine. And I am trying not to do that.

 

[Virgil-TB2]

financial problems might intervene in Windows 7

... I think, however, they realize that this is more of a do-or-die situation. If they release another crappy OS, it's over for them. Linux and Mac OS will conquer all...

I think I agree with your characterisation of "where MS is" emotionally and so forth.

I think they are "mad as hell" and really are going to try to "rework things from the ground up" this time, but I also think you are ignoring some key realities in your analysis.

As has been pointed out, they have both stated this goal and attempted it before and have failed to deliver. This is because many things drive Microsoft development efforts and only *one* of them is making a good product that will work for their customers.

- MS decided quite deliberately to scrap the idea of "starting over" because of strong business pressure to support older technology, there is nothing to indicate they won't make that same decision again under pressure from the same sources.

- Microsoft has not shown it has the talent to produce good code, let alone a good OS. It's not just a matter of deciding to "make a good OS this time." They have to change their entire culture perhaps.

- To really compete with Apple, MS would have to embrace open source and use a Unix kernel, but how likely is that?

The soonest Windows 7 could likely emerge is in the late 2009 kind of time-frame and if they really do start from scratch, perhaps more like late 2010 (or even longer.) By that time Apple will have moved on substantially being the classic "moving target." If trend continue as they are now, Apple could have something like 10 to 15% of the market by the end of 2008. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Apple will have closer to 25% by the time Windows 7 comes out.

You only have to look at a chart like this:

... to see that Microsoft doesn't necessarily have that kind of time to alter it's course.

Microsoft's goal is to make money first, and deliver good products second or third, and Microsoft is not making so much money nowadays. Personally, I would expect (and predict), that some kind of financial shake-up or reorganisation will take place between now and the time Windows 7 is released.

Vista is a flop and the assault on open source seems to be a bit of a failure as well. Balmer was 100% in charge of both of those things. How long before he is fired or sent to the old geek farm, and someone more reasonable and with better business sense like Ozzie is put in his place? This will at minimum significantly delay things, and perhaps even totally derail development.

 

[SiliconAddict]

*shrugs* This was to be expected what with the Tablet PC and all. MS is MUCH farther along with a touch interface then Apple. They have been working on this with the intent of integrating it into the Tablet PC features for years.

 

[Clive At Five]

Great. Now they're only one generation behind.

Well NOW they are. But in 10 years of OS X development, Windows was able to catch up in one severely delayed iteration. What will happen when MS has their s**t together and is determined to release another ~2.5 years?

Unless Micro$oft comes out with a completely new operating system -- and fast -- the public's opinion of Micro$oft will continue to be tarnished.

This is exactly what I am saying. MS knows this and they will do what it takes to make sure they stay on top. It's not about self-motivation. It's about self-preservation.

-Clive

 

[Digital Skunk]

Can no one see that Clive At Five is actually making sense, and that competition drives progress?

Apple's market share is growing and MS knows it, so they will be putting their best foot forward as a result. If Apple doesn't change the way they operate as well then many people may opt to head back to a PC running Windows 7 by 2010.

 

[bobjob186]

From now on just THINK before you write anything

Who was moderating your application to join this forum?

Obviously the same person who was moderating your application, since we both joined this forum in Apr 05. That's like saying, "Hey people with green shirts are lame!" And you're wearing a green shirt... good one bro.

This is not about "Fanboys" Apple does not survive because of "fanboys"
Apple survives because it innovates.

Maybe, and probably more true in iPods and iPhones, but then again, look at the new iPod nano's, go to the system requirements, and tell me what system it requires? Weird isn't it? The only thing they innovate in computing is there OS, which like I said earlier, screws over all previous users, so of course they can innovate. They ditch all the stuff that used to be amazing and go to a whole new technology that ends up leaving the last version miles away but it also leaves the users miles away. Think of PPC Macs, they seem obsolete don't they. Think of G4 powerbooks, I wouldn't use one if you gave it to me for free, 167mhz FSB? please that's crazy talk. But less than 3 years ago they were the top of the top...now close to useless to compared to the same priced mac laptop. Yeah they innovated, but what happens to all the people who shelled out $1600 for a powerbook g4 less than 3 years ago? Hence, FANBOY's sell their machines and buy the newest ones not caring about losing hundreds of bucks. So yeah, in a big part they survive from fanboys.

Apple did make it easy to set up a LAN. Microsoft makes it complicated. Microsoft makes it proprietary. Microsoft makes software that requires huge increases in hard drive storage every time they release something new. Microsoft makes buggy software that easily lets 14 year olds on summer vacation make viruses and malware to bring down large portions of the general working community. Microsoft makes software that ties people to buying more software made by them to get anything to work. Microsoft makes it necessary to buy a whole new computer every time they upgrade an OS.

Let's focus on your last sentence there. "Microsoft makes it necessary to by a whole new computer every time they upgrade an OS." Really? That's weird because I swear you could run Windows 98, 2000, NT(Best Version of Windows), Millennium, and XP on the same computer, only upgrading Ram and HD space. You can't even run Leopard well on a MacBook with 512mb or ram, you need at least 1GB, and that's even limiting it. So let's think about this, in order to run Mac OS the way it's supposed to be run, you can't even buy a regular MacBook without upgrading it. That seems weird. A company sells a laptop brand new, that can't fully run it's OS. If Microsoft made hardware you'd tear them a new one for doing something like this. But fanboys turn the other cheek and drop more money to upgrade a brand new computer just to run it well.

As far as the hard drive size increase and your virus comment, if you understand what it means to make an application or OS backwards compatible then you wouldn't even write this stupidity. I'll put it this way, CS files being able to be opened on CS3... beautiful isn't it?

"Actual computing" is about turning on your computer and being able to use it straight away without having to download MB of updates to virus definitions, being able to Boot in the first place.

If you believe that actual computing is using Mail, iCal, Word, iTunes, and the the internet, then I agree with you completely. Try running an exchange server with a bunch of windows devices (let's think corporate) on Leopard without having to jump through more hoops than a circus act. Try finding a useable version of MATLAB for Leopard and run some functions, or find STATA and run some regressions. I'm not saying it's impossible but when one day your OS supported the software, and then you update to the latest version of your OS and now it doesn't, wouldn't you get mad? I would, and have. I'm not even talking about Puma to Leopard, I'm talking Tiger to Leopard. So yeah, I guess "real" computing is relative, but when I referred to "real" computing I was referring to more than just iChat.

Take your ridiculous invalid and childish "fanboy" comments back to a Microsoft forum where it belongs. Hell this was probably written by The Big Ballmer himself.

I don't think I'm ridiculous at all, I'm being real and raw. I already told you I love Apple in my original post. My first computer was an Apple, and I've never owned anything other then Macs. But you know what the best part about my MacBook and iMac is? The fact that I can run Windows on it, and I bet you a lot of other people on this forum would agree. So just think from now on.

 

[diamond.g]

Vista actually requires driver(s) to output signal to video projectors. That's not the fault of the vendors. Heck, even Mac OS 9 and probably earlier Mac OS can connect to any video projector (AKA VGA monitors) with no need to find and install a driver.

Really? I haven't ran into that problem, it just found the projector as a standard display. No drivers needed. Even for the projector as a second monitor.

I will look for a way to enable it through Mac OS X for use in Mac OS X. Not that using Parallels or Boot Camp is a problem, just that i would like that tech to be native via Mac OS X otherwise I should just get a .... (gasp ) Windows running machine. And I am trying not to do that.

I didn't think there were any games native to OS X that would even benefit from SLI. (I mean no one here uses AA or AF or even high resolutions so what is the point? )

 

[sonicboom]

can't believe I'm responding to this, but...

But at least the Windows world doesn't waste millions of dollars a year making stupid commercials attacking the competition.

a) microsoft is a monopoly and doesn't need commercials for anything
b) the stupid commercials that Apple makes are making them money, which makes them not so stupid. More of an investment.

 

[zlinger]

I can see this happening 88 years from now... "Microsoft Windows '95 - Centennial Edition"

 

[bobjob186]

Funny how Microsoft not really blew me away before.
Not like the first iMac did or OSX.

Ever use Word or Excel? I feel like the whole world does, kinda blows me away how they created a standard... who makes that again?

 

[Analog Kid]

All good points, but let me just add as follows:

- MS decided quite deliberately to scrap the idea of "starting over" because of strong business pressure to support older technology, there is nothing to indicate they won't make that same decision again under pressure from the same sources.

Apple has somehow managed to make several severe technology shifts while maintaining support for older technology-- and they've done it with far fewer resources, in much less time, and with much less support from third party developers writing drivers and whatnot.

I think your point here is just a subset of your next one:

- Microsoft has not shown it has the talent to produce good code, let alone a good OS. It's not just a matter of deciding to "make a good OS this time." They have to change their entire culture perhaps.

The irony is that MS is chock full of smart people-- the problem is they're more interested in being clever, than being good. This results in a lot of unorthodox code that is difficult to maintain-- for a perfect example, look up their discussion of why they had to drop VBA support from Office. Lot's of clever ideas that made for a completely unmanageable scripting engine.

- To really compete with Apple, MS would have to embrace open source and use a Unix kernel, but how likely is that?

This, I think, is patently untrue. While Apple has done well leveraging open source and Unix, I don't think that's required for being competitive. This is a cat that can be skinned many ways. Starting fresh and designing a clean, modern OS is quite possible.

Microsoft's goal is to make money first, and deliver good products second or third, and Microsoft is not making so much money nowadays. Personally, I would expect (and predict), that some kind of financial shake-up or reorganisation will take place between now and the time Windows 7 is released.

Oh, I think they're doing ok for themselves... MS's stock may not be growing very quickly, but their revenue and earnings are healthy for now. Apple's meteoric rise is a combination of a small initial market cap, low initial expectations, and subsequent entry and dominance of a whole new market segment.

 

[Clive At Five]

I think I agree with your characterisation of "where MS is" emotionally and so forth.

I think they are "mad as hell" and really are going to try to "rework things from the ground up" this time, but I also think you are ignoring some key realities in your analysis.

...

Very good, I liked your analysis. I agree that those are very real concerns that Microsoft has to face.

While I especially agree with these two points: 1) "Microsoft has not shown it has the talent to produce good code, let alone a good OS." 2) "You only have to look at a chart like this [pic] to see that Microsoft doesn't necessarily have [much] time to alter it's course."

But I think that their coincidence may have an effect on their output. Never, since the beginning, has MS been in this situation. They've never been losing market share, and they've never had to write good code. Now they're losing their market, and people are realizing that Windows Vista sucks. Desperate times call for desperate measures and this may (or may not) just light the fire under their seats.

As for management, I've never thought Balmer was good for the job, (although he makes keynotes amusing ) and I wouldn't be surprised if they got rid of him. However, the MS squid has so many tentacles, it's hard to blame him for the mismanagement of a single one of them. As far as I know (and I would assume it to be this way), MS has a development leader for each branch of its business... Windows, Office, Xbox, Zune, I.E., WMP, etc. I would blame the internal management on the Windows team more than I would blame Balmer, although he's ultimately the one who has to pay the price. Regardless, I thought I remembered reading that there was a huge turnover of management types as a result of Longhorn's poor execution... so that new culture may already be in place, as far as Windows goes. I can't find an article though...

I guess only time will tell if Microsoft truly does have its act together, or if they will disappoint once again and condemn themselves thusforth.

-Clive

 

[Orng]

Think of PPC Macs, they seem obsolete don't they. Think of G4 powerbooks, I wouldn't use one if you gave it to me for free, 167mhz FSB? please that's crazy talk.

I'd totally buy a G4 powerbook. I'd be really happy with a G4 powerbook. More than adequate to handle my video editing. In fact, the plan is to buy one in January after I finish paying the xmas bills. My G4 Powermac is still going strong too. My G3 Powerbook is starting to get a little flaky though.

But you know what the best part about my MacBook and iMac is? The fact that I can run Windows on it, and I bet you a lot of other people on this forum would agree. So just think from now on.

Nice feature I guess, but kind of a yawner for me. I have nothing against XP SP2, it's reasonably stable, but I wouldn't make it my first choice. The best thing about any of the Macs I've owned is that they run OSX. But everyone is entitled to use the OS that best suits their needs without judgment. Go on, call me a Fanboy if you must, it helps me establish what level of maturity I'm dealing with.

 

[sphnx1989]

Are we comparing a Operating System on a phone to a operating system on a computer.

Well I think my iPhone about is at par or better with Vista.

 

[AidenShaw]

Look up "prior art"

Microsoft will be 'blown away' by the patent infringement lawsuit Apple will file

yeah.

This will be an interesting lawsuit, if Apple even takes the chance to taking it to court.

Multi-touch goes back at least 25 years, to 1982. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch)

The two-fingered "pinch" and "un-pinch" gestures were shown by Tog at Sun in 1994.

Microsoft's Surface computer has been shown in several incarnations over the last 5 years, and Microsoft engineers have consulted on some movie special effects involving multi-touch futuristic systems.

 

[glennyboiwpg]

Mac OS X has detected a touch. Please type your password to authenticate.

Mac OS X has detected a middle finger. Please type your password to authenticate.

Mac OS X will now shut down due to detection of two middle fingers.

huh?

 

[Clive At Five]

Can no one see that Clive At Five is actually making sense, and that competition drives progress?

Apple's market share is growing and MS knows it, so they will be putting their best foot forward as a result. If Apple doesn't change the way they operate as well then many people may opt to head back to a PC running Windows 7 by 2010.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

You also have a very good point about Apple. Though Apple is good about promoting *some* open source projects, they are very restrictive, and every single one one of their products depends on staying exclusively inside the "Apple Box." iTunes - iPod / AppleTV. iPhone - at&t. OS X - Macs. Steve Jobs - black turtlenecks. You just can't get out of the system!!!

And no, I'm not trying to start a "OS X for PC" war. It would kill Apple, I know, I know. Let's just not go there.

-Clive

 

[gceo]

Longhorn was simply overly ambitious. They tried to pack too many features into too tight a deadline.

So being 1 year behind OS X is overly ambitious? Stoked I picked the right platform back in the 90's then....

Poor Microsoft. They say they are going to blow away a device that Balmer said was going to bomb.

They sure do have their finger on the pulse./sarcasm

Figuring current trends, by 2010, they won't have much market share anymore.... go Linux, Go OS X(I)?

 

[GoodWatch]

You don't sound like a very good "IT Administrator."

Ahh yes, the TCO mantra. TCO is a means and not a goal. So Apple is more cost effective (‘cheaper’ is such a nasty word, don’t you think) than Windows. Because you seem so knowledgeable could you please do the calculation for me?

120 Windows XP SP2 workstations, all generic Dells. Standardised image containing a client for use with a core system that consist of two Mimix mirrored IBM iSeries i520 midframes. MS Office 2003, Citrix client, Adobe Reader and Lotus Notes client. Take PC from box, plug into network and start RIS. RIS is followed by unattended app installation. PC is up and running within 20 minutes. No user files are saved locally. Policies cater for what a user may or may not do. AD caters for the rest. Back-office consist of three HP servers running VMware ESX 3.x. All Windows servers (10) are thus virtual and that ESX cluster provides us with load balancing on server level and non-stop redundancy. Network storage is by two mirrored EqualLogic boxes.

We run a 24/7 business where time is money. I know what a PC including all programs and service (do we need service?) and personnel costs on a yearly basis. We use a particular flavour of Windows and the office suite for at least 4 years. I even know what it cost to build the images.

So, do the math and gimme above setup in Apple terms of $$$$ You may even use the Mac Mini! And most important: explain the added value of using 120 Macs in such an environment. And one more thing, because of our highly standardised and straightforward IT landscape we can do with very few staff.

Unix? Meh...

 

[Clive At Five]

I don't think I'm ridiculous at all, I'm being real and raw. I already told you I love Apple in my original post. My first computer was an Apple, and I've never owned anything other then Macs. But you know what the best part about my MacBook and iMac is? The fact that I can run Windows on it, and I bet you a lot of other people on this forum would agree. So just think from now on.

I'm with you on this one. I've been a Mac user since the very beginning. However, I realize that Apple isn't perfect... and that Microsoft isn't Satan.

I am shocked and amazed at the number of fanboys here who just throw their money at Apple. I love their products too! But where's the self-restraint?

-Clive