No 3GHz Soon and No G5 Laptop

[pjkelnhofer]

I hope you realize that FLOPs is just ANOTHER way to measure performance. Simply another form of a benchmark. Don't assume that its the "end all" benchmark, b/c that would be an utter lie. A benchmark, like any other, can and will favor different platforms, depending on the benchmark.

I can find other benchmarks where a dual G5 is beaten by a single Athlon64 chip. But that proves NOTHING. All it says is the dual G5 is not AS STRONG in that area. But certainly, it does not say that the Athlon 64 is "better" or worse than the G5.

Finally, some one with some sense about benchmarks. The ultimate benchmark for any computer is does it do what you need it to do, in the time you have and without problems. Find the computer that fits your needs the best.

ps. Nice to see thatwendigo posting again. We missed you.

 

[smurfjammer]

Just a quick question?

To all the PeeCee fans claiming the AMD 64 Processor is better than the G5 Processor, can I ask a small question?

Do you own a PC with a AMD 64 Processor...?

Because if you don't, how do know it's better? When mac users comment on G5's their normally own one or have used one, not because of their benchmark specs...

It's like cars (again..) - The Dodge Viper might be powerful and quick on paper but how do you know how it handles if you haven't driven one.

I have a G3 iBook and a 2.0 Dual G5 and use both all the time, the iBook I use when I go and see clients and G5 is the workhorse at home both run OS X, I don't care that the videocard can't run Quake at a super high frame rate, if I want to play games, I'll use my Playstation 2.
The G5 is a great computer and if you don't have one you really can't comment on it, just like I dont on PC's....

Macs are special breed...I love Apple so much, I'm calling my first born "G6" unless Apple beats me to it...

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Here's a tip for you - go bury your head in the sand. You'll be happeir that way.

You obviously don't understand the concept of setting goals - particularly goals where you rely on suppliers.

You also obviously don't understand the concept of making future oriented statements. No one has a crystal ball.

I think it's really laughable that the whiners complain about Apple being secretive, but when Apple actually makes a future-oriented statement, they jump all over them if they can't achieve it.

Get a life.

*applause*

I am sick of people saying, "Steve lied to us", "Steve promised 3 GHz by this year", etc...

He made a prediction, probably based on the best information he had from IBM at the time.

 

[Sol]

Cooling unit potential

The current cooling unit in the PowerMacs cools two processors. If the next generation iMac uses the latest nVidia or ATI GPUs and a G5 processor the water cooling unit in it would have the same work-load.

Of course the next iMacs will have great graphics at high frame-rates. They will also be cube-shaped.

Now that Apple is doing water-cooling we might finally see a quad-CPU configuration, maybe in the next major update of the XServe. Powermac G5 2.5 GHz is the first taste of next-generation computing.

 

[shawnce]

Apple, however, seems to be ashamed that they have a 16-bit bus. Today's Google search for "g5 hypertransport 16-bit" returns the link:



But in today's update that page has been re-written to drop the "16-bit" from the HT paragraph.... It now says


So, this must be a typo - otherwise they've shifted to 8-bit I/O busses with the new PM mobos.

A Power Mac G5 system has two separate symmetric HT buses. One that can pump 1.6 GB/s (8 bits wide) and the other 3.2 GB/s (16 bits). The faster one bridges the U3 controller to a PCI or PCI-X bridge. The slower HT bus connects between the PCI/PCI-X bridge and the K2 IO/device controller. So who knows why the person writing the doc picked what the picked.

Anyway for more detailed information look at Apple hardware docs for the PM G5

 

[AidenShaw]

thanks for the correction

A Power Mac G5 system has two separate symmetric HT buses. One that can pump 1.6 GB/s (8 bits wide) and the other 3.2 GB/s (16 bits). The faster one bridges the U3 controller to a PCI or PCI-X bridge. The slower HT bus connects between the PCI/PCI-X bridge and the K2 IO/device controller. So who knows why the person writing the doc picked what the picked.

Anyway for more detailed information look at Apple hardware docs for the PM G5

Thanks for the correction - the original Apple page seems to have been wrong, describing the "upper" HT bus as the "lower" one. It now describes the "lower" 8-bit one, and doesn't mention the wider one.

 

[yuphorix]

Can you cut it with the insults? Either argue the point or leave it alone, but don't try to take me down on ad hominem assaults.

See, that's the problem. I was never arguing anything that Mac's or PC's are better. I just nearly brought in the facts that Mac's tend to downplay the importance of RAM, HD, and Video cards even for their G5's. I mean, we can all agree that 256mb of RAM on the first two G5's and 64mb of video memory is rather weak. Yes, these things are upgradable but the systems themselves are already very expensive and apple's own upgrades costs alot. My example's of PC boxes were to merely state that in the other world, these other components are just as important as having a fast processor.

Somehow you turned my statement into some sort of Mac vs PC debate. And, even then you tend to favor apple by pointing out the downfalls of the PC and completely ignoring the components missing from the MAC. Oh, and your greatest argument was that the best card offered was something along the lines of the 9600 because the 9800xt and x800 was out of stock. You know that in the PC world, shortages are rare and usually don't last for long either.

You shouldn't attack everyone that brings up a PC in this forum, and you shouldn't use weak arguments.

 

[aethier]

The new PMs are WAY over prices i think apple needs to fire their marketing team and get one from the PC world becasue the prices the way they are Apple will never sell any macs and in 10years down the road apple will be no more unless they do something... but apple thinks their PMs or even their imacs are priced right... for what they offer.. 256mb ram and 1.8ghz..and 80gbs harddriver for 1999US u can get a PC for 1000CAN (around 750US) that is 3.2ghz P4 1GB ram 120gb HD and a ATi 9800 XT... come on apple if u have to take one thing from the PC world take their marketing.

A: marketting is not what raises the price, it is the fact that Apple reaches a smaller market, leading to them unable to purchase huge amounts of hardware for cheap. That is what makes it pricey. In the PC world, they have nearly all of the computer indusrty to sell their products to. making it cheaper as people buy huge amounts.

B: a pc of the specs you mention goes for 1999.99 canadian, and thats if you shop at tigerdirect which has the cheapes prices anywhere. oh and they didn't have the 9800XT in stock, so I had to settle for the "pro" when confirming your claim...

 

[yuphorix]

Actually tigerdirect does not have the cheapest prices, and most of their products have quality issues. I would never shop there.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

A: marketting is not what raises the price, it is the fact that Apple reaches a smaller market, leading to them unable to purchase huge amounts of hardware for cheap. That is what makes it pricey. In the PC world, they have nearly all of the computer indusrty to sell their products to. making it cheaper as people buy huge amounts.

Exactly, why does everyone keep saying that the marketing department has to fix the prices of Macs. Marketing does not have much say (if any) in the pricing structure of products. Apple his prices are as much caused by their small market share (no economies of scale) as they are a cause of it.

B: a pc of the specs you mention goes for 1999.99 canadian, and thats if you shop at tigerdirect which has the cheapes prices anywhere. oh and they didn't have the 9800XT in stock, so I had to settle for the "pro" when confirming your claim...

People are constantly coming up with PC "systems" that are much cheaper than Mac without giving specifics. What is even more important is that for a lot of real world uses the Dual 1.8 GHz G5 will beat the single 3.2GHz Pentium 4 anyhow.

Macs cost more it is a fact of life. It costs more to eat a fancy restaurant than it does to eat a McDonalds. It cost more to stay at The Ritz than it does to stay at the Econolodge. The price of Macs compared to PC's is a fact of life we all have to get used to if we want to use them.

 

[yuphorix]

People are constantly coming up with PC "systems" that are much cheaper than Mac without giving specifics. What is even more important is that for a lot of real world uses the Dual 1.8 GHz G5 will beat the single 3.2GHz Pentium 4 anyhow.

First off, most real world applications don't take advantage of dual processors. I think the main advantage of dual processor is the multitasking issue. Even then HyperThreading by Intel does a good job of managing processes. Also, there are two different 3.2ghz Intels. the HT one and the EE one. The EE is probably the single most expensive none server desktop processor. And it performs roughly the same as FX-53. Trust me, unless your applications take advantage of the dual processors, the dualies will not beat the high end Intel and AMD chips. But either way, these are benchmarks and we're talking about milliseconds of performance time. At this rate, it's all about fudging with numbers.

 

[csd32]

Powerbooks

Alright, you guys seem knowledgable enough. Most of you. Anyway, I'm going to college in august, and I'm getting a powerbook for sure before I go. I'll get the 15 inch; as equipped as possible, since I've pledged to my family that if they're going to spend something like 3000 bucks on a laptop, it'd last four years. So if I order now, and get the 15 inch pb, 1.5ghz, 80 gb hd@5200, superdrive, the best vid card offered (128mb, if I remember correctly), would I set? Or should I try to hold out for the g5? Seeing the initial quality of the first gen g4 powerbooks, I'm a bit hesitant to do this.

 

[Travl]

I mean, we can all agree that 256mb of RAM on the first two G5's and 64mb of video memory is rather weak.
you shouldn't use weak arguments.

The 2.0 comes with 512mb of ram.....I just bought one.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

First off, most real world applications don't take advantage of dual processors. I think the main advantage of dual processor is the multitasking issue. Even then HyperThreading by Intel does a good job of managing processes. Also, there are two different 3.2ghz Intels. the HT one and the EE one. The EE is probably the single most expensive none server desktop processor. And it performs roughly the same as FX-53. Trust me, unless your applications take advantage of the dual processors, the dualies will not beat the high end Intel and AMD chips. But either way, these are benchmarks and we're talking about milliseconds of performance time. At this rate, it's all about fudging with numbers.

I totally agree, but I also expect that with the entire PM line going to dauls, that Apple is going to focus on making its high-end applications, FCP, DVD SP, Shake, etc., take full advantage of the two processors. So when that happens while a non MP aware program may run 5-10% faster on a dual, an MP aware program could see more like at 50% speed increase. This is somewhere that Apple can take full advantage of controlling the OS, the software and the hardware for Macs by making sure that everything is optimized to run as fast as possible on it's high-end machines.

I was trying to say that while you may be able to build an cheaper system with an Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 EE (although I am not sure how since it the chip alone cost $800+) it may or may not be faster for a given individuals needs. It is more about personal preference.

 

[jsw]

Alright, you guys seem knowledgable enough. Most of you. Anyway, I'm going to college in august, and I'm getting a powerbook for sure before I go. I'll get the 15 inch; as equipped as possible, since I've pledged to my family that if they're going to spend something like 3000 bucks on a laptop, it'd last four years. So if I order now, and get the 15 inch pb, 1.5ghz, 80 gb hd@5200, superdrive, the best vid card offered (128mb, if I remember correctly), would I set? Or should I try to hold out for the g5? Seeing the initial quality of the first gen g4 powerbooks, I'm a bit hesitant to do this.

The worst that can happen if you wait is that you'll get what you could get now but not have the summer to play with it (not an insignificant thing).

You're not going to see a G5 laptop by August. You probably won't see a speed bump. However, you might get a better laptop because some parts were improved.

Note that Apple - like most companies - continuously improves and/or alters the components of their systems (power supplies, etc.). They typically only advertise a change when it's something big - not a component upgrade.

So, if you don't need (read "really and truly want") it for the summer, I'd wait. But, odds are you won't be too badly off if you buy one now.

Computers will always get better. Always. So no matter what you get, sometime soon something better will come out (I was very lucky that it took them 10 months to overthrow my dual-2 as king of the hill). As long as you have AppleCare, though - and please don't neglect that, especially on a laptop - you should be fine.

Four years is a lot to expect from a laptop in a college environment. If properly protected, it should work fine (my 1999 G3 PB still works, well, OK). But don't count on it making it all the way. But, of course, the folks don't need to know that right now, do they?

 

[jragosta]

Alright, you guys seem knowledgable enough. Most of you. Anyway, I'm going to college in august, and I'm getting a powerbook for sure before I go. I'll get the 15 inch; as equipped as possible, since I've pledged to my family that if they're going to spend something like 3000 bucks on a laptop, it'd last four years. So if I order now, and get the 15 inch pb, 1.5ghz, 80 gb hd@5200, superdrive, the best vid card offered (128mb, if I remember correctly), would I set? Or should I try to hold out for the g5? Seeing the initial quality of the first gen g4 powerbooks, I'm a bit hesitant to do this.

The rule is always the same - buy it when you need it and get as much power as you can easily afford.

Apple says there won'tl be a G5 any time soon. There's an outside chance of an update to the G4, but again I don't think that's likely. If they do, it's more likely to be configuration than the processor.

It's probably safe to buy any time this summer. Probably.

BTW, look around for deals. For example: http://macreviewzone.com/html/reviews/guides/archive/refurb/03/powermacs.shtml. At the least, you should get a bunch of free RAM when you buy it from a catalog house. You'll want a MINIMUM of 768 MB of RAM, preferably 1 GB.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Alright, you guys seem knowledgable enough. Most of you. Anyway, I'm going to college in august, and I'm getting a powerbook for sure before I go. I'll get the 15 inch; as equipped as possible, since I've pledged to my family that if they're going to spend something like 3000 bucks on a laptop, it'd last four years. So if I order now, and get the 15 inch pb, 1.5ghz, 80 gb hd@5200, superdrive, the best vid card offered (128mb, if I remember correctly), would I set? Or should I try to hold out for the g5? Seeing the initial quality of the first gen g4 powerbooks, I'm a bit hesitant to do this.

Four years is an awfully long time to "promise" your parents that a computer will last. You are not going to a G5 PB before you go to school. But for $3000 with an EDU discount you could probably get one of the refurbed Rev. A G5's, an iBook, and a third party LCD display.

That said, I currently use a four year old iMac with a G3 in it, and it is not going to be replaced anytime soon (I am not allowed to use my credit cards until I buy a house... and once I finally close I suspect I will have more pressing needs for my money... or at least my wife will )

 

[yuphorix]

I was trying to say that while you may be able to build an cheaper system with an Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 EE (although I am not sure how since it the chip alone cost $800+) it may or may not be faster for a given individuals needs. It is more about personal preference.

Yeah, apple tends to tailor their computers to digital video people. But, this market isn't big and OSX being unix based is definitely a plus for programmers like me. And, it's not always the case that we want laptops. So, apple would greatly benefit by releasing something like a headless imac for people who don't need dual processor and don't want to spend a huge amount of money.

 

[aethier]

Actually tigerdirect does not have the cheapest prices, and most of their products have quality issues. I would never shop there.

They are the cheapest i have found, and yeah there products are cheap if you buy cheap models, but i am sure their corsair ram is just as good as what ever other reseller sells (its not like corsair says "hmm, this is going to tiger direct, lets make it ultra crappy)...

buy their name brand products like my friends who use pc do, and you don't have any problems

aethier

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Yeah, apple tends to tailor their computers to digital video people. But, this market isn't big and OSX being unix based is definitely a plus for programmers like me. And, it's not always the case that we want laptops. So, apple would greatly benefit by releasing something like a headless imac for people who don't need dual processor and don't want to spend a huge amount of money.

Once again I totally agree, but remember that digital video/design is the one market that Macs are not only strong in, but also often dominate (you will find a lot of big companies with Dells or HP's throughout and then a small group of Mac in the design department).

I would love to see a single processor PowerMac or a "headless" G5 iMac, but what I was saying is that if Apple makes sure that Motion on a Dual G5 takes full advantage of the Dual's power it will make people trying to decide between a Dual G5 and motion and an Pentium 4 based computer with After Effects lean towards the Mac.

 

[maverick13]

The "no 3Ghz anytime soon" comment is not too encouraging. Given Apple's recent problem with telling time (similar to what women say about men knowing distance), it could be a year or more before 3Ghz. That is not encouraging at all.

No it will take 3 years to reach 3GHz.
Of course it will be less than a year!

Maverick

 

[jragosta]

First off, most real world applications don't take advantage of dual processors.

Nonsense.

Virtually all graphics oriented programs on the Mac use MP. A number of them yield speed gains of 70-95%. Even MS Office 2004 uses multiple processors.

On the Mac, you don't need to specifically write your app for multiple processors any more. You simply use threads and the threads are distributed over the avaiable processors.

 

[jragosta]

Four years is an awfully long time to "promise" your parents that a computer will last. You are not going to a G5 PB before you go to school. But for $3000 with an EDU discount you could probably get one of the refurbed Rev. A G5's, an iBook, and a third party LCD display.

That said, I currently use a four year old iMac with a G3 in it, and it is not going to be replaced anytime soon (I am not allowed to use my credit cards until I buy a house... and once I finally close I suspect I will have more pressing needs for my money... or at least my wife will )

Why is 4 years a long time for a computer? I have three Macs and the newest one is 3 years old. None of them are ready to be replaced any time soon. Heck, I can afford to replace my dual G4/533 at work and can't justify it (I upgraded the CPU to dual 1.25 last year).

Unless you're doing some extremely heavy number crunching, 4 years shouldn't be a problem.


HOWEVER, be sure to order Apple Care. I ordinarily don't do that on Macs, but I always do it on laptops. Laptops are more fragile and AppleCare gives you some extra protections.

 

[jsw]

Why is 4 years a long time for a computer?

It's a long time in a college environment, where things aren't always treated as nicely as they deserve to be. I don't think people are saying it'll be outdated to the point of uselessness. I think the basic point is that a laptop might be a bit vulnerable to theft or damage during four years at school.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Why is 4 years a long time for a computer? I have three Macs and the newest one is 3 years old. None of them are ready to be replaced any time soon. Heck, I can afford to replace my dual G4/533 at work and can't justify it (I upgraded the CPU to dual 1.25 last year).

Unless you're doing some extremely heavy number crunching, 4 years shouldn't be a problem.


HOWEVER, be sure to order Apple Care. I ordinarily don't do that on Macs, but I always do it on laptops. Laptops are more fragile and AppleCare gives you some extra protections.

I didn't say that four years was a long time for a computer to last (as I mentioned my Mac at home is a G3 iMac). They way he originally stated it was that his parents wanted a guarantee that his computer would last your years. That is a bold promise (it's kind of like "promising" a 50% speed increase in a year).

One good point though, in general Macs last longer than Windows PC's, so as long as he gets a Mac he should be in good shape.