No 3GHz Soon and No G5 Laptop

[yuphorix]

Nonsense.

Virtually all graphics oriented programs on the Mac use MP. A number of them yield speed gains of 70-95%. Even MS Office 2004 uses multiple processors.

On the Mac, you don't need to specifically write your app for multiple processors any more. You simply use threads and the threads are distributed over the avaiable processors.

Yes, this is true, but at the same time, how the threads are handled is different for each program. And threads are still a rather large process load, it's not like taking MSWord and splitting it into 5 parts, but rather MSWord might have a single process, and searching might have a single process. This is what I mean by multitask management. However, to have lets say Photoshop apply a filter on an image, that is still a single process that may take a while to complete. You'd have to rewrite the code to split that processes into mutiple threads in order to essentially get the "5ghz" performance. I guess what I'm saying is you don't have a 5ghz processor but rather a 2x2.5ghz processor so multitasking is alot faster but benchmarking is still limited. Intel have the same problem with HyperThreading, in the fact that not alot of programs fully take advantage of this feature of splitting the threads out evenly to allow for better multitasking.

Sorry, I might be wrong completely since I know very little about this type of programming. But this is what I've been able to deduce from my limited knowledge.

 

[Liske]

DUAL 2s for 1999 refurbed.

Its a deal at the apple store, buy one now.

 

[tortoise]

LINPACK is marketing Koolaid

Really? Then please explain why an AMD cluster with more processors has a lower score than the VA Tech supercomputer based on G5s?

Seems like that's about the ultimate benchmark - and the G5 wins handily.

LINPACK is a toy benchmark and has zero relevance to most supercomputing applications. Nobody in the business takes it seriously; the only reason it is so popular is that it is one of the very few applications that scales well on a cluster. Also, LINPACK is essentially CPU bound DSP code, precisely the narrow case where PPC excels. Using LINPACK as a benchmark is worse than Apple's infamous Photoshop benchmarks, because at least a lot of people use Photoshop in the real world for real work.

So congratulations, you drank the marketing Koolaid. The best general purpose benchmarks for high-performance applications, other than your own code, are memory and I/O benchmarks like STREAM. Hardly any application in the real world is a CPU bound DSP app, which is what LINPACK is. It is worth pointing out that while a modern Cray running at 800MHz looks poor on the LINPACK list, it thrashes the best PPC and x86 processors by an order of magnitude for many real world supercomputing applications, hence why people still buy them, something that would seem inexplicable if we used your theory.

For supercomputing clusters, the current "best choices" are Itanium for extreme floating point performance, and Opteron for everything else. The PPC stuff only looks competitive for DSP apps, and most of the people building clusters are not doing DSP-like codes.

Like many other people running performance sensitive apps, our codes are bound by memory performance and latency in particular, and so our heavy lifting is all done by Opteron systems. We actually use G5s for workstations, but they are no match for a nominally equivalent Opteron for the same work, neither in absolute terms nor in terms of bang for the buck. It would also be helpful if Apple produced a 64-bit operating system, but that is neither here nor there.

 

[dr.Zoidberg]

4 years...

my TiBook survived 3 yrs in a fraternity.....and its gonna survive 3 years at law school....a powermac SHOULD have double or triple the life, of a laptop, its upgradable....that alone should do it...These new PMs will last a very long time before they go the way of the beige boxes(which some people are still using)....its a great long term investment. especially going to school.

 

[tortoise]

To all the PeeCee fans claiming the AMD 64 Processor is better than the G5 Processor, can I ask a small question?

Do you own a PC with a AMD 64 Processor...?

We've got Opterons and G5s, both at 2.0 GHz and roughly the same price. For most things we care about, the Opterons are clearly faster. The G5s still make a very nice workstation though. Quite frankly, for most apps people won't be able to tell the difference. I still use a 533MHz DP G4 at home for most things, with little reason to upgrade.

So yes, I've used and benchmarked both. AMD64 is generally faster, clock for clock. But OSX makes a very nice workstation OS, and plays well with Unix. I don't need extreme performance in a workstation; that's what I have headless Opteron boxen for.

 

[Mav451]

To all the PeeCee fans claiming the AMD 64 Processor is better than the G5 Processor, can I ask a small question?

Do you own a PC with a AMD 64 Processor...?

Because if you don't, how do know it's better? When mac users comment on G5's their normally own one or have used one, not because of their benchmark specs...

It's like cars (again..) - The Dodge Viper might be powerful and quick on paper but how do you know how it handles if you haven't driven one.

I have a G3 iBook and a 2.0 Dual G5 and use both all the time, the iBook I use when I go and see clients and G5 is the workhorse at home both run OS X, I don't care that the videocard can't run Quake at a super high frame rate, if I want to play games, I'll use my Playstation 2.
The G5 is a great computer and if you don't have one you really can't comment on it, just like I dont on PC's....

Macs are special breed...I love Apple so much, I'm calling my first born "G6" unless Apple beats me to it...

Considering HP offers their a550e
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/cto/computer_customize_components.do

(model with Athlon 64 3200+) for barely over $1100, I'm betting quite a few people already have it. For custom builders, it is even easier when the Athlon 64 3000+ was released last December, b/c it offered a "low" end, next-gen Athlon chip for only $200.

 

[johnnowak]

The PPC stuff only looks competitive for DSP apps, and most of the people building clusters are not doing DSP-like codes.

If I had the money, I would build a PPC-based cluster for DSP purposes and nothing else. Shame I can't afford it.

 

[jiggie2g]

Can you cut it with the insults? Either argue the point or leave it alone, but don't try to take me down on ad hominem assaults.

Now, to get to your reply:
ABS Awesome Performace, which you were telling me to look at, has DVD-ROM and CD/-RW for the first two systems, and then a DVD-ROM and 4x DVD+/-R. Move to the the ABS Awesome Power series and you have DVD+/-RW drives, but prices that are a lot closer to being the same as the mac.

The rest really isn't worth even touching.



Well, you're dead wrong on a few things. First, there are no 12x DL drives, so I'm going to go and price out a Dell to show you how ridiculous your claim is.


Dell XPS


Pentium 4 3.2ghz EE
XP Professional with Plus! and Digital Media Edition
512MB PC3200 RAM
Radeon 9800XT 256MB
SoundBlaster Audigy2 (Which you NEED to get SPDIF, and you don't get SPDIF in like you do with the G5.)
2x 250GB SATA 7200RPM
12x DVD+/-RW (Dual Layer is around 2.4x, incidentally, butt Dell doesn't tell you that)
RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe
Onboard Gigabit Ethernet
No monitor (subtracts from price)
Dell QuietKey Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
Microsoft Works
Norton Internet Security 2004 with 15 months
Dell Jukebox Premium (closest approximation of iTunes)
Dell PictureStudio and Photo Album Premium (closest approximation of iPhoto)
Dell T rueMobile WLAN 802.11b/g (external USB, not built-in)
Cost: $3,721

Apple G5
2x 2.5ghz 970FX
OS X 10.3
512MB PC3200
Radeon 9800XT
6.1 onboard with optical SPDIF in/out
8x DVD-RW
Apple Keyboard & Mouse
AirportExtreme
iLife
Cost: $3,823....what size HD ????? Detail Details , u don't need Dell Juke Box As iTunes makes this both even being avalible 4 both PC and Mac.

What was your point, jiggy?

1. I never said there were 12X DL drives, just that it was a 12X drive i never specified that it would drite DL Disc at 12X ,

2. next P4 EE is an over priced POS , a smarter person would have gone AMD at that point for 1/2 the price.

3. you have a RAID set up on the PC but not mac , so either subtract it from the PC or add a 2nd HD to the G5.

4. and most important i was comparing the low end G5 $1999 range to a similarly priced PC and showed how much of a rippoff it was , in comparision

5. it seems like all u did was just add a bunch of crap till the price made u feel better about a G5 , i would really just get rid of all that other Media sofware and get Roxio's Easy Media Creator 7 which is the closet thing to iLife on PC and is only $50 after rebates.

 

[yuphorix]

3. you have a RAID set up on the PC but not mac , so either subtract it from the PC or add a 2nd HD to the G5.

RAID RULES!!!

Hey, can G5's mobo's support RAID?

 

[maverick13]

No i Would Have Spent the same money on a Computer atleast 33% faster , it's obvious u know dog Sh^t about hardware or else u would not make such a Rediculious claim. the only Thing BMW like about a Mac is OSX , external Designs and MOST OF ALL PRICE , APPLE is So Much like Sony ..a company i really hate.. They think if they just make it look pretty and slap thier name on it, they can charge an arm and leg. get away with selling an inferior product at a high cost (Clie/Vaio).

the only thing keeping Apple afloat is the GREAT iPod and iTunes , were it not for those 2 things u and i would be having this discussion over a PC and not a Mac. this is proof as thier market share had decreased every quater for the last few years and u can only shrink so much till ur finally gone.

back to the Hardware part how do u figure when every component in that machine i put togther is wayyyyyyy faser than anything u have in that over priced Cheese Grader

I think YOU don't know **** about hardware. The floating point performance of the G5 crashes not only Athon64-FX but even the Opteron.
However, to be fair, the Athlon 64-FX is a little better at int performance than the current G5(Hopefully the new PowerPC 97x POWER5-UL) will fix this...
Maverick

 

[yuphorix]

I think YOU don't know **** about hardware. The floating point performance of the G5 crashes not only Athon64-FX but even the Opteron.
However, to be fair, the Athlon 64-FX is a little better at int performance than the current G5(Hopefully the new PowerPC 97x POWER5-UL) will fix this...
Maverick

Actually the Athlon FX-53 is better than the G5 at integer computation as much as the G5 is better than the FX-53 at floating point. You can't have two processors running at similar clock speeds and roughly the same pipeline to have such a difference. The new PPC might close the gap a lil, but at the same time AMD will be pumping out a new FX-55. Not to mention, FP calculations aren't exactly used extensively in the most common applications.

 

[jragosta]

LINPACK is a toy benchmark and has zero relevance to most supercomputing applications. Nobody in the business takes it seriously; the only reason it is so popular is that it is one of the very few applications that scales well on a cluster. Also, LINPACK is essentially CPU bound DSP code, precisely the narrow case where PPC excels. Using LINPACK as a benchmark is worse than Apple's infamous Photoshop benchmarks, because at least a lot of people use Photoshop in the real world for real work.

I see. So you know more about supercomputers than the people who design, build, and use them?

Ummmm, right.

 

[jragosta]

RAID RULES!!!

Hey, can G5's mobo's support RAID?

Yes and no.

They don't offer hardware RAID.

They DO offer software RAID (built into Mac OS X).

Or, you can add a RAID PCI card.

 

[Mav451]

I see. So you know more about supercomputers than the people who design, build, and use them?

Ummmm, right.

Guys, I'd really like to believe either one of you, but I have no idea where both of you are getting your information. This would help alleviate the "he said, she said".

 

[yuphorix]

Yes and no.

They don't offer hardware RAID.

They DO offer software RAID (built into Mac OS X).

Or, you can add a RAID PCI card.

Software RAID is out of the question since it would take up system resources and sacrificing one performance for another is obviously not the desired effect. And, wouldn't PCI RAID not be able to pass the standard bottleneck that makes PCI such a poor bus?

 

[maverick13]

I see that some people don't think that reaching 3GHz in the Powermacs is very important. But they need to understand that if the Powermacs don't keep going up, the Powerbooks, iMacs, iBooks, and eMacs cannot move up either. And that's where the sales are. The 970FX (assuming that the new G5s use the 970FX) still seems to be a problem. The move to 90nm did not increase the clockspeed at all. Without liquid-cooling, maybe we won't even have the 2.5GHz in the lineup.

Considering that the G4 development is dead and the mythical 750VX seems to be only a rumor, the G5 needs to quickly move up in clockspeed and rapidly go down in power consumption/heat production. Neither has happened in one whole year. Now that the Intel development is stuck, this is the time when the PowerPC needs to catch up. If we don't see improved PowerPCs soon, the power balance between the chip makers will not change and we will always be perceived as inferior.

catch up to what? However , I agree it is the time to crash the others

 

[jragosta]

Software RAID is out of the question since it would take up system resources and sacrificing one performance for another is obviously not the desired effect. And, wouldn't PCI RAID not be able to pass the standard bottleneck that makes PCI such a poor bus?

Look up some test results. BareFeats.com is a good place to start.

Software RAID doesn't use that much in the way of system resources. It's still considerably faster than a single drive.

Hardware RAID - even on the PCI bus (or even better on the PCI-X bus) is still much faster than a single drive, as well, without using system resources.

I don't want to get into the theory. The fact is that both Software and Hardware RAID improve results significantly.

Of course, there's also Firewire RAID, but I won't get into that.

 

[jiggie2g]

DUAL 2s for 1999 refurbed. Its a deal at the apple store, buy one now.

This is what Apple should be selling at $1999 now not $2499 , if this was the case i would not bitch. i know people will say how can apple sell thier old top end model at 2/3's the original price. well after a yyear that what it should be selling at.

I know no doubt if we had a Rev b in March , we would have had a Dual 2 Gig for $1999 by WWDC. instead Apple releases this crap , and now I will be Getting an AMD machine as soon as the PCI-Express Mobo's come out for the 939 pin Athlon 64's.

 

[shawnce]

This is what Apple should be selling at $1999 now not $2499 , if this was the case i would not bitch. i know people will say how can apple sell thier old top end model at 2/3's the original price. well after a yyear that what it should be selling at.

To pick a nit... the PM Dual G5 2GHz didn't start shipping to customers until late September and in the first place it wasn't promised to start shipping until the month of August and they announced them at the end of June.

So it has been just under a year since the PM G5 2GHz was announced, around 10 months from planned availability and around 9 months since they actually became available (using the announcement date for the new systems).

So it has not been "well after a year" by any of the measures.

 

[thatwendigo]

Finally, some one with some sense about benchmarks. The ultimate benchmark for any computer is does it do what you need it to do, in the time you have and without problems. Find the computer that fits your needs the best.

ps. Nice to see thatwendigo posting again. We missed you.

My thanks, on both points. A lot of people don't seem to realize just how easily benchmarks are manipulated, and that can run the whole gamut from testing methods down to how they're reported. The G5 is a fast chip, but so are the Athlon FX, the Opteron, and the Pentium 4.

I'm hoping to be around a bit more regularly, but it'll depend on how bad work beats me down.

I just nearly brought in the facts that Mac's tend to downplay the importance of RAM, HD, and Video cards even for their G5's. I mean, we can all agree that 256mb of RAM on the first two G5's and 64mb of video memory is rather weak.

I'm sorry, what? You're right on the 64MB of video RAM in the bottom two models, but not on the system RAM. If you'll check the Apple Store, as I've just done, you'll find that it's only the bottom end that has 256MB of RAM. Also, the video is upgradable for a mere $50 to a card that is in all ways superior - the Radeon 9600XT 128MB.

And, even then you tend to favor apple by pointing out the downfalls of the PC and completely ignoring the components missing from the MAC.

Please, aside from hardware RAID and the absolute latest graphics cards, point out to me something that's missing from the G5 towers. As far as I've seen, there's nothing in a modern, mainstream PC that you don't get in the G5, and a lot of things that you do get that cost about the same on the other side of the fence.

Oh, and your greatest argument was that the best card offered was something along the lines of the 9600 because the 9800xt and x800 was out of stock. You know that in the PC world, shortages are rare and usually don't last for long either.

No, I don't know whether ABS has a record of shortages or not, and whatever your claims about them, you're not showing me figures that prove they will correct this lack. All that I can see is that the machines cannot have that installed at the time of our discussion, which means that it's a point in the mac's favor while we're talking about it.

The situation could change, but it was as I said at that point.

You shouldn't attack everyone that brings up a PC in this forum, and you shouldn't use weak arguments.

You shouldn't use them, either.

1. I never said there were 12X DL drives, just that it was a 12X drive i never specified that it would drite DL Disc at 12X ,

2. next P4 EE is an over priced POS , a smarter person would have gone AMD at that point for 1/2 the price.

3. you have a RAID set up on the PC but not mac , so either subtract it from the PC or add a 2nd HD to the G5.

4. and most important i was comparing the low end G5 $1999 range to a similarly priced PC and showed how much of a rippoff it was , in comparision

5. it seems like all u did was just add a bunch of crap till the price made u feel better about a G5 , i would really just get rid of all that other Media sofware and get Roxio's Easy Media Creator 7 which is the closet thing to iLife on PC and is only $50 after rebates.

In order:

1. You were being irresponsible, then. The implication of your words was that Dell offered 12x DVD-RDL drives, and this is simply not the truth. They use a multi-format burner that also supports DL, and which costs the most of any of their drives.
2. The P4EE is the only Pentium that competes with the top-end Athlon FX and Opteron systems that can be had now. Since you were the one who brought Dell up, I was operating within the offerings that they have. The problem with the AMD systems is that nobody that fits into the same space as Apple - computer and hardware only, turning a profit - makes AMD machines, aside from Alienware. We could go that route if you like.
3. I'll do this last.
4. I made the PC roughly equal the mac in power and ease of use, which requires an incredible amount of software. If you want a crappy experience, then be my guest, but this is a comparison intended to go feature-for-feature, and the mac is on par or exceeds the PC world on just about everything at this point. This could change in the future, but it's the truth of the moment and the past year.

Now, to get back to good old #3:

Dell Dimension XPS - chosen for 2 HD bays and other things the cheaper systems don't have
Penitum 4 3.4ghz
Windows XP Pro with Plus! and Digital Media Ediition
512MB PC3200 RAM
Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS (no SPDIF in line, 5.1 stereo and not 6.1)
8x DVD+RW with RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe
Radeon 9800XT 256MB
Gigabit Ethernet
No Monitor
Dell QuietKey Keyboard and USB Optical Mouse
Microsoft Works Suite
Norton Internet Security 2004 with 15 months
Dell Jukebox Premium
Dell PictureStudo and Photo Album Premium
Cost: $2,637

Apple G5 PowerMac
2x 970 1.8ghz
Mac OS X 10.3
512MB PC 3200
Onboard 6.1 stereo with SPDIF optical in/out
8x DVD-RW
Radeon 9800XT 256MB
Gigabit Ethernet
No Monitor
Apple Keyboard and Mouse
iLife
Cost: $2,624

Once again... You were saying?

 

[yuphorix]

The problem with the AMD systems is that nobody that fits into the same space as Apple - computer and hardware only, turning a profit - makes AMD machines, aside from Alienware.

Except you know that the popularity of AMD has allowed for many online smaller companies that build custom systems to rise up to challenge big names like Dell and HP. To name a few, ABS, Velocity Micro, VoodooPC, Poly Polywell, and to some extend Falcon Northwest (Even though they mainly make custom gaming PC's).

However, if you want a closer comparison of professional machines. Boxx Technologies would be a very good one. Although, their machines are very expensive even compared to Mac's, they do offer configurations that more or less rival the performance and features of servers.

I don't know if these companies make large amounts of profit... but they've been around for a while and are more or less gaining popularity.

 

[mvc]

You know whats really good about all this arguing...?????

...The fact that these days there is even an argument to be had.

Thank god for the g5, if we were still running G4's in the powermacs we'd only have postings like:

Aluminium looks more professional that plastic so Mac's are better...
PC's don't have cool built-in handles on each corner so they suck...
Everybody knows that gigahertz don't matter, megahertz are better...

Be very very grateful

 

[tortoise]

I see. So you know more about supercomputers than the people who design, build, and use them?

Ummmm, right.

I am "those people". Its no accident that I can pull compiler specific benchmark numbers from memory for a variety of platforms. The VA Tech cluster has been disparaged on the supercomputing forums, and rightly so. You can do very little on that cluster that will perform competitively with other hardware platforms. Google the archives of the cluster computing mailing lists, and you'll find all sorts of comparative benchmarks and test done by these folks. The "Top 500" list is a novelty in that it is an extremely narrow test that doesn't even measure the architectural features that make most supercomputers "super". A crappy DSP cluster wouldn't be of much use as supercomputer, but it would shine on the Top 500 list.

The fact remains that the PPC970 is a mediocre performer in most high-performance computing benchmarks. For supercomputing apps that are bound by STREAM-ish parameters, and MOST supercomputing applications are of this type, the Opteron eats its lunch. And the Itanium 2, while not so hot for most purposes, is the floating point king of the hill.

If you can't distinguish the difference between a marketing publicity stunt and a substantive project, then your opinion on the matter means very little. The fact that you think LINPACK is a meaningful benchmark clearly indicates that you have come nowhere near this line of business.

To sum up:

LINPACK is a CPU-bound DSP-ish benchmark. PPC970 is extremely good at CPU-bound DSP-ish codes. STREAM and related is a memory and I/O bound benchmark. The Opterons are extremely good at STREAM-bound codes.

Most supercomputing codes are of the STREAM-bound variety, and therefore be optimal on Opterons. On a major portion of the remaining code space, the Itanium-2 will outperform the PPC970 (e.g. codes that can't use the PPC mult-add instruction) due to superior FP throughput in general practice. The PPC will probably pick up most of whatever codes are left.

To put it another way, there is a reason that all the supercomputing folks aren't running out to buy a bunch of G5s even with VA Techs cluster. Because they know something you don't. I don't expect to see more G5 clusters than Itanium clusters, and Opterons are far and away the currently favored platform because they scale so well for so many codes in addition to being cost effective.

 

[jragosta]

This is what Apple should be selling at $1999 now not $2499 , if this was the case i would not bitch. i know people will say how can apple sell thier old top end model at 2/3's the original price. well after a yyear that what it should be selling at..

Very smart.

Apple sells 3 million computers per year. If they cut the price of each of them by $500, they lose $1.5 BILLION dollars - when they're barely breaking even now. They'd be out of business in weeks.

Of course, perhaps you think their volume will increase enough to make up for it. Do the math. Their gross margin on a $2499 computer is about $600. So, to make up for what you're proposing, they'd need to sell 15 MILLION computers per year instead of 3 million. A 20% price increase isn't going to do that. So, even with some reasonabl estimate of increased volume, they'd still be out of business.

What you WANT has no bearing on fiscal reality.

 

[jragosta]

I am "those people". Its no accident that I can pull compiler specific benchmark numbers from memory for a variety of platforms. The VA Tech cluster has been disparaged on the supercomputing forums, and rightly so.

Ummm, right:

http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story168164.html

VA Tech won the top honors from Computerworld for their cluster (as well as other scientific awards).

Thanks for proving beyond any doubt that you don't have any clue what you're talking about.