No Apple Digital Video Recorder (DVR) Planned?

[MacTruck]

i never honestly thought they would put DVR in a mac in the foreseeable future. just doesn't seem mac like IMO. it would be cool, but i never thought it would happen.

Yeah, I never thought apple would switch to intel either.🙄

 

[m-dogg]

Look apple obviously isn't going to put DVR functions in the mini. I have yet to read the obvious answer anywhere. They don't want you to record stuff from tv, that would defeat the whole purpose of itunes store. They want you to buy it from them. Why would they make a product that makes the itunes store obselete? Duh! People need to look at the whole picture. They still want you to be dependant on them.

I agree completely, and it really is too bad. It will hurt Apple in the long run.

What would have happened with the iPod if you couldn't copy your own music onto it? That you could only buy songs from the iTMS - It never would have gotten off the ground.

People want to be able to use their own content. If Apple makes it difficult for them, people will go somewhere else to buy the products that do what they want to do.

 

[joemama]

Uh, free?

I don't know about anyone else, but I get something called a "cable bill" every month. And I probably don't watch enough TV to justify it.

Downloading TV shows is not a fad. It's the future of broadcasting. It's not going to be long before everything but live news throws off the harness of linear broadcasting.

Let me re-phrase, I was referring to the major networks, where you can watch for free (with rabbit ears).

Downloading shows is the future, true, but I can tell you this from teaching television at the high school level, and more importantly, working with kids every day - they will not pay for shows, whether it's on an iPod or some other device. This is the generation of kids who grew up with the Internet, the ones who are used to downloading everything for free. Most have iPods and they still don't buy from iTunes as much as you would think.

The networks will someday offer shows from their own website, but they will have to be free. Revenue will have to come elsewhere. The Neilsen rating system is outdated, and companies are more skeptical of spending traditional adversiting dollars because of DVRs and viewers having the ability to skip commercials. As product placement becomes more prevelant in tv shows, the advertising business model will transform into one of "pay per hit," like current banner ads. The more viewers, the more advertisers must (and will) pay.

 

[HiRez]

Damn, that's a real bummer. Phil's comment about DVR functionality making Mac/FrontRow "too complicated" is rather ridiculous considering that Apple, straight from the mouth of Teh Steve, is supposed to be the company that can make complicated stuff easy. Seems like they should be able to make a better DVR with software integration than anyone else.

No, I think the real reason is that it would conflict with their new venture of charging for downloadable tv shows and other content. Even though they're just the middleman for content, they are finding themselves in a similar position to Sony, with conflicts of interest. And it's the consumer that loses. I'd much rather have FrontRow with a sweet Apple DVR than downloadable tv shows (which I will never purchase).

 

[KTYS]

So does copy-protected mean you are unable to record or does it mean you are not allowed to record?
-s

Japan uses a crappy broadcast system, but full of features, called ISDB...
And due to copyright reasons, every broadcasts are required to use Copy-once protection. This means that you are able to record to a digital recording device, but cannot copy to another digital device. And to playback, it needs to go through a tuner (or a TV, Recorder with a built in tuner) that has a B-CAS card, an IC smart-card that decodes the copy-protection.

The Mac obviously doesn't have a B-CAS card to decode the data, so it can be recorded, but since the MPEG2-TS data is garbled, it cannot be played.
But it is possible to record and view video that has been encoded to MPEG2-TS from an analog source.

The PCs sold here with Terrestrial HDTV recorders have a B-CAS card inside.

EDIT:
Oh ya, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISDB

 

[Multimedia]

Don't need Lacie For Top Flight EyeTV System

Lacie should partner with elgato and make Lacie EyeTV.

Hard Drive and TV tuner bundled with the EyeTV software.

All you have to do is buy a FW case and put a big hard drive inside and plug it into your whatever Mac you have and Plug an EyeTV 500 into the HD Case and you are good to go.

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[Electro Funk]

all TV broadcasts became Copy-protected a year ago...

That is simply not true... not all content is copy protected...

and furthermore that copy protection only works when you are trying to copy over DVI or HDMI... if your are copying over firewire (even if the content is protected) it should still work. Copy protection only prevents you from making an exact (perfect) digital copy... if you try to copy with some degraded signal via firewire, svid, component, composit you can still avoid copy protection per se... (not that your actually avoiding it, just that everytime you make another copy it gets even more degraded... so if you made 10,000 copies for mass distribution they would look crappy) HDCP prevents you from making and endless amout of pervect DVD quality copies of movies/tv shows... etc

EDIT: Hmmm... i guess you are in japan... not sure how things work over there...

 

[Multimedia]

There Is No USA NTSC Broadcast Copy Protection AT ALL

Originally Posted by KTYS
all TV broadcasts became Copy-protected a year ago IN JAPAN ...

That is simply not true... not all content is copy protected...

and furthermore that copy protection only works when you are trying to copy over DVI or HDMI... if your are copying over firewire (even if the content is protected) it should still work. Copy protection only prevents you from making an exact (perfect) digital copy... if you try to copy with some degraded signal via firewire, svid, component, composit you can still avoid copy protection per se... (not that your actually avoiding it, just that everytime you make another copy it gets even more degraded... so if you made 10,000 copies for mass distribution they would look crappy) HDCP prevents you from making and endless amout of pervect DVD quality copies of movies/tv shows... etc

I've been using EyeTV for more than a year now and there is NO SUCH THING as broadcast copy protection PERIOD. 🙄

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[gekko513]

All you have to do is buy a FW case and put a big hard drive inside and plug it into your whatever Mac you have and Plug an EyeTV 500 into the HD Case and you are good to go.

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I know that, but it would be more convenient to have both in the same enclosure, and it has to match the Mac mini.

 

[Electro Funk]

Originally Posted by KTYS
all TV broadcasts became Copy-protected a year ago...

I've been using EyeTV for more than a year now and there is NO SUCH THING as broadcast copy protection PERIOD. 🙄

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thats because you are recording over firewire...

as i stated earlier HDCP (High Bandwith Digital Copy Protection) only applies when recording over DVI or HDMI... Recording via either can give you a perfect High Definition 1080i or 720P digital copy... UNLESS it is copy protected... then it will not allow you to copy over DVI OR HDMI only... Firewire, svid, composit, component, ...etc will still allow you to record something that has a broadcast flag... (but it wont be near the video quality that you could get through DVI & HDMI)

 

[Multimedia]

Well My EyeTV2 Recordings from EyeTV 500 Look The Same As Broadcast

thats because you are recording over firewire...

as i stated earlier HDCP (High Bandwith Digital Copy Protection) only applies when recording over DVI or HDMI... Recording via either can give you a perfect High Definition 1080i or 720P digital copy... UNLESS it is copy protected... then it will not allow you to copy over DVI OR HDMI only... Firewire, svid, composit, component, ...etc will still allow you to record something that has a broadcast flag... (but it wont be near the video quality that you could get through DVI & HDMI)

I see no difference between my EyeTV2 recordings and the original broadcast. I crush them to mp4 with a Quad. Then they look soft. But they are pretty small while still Video iPod compatible. And the audio is indistinguishible from the original. 🙂

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[Bosunsfate]

I can't believe I just read through five pages of this. I was actually hoping this would end this silly debate.

EyeTV, El Gato, there's what you need.

I'd rather have Apple focus on building things that fit their business model than waste it on DVR.

I'm mean, it doesn't take common sense to realize they will loose money on a DVR release.....

 

[Electro Funk]

I see no difference between my EyeTV2 recordings and the original broadcast. I crush them to mp4 with a Quad. Then they look soft. But they are pretty small while still Video iPod compatible. 🙂

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im not saying that you cant get great quality over firewire... because you can... you can even get great quality over component connections with HDTV... if there is content that it wont let me record to my dvr over dvi then i just switch to a component connection and wallah... i am recording... and it looks really good... BUT... when i am able to record straight to DVR with DVI connection.... HOLY SCHNIKIES does it look amazing! (this is only possible when the programming does not have HDCP)

and i am only talking high definition... regular programming does not have hdcp....

Edit: Feeding a HD display via DVI or HDMI with a high def box will give you perfect 1x1 pixel mapping of a 720p or 1080i/p signal with absolutely no loss... and let me tell you... it is amazing... any other hookup via component, composit...etc has to be converted and therefore is degraded a bit...

this link explains HDCP better than i did... 🙂

http://www.digitalconnection.com/FAQ/HDTV_12.asp

 

[KTYS]

Hmmm... i guess you are in japan... not sure how things work over there...

That's right... should have written that. Sorry.
Copy-protection here is a lot more strict. Like I said, the MPEG2-TS data that goes through the FireWire cable is scrambled, and it needs the B-CAS card to decrypt that data. The Mac does not have a B-CAS card to decrypt the data.

Consumers do not have any (not really, but close) rights here. Japan's copy protection won't allow you to copy even for personal use... but that's the kind of copy-protection the TV stations are doing, and that's too bad. With digital broadcast, the stations will become the "king" of broadcasting... they can do whatever they want, and viewers will have to "obey". (Note that there are movements to allow us to copy for personal use, since some people are refusing to move to digital becouse of this copy-protection)

I've been using EyeTV for more than a year now and there is NO SUCH THING as broadcast copy protection PERIOD. 🙄

Check out where I live -> Japan.
All digital broadcasts are copy-protected (Cannot be copied to a computer via FireWire or Composite video... unless it's an old caputre device that doesn't understand the embedded copy-protection data) Analog Broadcasts are not.
I don't know about the U.S.... but I'm sure it's not as strict as Japan.

What I was trying to say anyway, is that if Apple made a DVR, it would be difficult to sell worldwide due to all the different kinds of broadcast systems.

 

[theluckyone]

My Business Major Side

OK -- we know that:
1) apple likes to control the 'user experience' from end to end. that just doesn't fit in with the whole complex TV source/standards/cable company in charge thing

2) they just started selling TV shows via iTunes

3) they're streaming "HD" movie previews

I think they're going to leapfrog microsoft and become the content provider (rather than the cable company). it will simplify the whole experience, justify those rumors you've heard about them getting into the plasma thing -- couple that fantasy with their foray into audio and you have an entertainment center on your wall.

also consider the possibility of not storing anything on your hard drive. it doesn't take up any room, it's backed up b/c it lives on apple's servers, it's accessible from other macs, streaming through the house, yadda yadda.

cable and satellite are old school. don't record on schedule and then play on demand...just go right to on demand....

 

[tack]

network dvr

It would be cool if someone built a dvr that was configurable via a web interface and was on the network so that Front row could access like any other itunes instance. I'd prefer that to something that plugged in via firewire simply because I don't have a tv but wouldn't mind watching tv on my laptop.

 

[Multimedia]

I Am Also Talking ONLY HDTV

im not saying that you cant get great quality over firewire... because you can... you can even get great quality over component connections with HDTV... if there is content that it wont let me record to my dvr over dvi then i just switch to a component connection and wallah... i am recording... and it looks really good... BUT... when i am able to record straight to DVR with DVI connection.... HOLY SCHNIKIES does it look amazing! (this is only possible when the programming does not have HDCP)

and i am only talking high definition... regular programming does not have hdcp....

Edit: Feeding a HD display via DVI or HDMI with a high def box will give you perfect 1x1 pixel mapping of a 720p or 1080i/p signal with absolutely no loss... and let me tell you... it is amazing... any other hookup via component, composit...etc has to be converted and therefore is degraded a bit...

this link explains HDCP better than i did... 🙂

http://www.digitalconnection.com/FAQ/HDTV_12.asp

I am not only recording HDTV Broadcasts over Firewire. I am also watching LIVE HDTV braodcasts that way on my 24" 1920 x 1200 monitor. There is NO Degradation this way. I am watching NATIVE 1920 x 1080p from NBC and CBS or 1280 x 720 p (interpolated up to 1920 x 1080p from FOX). This is PURE HDTV. Not fake reduced. It is with EyeTV 500 tuner and an antennae. There are NO TAGS. There is no DEGRADATION. These are NATIVE HUGE 6 GB per hour HDTV recordings.

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[Chip NoVaMac]

Some people are deluded, they want a Powerful Mini Mac + PVR for the bargain price of $499.

This is reality. Its not going to happen.

Not really. I would love something under $1000 that would allow for DVR and computer use on a HDTV set.

I am a PC user. An Apple PVR would make me switch (and is about the only thing that will get me to Apple). A larger-than-mini is expected, no big deal. 1000$ price tag is also expected. I would want HD. If Apple could do that, I would switch in a second. I have NO expectations of a 500 box... and a whole new line would probablr be best- a great-looking box with DVI-HDMI out. Apple could do this, if they wanted.

This is bad news for me.... 😡

From your mouth to Apples ears....

Well DUH. Of course Apple wouldn't cripple their iTMS by making a computer that records TV ... anyone who thought different doesn't know Apple. Apple thinks people would rather download a show than watch it on a schedule on TV.

There are too many channels and offerings to make ITMS a one stop shop at this point. I think that the rumors and the support of the rumors for TIVO killer is truly wanted, without buying an EyeTV for a Mac mini.

Most likely, one of the conditions for the networks selling their content on iTMS is that Apple not make a DVR. There's probably a lot of politics going on behind the scenes that they're not letting on.

No truer words spoken so far.

Just look at how Apple has changed the capabilities of iTunes in each new update.

Who needs an Apple DVR? The Elgato systems are awesome and there are several plugins available for EyeTV. I'm currently streaming a recording made on my iMac earlier (using the Elgato EyeTV 410) over Airport to my PowerBook 🙂

Many of us would love a single solution.

Spot on. Mac Mini + Lacie + Elgato + tvtv.com = Tivo Killer. It's here, it's now, it's...um... three boxes. But it works like a dream.

The look on the faces of my friends when I demonstrate programming my "PVR" from my mobile phone via WAP... well, they're either saying "Wow that's the coolest thing on the planet" or "Jeez you are a hopeless geek".

Edit: Mac Mini + Lacie + Elgato + tvtv.com + Toast 7 = Tivo Killer. It's getting more expensive.

This I can support. Maybe Apple is feeling the pressure of them taking over aspects of the market that their developers had to themselves.

Why would Apple release a DVR? They just released TV shows through iTunes for 1.99 Do you think they would provide a product that enables you to choose a free recording of the material? Of course not. Tv's are great for watching content and I admit Tivo's interface is nice as well however, Apple will make the make the Mac the interface; iTunes stays the interface. You download and purchase there, then stream to the TV. Remember, Apple creates products. It doesn't bother trying to improve on existing ones. The Mac Classic, Mac OS, iMac, and even the iPod were true originals.

DVR for Mac is dead. Go El Gato if you really need it. Meantime, wait for iTunes; that's where the money is; literally.

As some have said already, it is about the quality of the purchase.

Some of us are wiling to either save the show with commercials to a DVD for personal use, or do our own editing out of commercials for personal use.

 

[mambodancer]

no DVR? Not the end of the world.

I agree completely, and it really is too bad. It will hurt Apple in the long run.

Why? I've been using an Alchemy DVR in my Powermac G4 for the last year and EyeTV is another (probably better) option on the market. Before that I couldn't give a rats A$$ that I couldn't download to my Mac or PC. I had a VCR for that purpose (remeber them?). And when I get a new Mac, I'll probably get rid of the DVR and discontinue my cable service for good because I can now download exactly the shows I am interested in seeing, when I want to see them.

What would have happened with the iPod if you couldn't copy your own music onto it? That you could only buy songs from the iTMS - It never would have gotten off the ground.

Huh? You need to learn a bit more about using your computer if you think that you can't copy whatever content (you own) to it.

People want to be able to use their own content. If Apple makes it difficult for them, people will go somewhere else to buy the products that do what they want to do.

Umm, the last time I looked at my iPod I've got my entire CD collection (5000 songs), iMovie sound effects, all the music, podcasts, video podcasts, iTunes TV shows and Music Videos I've downloaded and TV shows and movies I've ripped from DVD's I own (using handbrake) some in full DV quality. It contains the entire LOTR trilogy, and about 10 other feature length films on it, episodes of Star Trek, the Simpsons, etc. The only thing I don't put on it is the stuff I download from my DVR because I just don't have the time and desire to edit out the commercials and I'm not interested in keeping the stuff I copy off TV for very long. Without exception, in my case, IF I DVR something it is to watch and then trash (a bit like podcasts). I think of it as temporary content. There is nothing that I can record from TV (movies and TV shows) that can't be purchased (eventually) later at a lot higher resolution than my cable company currently provides if it is something I want to collect and add to my library.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Umm, the last time I looked at my iPod I've got my entire CD collection (5000 songs), iMovie sound effects, all the music, podcasts, video podcasts, iTunes TV shows and Music Videos I've downloaded and TV shows and movies I've ripped from DVD's I own (using handbrake) some in full DV quality. It contains the entire LOTR trilogy, and about 10 other feature length films on it, episodes of Star Trek, the Simpsons, etc. The only thing I don't put on it is the stuff I download from my DVR because I just don't have the time and desire to edit out the commercials and I'm not interested in keeping the stuff I copy off TV for very long. Without exception, in my case, IF I DVR something it is to watch and then trash (a bit like podcasts). I think of it as temporary content. There is nothing that I can record from TV (movies and TV shows) that can't be purchased (eventually) later at a lot higher resolution than my cable company currently provides if it is something I want to collect and add to my library.

Interesting POV.

I used to have the Cox DVR. There were some shows that I kept, just because I enjoyed them again and again. With my remote I was able to forward through the commercials.

 

[PeteyKohut]

Didnt steve jobs himself say that there would not be any video on the ipod? And now look how popular that is.

I couldn't have said it better! This says it all. How many times has Steve and Company said...there is no way we are doing this, only to come out with it!

 

[Lord Bodak]

I wonder if Elgato can integrate the EyeTV software with Frontrow. That'd do the job just fine, and leave the flexibility to get newer and better EyeTV tuners as standards change.

 

[gugy]

I am not only recording HDTV Broadcasts over Firewire. I am also watching LIVE HDTV braodcasts that way on my 24" 1920 x 1200 monitor. There is NO Degradation this way. I am watching NATIVE 1920 x 1080p from NBC and CBS or 1280 x 720 p (interpolated up to 1920 x 1080p from FOX). This is PURE HDTV. Not fake reduced. It is with EyeTV 500 tuner and an antennae. There are NO TAGS. There is no DEGRADATION. These are NATIVE HUGE 6 GB per hour HDTV recordings.

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Sorry for my ignorance. 🙁
You mentioned that the Eyetv 500 records over the air HDTV. Does that mean I need only an antennae to record HDTV? I have regular analog cable and I understand the Eyetv 500 would not work under those circumstances.
So, I guess in my situation I need the eyetv 200 or unless I upgrade my cable to digital to use the eyetv 500. Right?
Thanks

 

[YunusEmre]

That statement sounds that much more silly after the dozen or so posts reminding of the promise of no video ipod...

OK, let me say this one more time, it will not be a Mac Mini. If Apple releases a DVR it will be a new product. You can still buy iPods that only play music right? It makes no marketing sense to make mini more expensive. Unles Apple thinks their target audience is not current Windows PC owners they may bulk up the mini with a DVR. As an investor I hope Apple leaves the mini the way it is.

 

[Multimedia]

HDTV is coming in every cable wall. No extra fees required.

Sorry for my ignorance. 🙁
You mentioned that the Eyetv 500 records over the air HDTV. Does that mean I need only an antennae to record HDTV? I have regular analog cable and I understand the Eyetv 500 would not work under those circumstances.
So, I guess in my situation I need the eyetv 200 or unless I upgrade my cable to digital to use the eyetv 500. Right?
Thanks

The EyeTV 500 unit can decode HIDDEN HDTV signals from your analog cable's WALL. It ALSO can receive over the air HDTV by hooking up a superior quality HDTV UHF antennae like the Terk TV5 - $50 at Circuit City - I use where all rabbit ears fail. Cable systems do not block digital signals so far because only a few know how to hook up a third party HDTV tuner like the EyeTV 500. 😀

They are mainly renting a decoder which you don't need if you have an EyeTV 500.

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