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No scrollbar arrow buttons in Lion!

Yuusharo said:
I have news for you, friend - Apple doesn't care how you do it. They care about how most people are going to do it, and in Apple's eyes that involves gestures. Sorry, but that's the cold fact. =/

Apple is changing how they approach computing. They are unifying the visual experience between all of their devices as well as how you interact with them. "Legacy" doesn't mix well with Apple, which means users either adapt to the new way of doing things or simply move on to a new platform. You're even seeing this change with Microsoft and Windows, where Windows 8 will adopt a touch-first UI that will span across their phone and xbox products as well.

Computers are changing, and that's a good thing. It's time to start realizing that or get left behind ;).
Click to expand...

Good point. You would have been more accurate to write "I have news for you friend - Apple doesn't care how you do it. They care about the newbies, teen-age girls and tablet users for whom Lion is written for."

On the other hand you can leave off with the change or get left behind stuff. That really sounds like Apple worship, whatever-Steve-says-must-be-correct, fanboy stuff. I say learn to think for yourself and operate your computer your way.
 
Cougarcat said:
I think it's time to get a new mouse.
Click to expand...

Ya think? :D I didn't even know they had mice without scroll wheels anymore. Besides, clicking on those little buttons is a pain. I'm always missing them when I try to click them. Get a new mouse with a scroll wheel. better yet, get a Magic Track Pad. With Lion it's a no-brainer. Once you start using either one, you'll wonder how you managed without them.
 
Is the bashing over yet? If so, I'd like to jump in and say that I found this thread merely by doing a search for "scrollbar arrows" in Lion. I have had Lion for about 3 weeks now, and am starting to get used to the Magic Mouse. I've had a trackpad on a laptop at home for awhile now and once I programmed the mouse to be similar to that, I got around pretty well. I'm used to the "old school" stuff, been using Macs for 20 years, but I can be taught new things :p

That said, I DO miss scrollbar arrows. I can scroll around easily enough on websites and in most applications using the mouse and scroll bars, but for some applications, especially ones that require me to do entries in text, I want the arrows. I have a spreadsheet built in Microsoft Office Excel (PC software, uggh! that's probably why I miss the arrows -- it's not native Mac software, so doesn't behave the way real Mac software does) and if I simply scroll with the fingertip movements, I can move anywhere from several lines to several pages. It doesn't matter how much I play with the sensitivity of the mouse either.

Does anyone know if any software is available yet that adds those arrows back? If I could add them only to Excel, my complaints about this iMac would be just about solved. I've tried all the apps mentioned here -- Deeper, BTT, and TinkerTool. None add those. If anyone knows of anything that can help, I'd sure appreciate it!
 
I also failed to mention, but felt it enough to reply again just to mention that I do have a couple of applications that do not allow mouse scrolling at all. For that I absolutely must have the scrollbars turned on, and having those arrows would be just that much more useful. Until everything is equal for all applications, I feel like having an option to have or not have the arrows would be the best solution. All you that don't want it, turn them off. For those of us that feel it's beneficial, and have applications that require them, let us have it (at least until those developers come up to this century!).
 
spstanley said:
I use a graphics tablet. Guess that didn't figure into their reasoning.
Click to expand...

I solved my problem by getting the Wacom Pen & Touch. Now I can use gestures like fine scrolling when I need to, without killing myself by using a mouse. Maybe one day we won't even have scroll bars, and I'll be using the Wacom Brain Wave, but until then the Pen & Touch is fantastic.
 
I'm with the OP and several others that miss the scrollbar options...and I'm amazed at all the smug, snide, juvenile, and otherwise unhelpful comments and putdowns about wanting to have this feature posted in this thread...

Just as much as those of you that like not having the arrows have the right to like it that way and use your Mac that way, it seems to me that those of us that like the arrows for whatever reason, should have the ability to use them too.

All Apple has to do is to provide a checkbox in preferences to toggle the arrows on or off as the user wishes, then everyone here would get what they want (arrows or no arrows). What's wrong with that?

:rolleyes:
 
In defence of Neuropulse and the scroll arrows

A few words (and a specific example) in defence of Neuropulse and his sorrow at the passing of the scrollbar arrows. I, too, share his sense of loss and frustration.

Why, you ask? I have a magic mouse with a lovely scroll function. And a trackpad and arrow keys on my MacBook Pro.

However, all of these fail to do the specific function previously executed by the scroll arrows in Microsoft Excel. And some people, myself included, spend a lot of time in Excel.

Specifically, the arrow buttons on the scroll bar used to move the workbook page down (or up) one line or left or right one column. Arrow keys do not cut it as they only move the selected cell and not the page. Moving the scrollbar (or using the scroll functionality on my Magic Mouse) does not cut it as it is difficult to execute fine control of the screen movement, particularly on a large workbook (in which case, moving the scroll bar even a millimetre can shift the display an entire page or even more). It is very often the case that I will have a particular cell selected, say in the middle of the page, and want to keep it there, while I shift the screen a few lines or a few columns in order to see a value that is right off the edge of the page. This was a simple task using our now-departed arrow buttons, but significantly less so with the other approaches described above.

Neuropulse, I'm with you, buddy.
 
Let Apple Know....

Update

After posting above, I went to Apple website and found the place where you can give Apple feedback...so, politely requested that they provide a preference setting to get the arrows back!

So, those of you that would like the arrow option, please do the same, take a minute and go over to Apple and request that this be added into Lion.

:)
 
Missing Vertical/Horizontal Scrolling Arrows workaround in OSX Lion

Hi All,
I am equally disappointed in Apples decision to exclude for no real reason the Vertical/Horizontal Scrolling Arrows. As a user of audio restoration software, I always have to zoom in to finer details of a wave file and backward/forward scrolling with the "horizontal" arrows was part of the process and quite intuitive.
However, since Lion came along they have disappeared from our new jungle.
My workaround is to hold SHIFT whilst using the mouse wheel to SCROLL either UP or DOWN. My wave file moves in fine increments in exactly the way I want. My CURSOR arrow/tool can be either in the wave file window or in the scroll bar avenue.
This works for my needs and maybe yours too:)
I hope you can get some use from this simple workaround but I also hope Apple bring back the simple arrows but much more important than they realise. Not everybody likes a track pad or can use it in the same way intuitively for their own purposes. At least put it back as an OPTION in System Preferences... How hard could that be??
 
thanks for the tip!

Leftydude said:
Hi All,
As a user of audio restoration software, I always have to zoom in to finer details of a wave file and backward/forward scrolling with the "horizontal" arrows was part of the process and quite intuitive ... My workaround is to hold SHIFT whilst using the mouse wheel to SCROLL either UP or DOWN. My wave file moves in fine increments in exactly the way I want. My CURSOR arrow/tool can be either in the wave file window or in the scroll bar avenue.
This works for my needs and maybe yours too:)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip Leftydude, I'll give that a try when I replace my mouse with the broken scroll wheel — do you know if it works in other apps as well? If so, I'll replace the mouse sooner rather than later. (more below ...)

Leftydude said:
I hope you can get some use from this simple workaround but I also hope Apple bring back the simple arrows ... more important than they realise. Not everybody likes a track pad or can use it in the same way intuitively for their own purposes. At least put it back as an OPTION in System Preferences... How hard could that be??
Click to expand...

For those of you who derisively suggest "get a track pad" etc., some of us are trying to work with what we have as much as possible, either for budgetary reasons or because we want to make the most use of gadgetry that isn't entirely dead; my mouse isn't ready for the landfill just yet, even though the scrolling function doesn't work anymore, and the arrow option would allow me to make the best use of what I have. (As computer users we all know that replacing gear is part of the deal, but after having done a lot of that over the years, I'm more and more interested in making things work for as long as possible before the inevitable.)

Lion does give the option to turn on scrollbars, and I agree with Leftydude and others that the option for arrows should have been included as well. As someone else on these forums has noted, it's about PRECISION — especially when working with large files or collections of files, or specialty apps like audio editors — and a CUSTOM user experience, whereby everyone's preferred, individual workflow can be accommodated by setting personal preferences, depending on which apps are being used and in what ways.

For people whose user experience is mostly web surfing, watching videos or playing games, scrollbar arrows may very well be moot — but for many of the rest of us they are still a useful tool.
 
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Leftydude said:
Hi All,
I am equally disappointed in Apples decision to exclude for no real reason the Vertical/Horizontal Scrolling Arrows. As a user of audio restoration software, I always have to zoom in to finer details of a wave file and backward/forward scrolling with the "horizontal" arrows was part of the process and quite intuitive.
However, since Lion came along they have disappeared from our new jungle.
My workaround is to hold SHIFT whilst using the mouse wheel to SCROLL either UP or DOWN. My wave file moves in fine increments in exactly the way I want. My CURSOR arrow/tool can be either in the wave file window or in the scroll bar avenue.
This works for my needs and maybe yours too:)
I hope you can get some use from this simple workaround but I also hope Apple bring back the simple arrows but much more important than they realise. Not everybody likes a track pad or can use it in the same way intuitively for their own purposes. At least put it back as an OPTION in System Preferences... How hard could that be??
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I totally didn't understand what you're saying. I'm just confused at why using the arrow keys on your keyboard won't work. Isn't that a better option anyways?
 
NMF said:
It's 2012 and people still click the arrows to scroll...
Click to expand...

I'll make a petition for Apple to bring back the 5.25 floppy drive. I still have five of those and they are not ready for landfill yet!!!


@issdrbrg

Might have been a good idea to spend $10 to replace a broken mouse, instead of $29 to replace a working operating system.
 
missing the point

NMF said:
It's 2012 and people still click the arrows to scroll...
Click to expand...

Arrows are not used for scrolling, in my experience (and in my personal workflow); they are used for incremental moves within a large file or a large list of files when scrolling or clicking within the scrollbar makes too large a jump.

With all due respect, what year this is has nothing to do with the functionality being discussed here ... the bottom line question is:

"Can I use my Mac the way I want to re: the purposes I use it for?"

If you have done any digging on any of the Mac user forums re: this topic, you will have noticed there are a number of users whose specific needs (depending on the software/files they're working with) were addressed by the scrollbar arrows. Since these needs differ from person to person and situation to situation, there is rarely a single way to do anything that works for everyone, which is why there are user preference settings in the first place.

In addition, apps are not coded according to a single set of "standard" UI guidelines; every app has its own idiosyncrasies, and not all of them are optimized for the newly simplified Lion UI environment.
 
thundersteele said:
I'll make a petition for Apple to bring back the 5.25 floppy drive. I still have five of those and they are not ready for landfill yet!!!
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that you could wring any functionality out of those! ;-)

Technology that is truly obsolete is better put to use by "repurposing"; for instance there's some cool multimedia art made from old disks:
http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2011/06/02/artist-turns-floppy-disks-into-striking-artwork-video/

Other practical/less practical ideas:
http://www.designboom.com/history/floppydisk.html

The point is to make what still works do that in the best way it can.

----------
Yumunum said:
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I totally didn't understand what you're saying. I'm just confused at why using the arrow keys on your keyboard won't work. Isn't that a better option anyways?
Click to expand...

The arrow keys do different things in different apps; for instance in Mail, they skip to the next message instead of scrolling the entire window of message headings.

----------
thundersteele said:
Might have been a good idea to spend $10 to replace a broken mouse, instead of $29 to replace a working operating system.
Click to expand...

I didn't spend money on the OS, it came with my MacMini Server ... I'm still using my MBP as well and using Snow Leopard on that with the trackpad.

There are pluses and minuses for each OS, but the point remains that with something as complex and multifunctional as the Mac, power users should be able to tweak their preferences and not be confined to a simplified UI that doesn't accommodate the fine-tuning that would improve their workflow.
 
Yumunum said:
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I totally didn't understand what you're saying. I'm just confused at why using the arrow keys on your keyboard won't work. Isn't that a better option anyways?
Click to expand...

The arrow key is no good for long documents because it also moves the cursor. i.e. working with an Excel spreadsheet with 10,000+ lines. It is great to scroll to near the bottom and then use the arrows to get to the correct line in view, which you can then use to select entire sections because the cursor is still at the top.

A scroll wheel does not provide the level of precision that the arrow buttons do. That is one reason why they would be used.
 
I am surprised and scared of you guys

I have a Macbook with a trackpad (so I can do gestures). I also have a magic mouse, which is quite good, specially if you compare to past Apple Mouses, which were crap. I really like using both of them.

But that has nothing to do with evolution or removing arrows from the scrollbar. There are a series of programs (apps if you prefer) that benefit a billionfold in the existence of those harmless arrows. So many examples that I can barely imagine WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH would they just get rid of it?

I mean, even if Apple wanted to push us to this change, why not making the stupid arrows an option at SysPrefs pane? You want them? Turn them on! You don't? Turn them off! So simple! Also, it is already there, has already been developed and all, there is no real pain on adding that! But there is a huge pain for many people with many uses if they are not there!

What makes this even more ridiculous is that the PROs are the ones that suffer more. People that use Photoshop, Final Cut, Pro Tools... People that work with a Mac REALLY MISS those damn arrows and there is no mouse, trackpad or alike that can replace them. Different uses, different things!

Try using a machine remotely, using a 13" monitor without those arrows! Try going through dozens of photoshop layers without them. Like I said, there are hundreds of moments where they are useful. But that is not even important! Even if I want to be a retard that scroll a big webpage by clicking on them, let me do it dammit, it is MY computer and there is not a single motive for removing them!

All the little talk on: evolve, buy this crap, try doing this, you are ancient (all the stuff I read in this thread)... just made me sick and scared of the human stupidity!

This forum (and Apple) had better days... Maybe Apple is worse than Microsoft after all...
 
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to all the smart-alecks in here saying to just gesture...

How do you scroll ACROSS to the next item, or next pixel.

I work in a music publisher and on the music side, we are unable to go to the next lyric, next measure, next number in time signatures, ACROSS. Without clicking and guessing in a scroll bar. Yes, we could set horizontal scroll to the minimum and hope, and then what? Reset it when switching to another app? One tool in particular only jumps 10 places across when clicking in the scroll bar. There is NO way at all to jump smaller than 10. Arrow heads would be ... perfect.

I haven't even begun to tackle the graphic side and see how they handle adjusting settings by 1 point in preferences and tool selections.

"Go back to Snow Leopard". Sorry, we bought a whole mess of new iMacs that cannot be bumped back to Snow Leopard without brain surgery.
 
you can always buy a new mouse with a scroll wheel.

I have been using windows for a long time and i never use scroll bar buttons to scroll. I used the mouse wheel instead.
 
Ok how can we go about setting up a donation account to raise $10 to buy a mouse with a scroll wheel for this guy????
 
Many of you aren't getting neuropulse's point about all of this. A magic mouse or trackpad, nor a mighty mouse with its scroll wheel are NOWHERE near as precise as what the arrow keys on either end of the scroll bars used to do. And if you aren't doing any kind of work or activity on your computer that shows you that kind of precision, then you'll think that he/she is nuts having this complaint. I understand completely and agree with the complaint and hope that Apple will return this feature or at least in a system preferences form. Just today I was navigating and fine tuning my iTunes library and creating bookmarks. That alone is a nightmare not having the precision of the arrows unlike the vagueness of the swipe or the scroll wheel. Even clicking and dragging on the scroll bar very slowly doesn't provide acceptable precision (and I'm talking about when you're working on a huge list file or folder; I have 23,000 tracks in my library, and it probably took twice as long as it should have). Normal scrolling or click-dragging (like on this web page is no big deal). I'm talking about crazy long or sizable files with a lot of information or area to inspect. It's not a matter of getting a new magic mouse or mighty mouse. I got a new mighty mouse from Apple two weeks ago, and it already only randomly scrolls. neuropulse also comments on the need for the precision of moving within an image one pixel at a time. This is a case of Apple forcing you to use the keyboard and the mouse/trackpad at the same time to achieve that kind of precision. Having one hand on the mouse, clicking other things, getting to where you needed to be, then clicking the arrows for other fine positioning; that was actually more efficient. As a suggestion to understand my iTunes comments earlier, try the swiping and scrolling within your own. And remember how much more precise you could be with the arrows. Same applies with Excel documents, Photoshop, etc. Many have complained about this aborted feature elsewhere - it's not unreasonable for us to be annoyed. The workflow has slowed down because of this. Chime in.

NEW INFO:
I just found:
LionScrollbars 0.5.4 is an app being developed by Dain Kaplan. It's listed at macupdate.com.
In the user discussion area at the lower part of the web page, he mentions he's working on adding scroll bar arrow functionality to his app (but it's not yet part of its capabilities, as of 04/28/12). May be worth keeping an eye on this.
 
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thank you for defending grannys

A:)ll of the information I have read id very useful. We like things to be the same, but there were very good suggestions made to help this granny.
 
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