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You’re right, but the reality is that the whole analogy doesn’t really work. Because while the iPhone may be yours once you purchase it, iOS decidedly is not.

True. You own a licence to use the OS not the OS itself. Like you do with movies, games and other content like stuff. Yet unlike games and music, this software controls the access to your device. The one who controls the OS controls the device So the licence should be regulated and not be treated like any other licence. I repeat the one who controls the OS controls the device, in other words, someone else’s property. That is the game that Apple plays and other Big Tech want to play, MS is silent for a reason. This leads the user in a position of control where he can either simply sell it and move to some other Big Tech hands or live with it, that is not really much of a choice regarding something that you own. As the “smarts” move to other devices, cars, houses, cities ... more and more control is passed on to these companies over their customers amd suppliers properties.

The fact is that there is a limbo in the law regarding the specifics of an OS considering that one cannot simply swap it our for something else, in fact Apple goes all efforts in not allowing you to do just that (Operating System). Adding the spiel on the side where if anyone works on the internals besides them it may turn into ... let’s say something dangerous. That is what this entire discussion is all about.

PS: Tech should be about improving people’s life‘s not control someone else‘s property. I refuse that as the only way to so it. Case in case, control the flux of money in and out of the device that it doesn’t own!
 
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I mean, they might as well just go after the entire free market economy itself and impose restrictions on what a company can make profitability-wise. I’m sure that would really go over well in ND. Might be a good way of eliminating ND entirely and having it become part of SD, as it should be anyway.
And that’s why this effort will never pass. A lot of the folks in politics dealing with this question likely have myriad licensing deals and/or contracts with many different companies/organizations. To say that the government has a say in these internal contracts means that any of their holdings could be approached/amended in the same way.

Fortunately, there’s no way to spell this out in a way that would ONLY impact Apple and Google’s app stores.
 
The problem is the seed has been planted and others will try the same.
The seed has been planted and squashed. If they’d won, that’d be one thing. BUT, if they can’t even pass in a state like ND, they’re definitely not going to pass in a state that has companies with licensing deals that they’d like to stay intact :)
 
I disagree someone is going to break the app store and probably in Europe first. The Apple app store has value, maybe less now than in the past so it will be the default but it will be monopoly on the platform will be broken.
I also disagree that the store will be broken up. Doing so opens up a massive can of worms for every industry that has platforms. Wanna put your own OS on your LG TV? Sure, have at it. Games consoles? Sure! How about your washing machine? Infotainment system in your car? Why does Ford get to tell me what apps I can install? I like the BMW system better. What about medical equipment such as the Corpuls3 defibrillator/ monitor that I have here….

407EEA40-1FDD-42EE-BD40-8E05B98CB390.jpeg

Should the manufacturer have control of the software….after all, you own the device right?

Etc, etc, etc.

Regulators will consider the likely implications to every other industry before making a judgement. Setting a precedent in any jurisdiction for something seemingly benign as a phone manufacturer having control of their own platform is going to have some serious ramifications for every industry….and that’s not an issue regulators want to deal with.
 
The ONLY alternative I know of, is for Apple to offer a 2nd App Store, one focused on Adults.
If this went through, Apple would just increase the cost for Developer Tools and re-tool the OS. Consider this, one can go into the software development business for the cost of a computer, and $100/year. After that, the retailer takes a cut of 15-30% every product sold. Included in that cut is most things you need to support your business (payment system, delivery, a platform for marketing, sales metrics et al.).
If this went through, I believe Apple would either limit the sales in the US (to allow competitors to thrive?) OR manufacture and release a phone with no OS, all of the proprietary and security guts removed and sell it at a premium price. That way, those people who, for some reason, want to see Apple’s device become the de facto mobile hardware worldwide, would be able to obtain the OS of their choosing, the security software they prefer, and install the app stores they’d like, zero support from Apple.
 
The one who controls the OS controls the device So the licence should be regulated and not be treated like any other licence. I repeat the one who controls the OS controls the device, in other words, someone else’s property.
And this differs from consoles how?
 
I really wish Steve is alive and well in this era. Tim Cook doesn't have the wisdom to balance this issue out. Actually it wasn't a problem much before the Services Strategy kicks in.
Steve Jobs wouldn’t care about “balancing”, he was always in favor of being as locked down as possible. The Apple II wasn’t his preference, the original Mac, the iMac and the Cube was.
 
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True. You own a licence to use the OS not the OS itself.
No. You a granted a license to use the OS within the rules of the license. You do not own anything.
Like you do with movies, games and other content like stuff.
That also come with serious restrictions as to how you use it.
Yet unlike games and music, this software controls the access to your device.
Actually, part of the game and video license, prevents you from modifying the device to circumvent their access control. Pretty similar level of control.
The one who controls the OS controls the device So the licence should be regulated and not be treated like any other licence.
Why should it be regulated? Did you not know about these restrictions when you purchased this device? Do you not understand that if you do not agree to the terms, you can return it for a full refund?

There are fully open source phones that are available. If you do not like these terms, you have every right to buy one of those. Neither Apple nor Google prevent you from using one of those devices with any mobile carrier.

If it were not possible to have an alternative, than you might have an argument, but there are options, you just do not like them.
I repeat the one who controls the OS controls the device, in other words, someone else’s property.
No, they control use of their licensed product. You purchased that product with an understanding of those terms. No one forced you to do so. There are other options.
That is the game that Apple plays and other Big Tech want to play, MS is silent for a reason. This leads the user in a position of control where he can either simply sell it and move to some other Big Tech hands or live with it, that is not really much of a choice regarding something that you own.
This was not something that happened after the fact. It is clear up front and is, in fact, a selling point of the product. Many people (most of my friends included) purchase iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS devices specifically because of these restrictions.
As the “smarts” move to other devices, cars, houses, cities ... more and more control is passed on to these companies over their customers amd suppliers properties.
There are many alternatives that have none of these restrictions. Android controls the bulk of the market and it does not have these same rules. There also fully open source options for many of these things.
The fact is that there is a limbo in the law regarding the specifics of an OS considering that one cannot simply swap it our for something else, in fact Apple goes all efforts in not allowing you to do just that (Operating System). Adding the spiel on the side where if anyone works on the internals besides them it may turn into ... let’s say something dangerous. That is what this entire discussion is all about.
If you do not like these terms, why do you buy these products? There are many other options without these restrictions.
PS: Tech should be about improving people’s life‘s
Apple‘s control over this hardware does improve my life by making it so I do not need to spend time managing a million store accounts, worrying about security and privacy. You clearly do not like this so why do you buy their products?
I refuse that as the only way to so it. Case in case, control the flux of money in and out of the device that it doesn’t own!
It is not the only way. There are many other options that do not have these restrictions. Purchase one of those. Do not ruin my choice by imposing your desires on it.
 
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PS: Tech should be about improving people’s life‘s not control someone else‘s property. I refuse that as the only way to so it. Case in case, control the flux of money in and out of the device that it doesn’t own!
Given how much you want a completely open device, why are you even considering Apple products? Here is a whole site dedicated to the kind of open products you want: https://linuxsmartphones.com/

You do not need to pick either Android or iOS, you can have exactly what you want, just without Apple’s hardware.
 
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So Facebook has recently elected to cut Australia off.

I bring this up because expectedly, DHH is on a Twitter rant on this matter and he sounds more and more unhinged by the moment.

I cannot believe I am actually siding with Facebook now.
 
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In the context of your analogy, it would be important to note that the builder told you about the limitations on furnishings before you bought the house.
One important details missing from your analogy - all the furnishing must only be acquired via the builder. Which doesn’t make sense. Sure, make rules that it has to conform to a certain style. That doesn’t mean it has to actually come via a specific store - that would be a monopoly if it did.

Further, there’s extensive piles of paperwork and agreements when buying a house. These aren’t there when you buy a phone. Is there anything telling you you can only purchase apps via the iOS App Store?
 
Because this is about my property, not McDonald's or Apple's property.

A proper analogy would be if you bought a new home from a builder and were told that it could only be furnished with items from a store that the builder owns. That would make absolutely no sense - it's your home and you can furnish it with items from whatever store you want.

Apple built a phone and they sold it to me. It should now be my right to put whatever apps I'd like on it, from wherever I want.
You may, right now. Go install Starbucks app all without the app store. Contact the software companies that are currently using only the app store and ask them to release a PWA of their app.

A correct analogy would be buying a new home from a builder with a list of only one or two million pieces of furniture available to choose from. You do not like any of those choices, so you go to IKEA and pick up a bedroom set.

The builder offered you a home with a few caveats. You have the choice to NOT buy it.
 
Back in the day, keeping 70% was a bargain. Most users had to purchase from carrier operated stores. Markups were huge. Just getting a hold of an SDK involved cost and a lot of paperwork.

That is not true. Not true at all. In other words, whoever told you that its a lie.
If you do not like these terms, why do you buy these products? There are many other options without these restrictions.

Because most people I know have iPhones using FaceTime and iMessages Because in like the device and OS? What about investements done in Apple TV, bought movies? What about the Apple Watch? You see, switching is not just like that. If it was that easy to switch from Windows to macOS probably there would be more Mac users. Anyway, for the same reason people buy a car?

No and there aren’t many options, Google applies the same kind of restrictions. Yes, you can side load but it looks more like a hack than a feature.

People are equating this has an Apple thing. But in fact what is at stake in way beyond Apple. It’s about defining what happens between that legal limbo between owning the license of an OS and owning a device what degree of controls people should have over the smart devices they own. Wether they are smartphones, cars, PCs or whatever ...

It seams that people are more concerned with what Apple owns than what they themselves own and control. A twisted concept of property. I think the concept of property should be applied to both equally. Don’t you think?

If Google is being regulated in Android as per enforcing Google Play on OEMs why isn’t Apple being regulated?

Why is Google being forced to pay for content in Australia while Apple is forcing others to pay for giving content to them?

I tell you why. reality distortion fields.
 
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And this differs from consoles how?

It’s not a console is it? Unlike consoles it can put a tap on all and any kind of digital services. By that reason maybe smart cars, smart houses, entire cities... can be just like consoles right if enough want to give away their property, right? Maybe seat belts and rear mirrors should not be required in cars who knows, maybe people would feel safer.
 
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It’s not a console is it? Unlike consoles it can put a tap on all and any kind of digital services.
How is it different than a console? Consoles have all kinds of digital services as well. Movies, music, games, video conferencing. What makes it any different?
By that reason maybe smart cars, smart houses, entire cities... can be just like consoles right if enough want to give away their property, right?
What does that even mean?
Maybe seat belts and rear mirrors should not be required in cars who knows, maybe people would feel safer.
How is this in any way connected to anything in this discussion?
 
That is not true. Not true at all. In other words, whoever told you that its a lie.
Actually, having worked with many software and game companies before the App Store, I know that it is true. Not only were the direct margins higher, almost every CompUSA, Radio Shack and Computerland had slotting fees and mandatory co-op advertising fees (or the equivalent), further reducing how much the developer got. If you have counter evidence, please present it.
Because most people I know have iPhones using FaceTime and iMessages
You can still send them messages, just without getting the blue bubble, and there are many other video chat services that are cross platform.
Because in like the device and OS?
Sorry, there are trade-offs. You want the experience, you have to take the terms that come with it. If you do not like the terms find a different ecosystem.
What about investements done in Apple TV, bought movies?
You can watch them on almost ever brand of smart TV and streaming box. No Apple devices needed. In addition, almost all of the movies and shows you purchased are now part of Movies Anywhere, so they are no longer tied to iTunes.
What about the Apple Watch?
Again, that you like products they have does not grant you the right to force them to change for your benefit. There are Tizen watches and Android Wear watches (as well as many other smart watches). In addition, in your world, an Apple watch could not provide the seamless experience it does, because it would not be able to be linked to the iPhone/iOS.
You see, switching is not just like that.
It is just like that. Nothing forces you to purchase Apple Products. You do not want to give up their ecosystem, you just want to ruin it for everyone that prefers it.
If it was that easy to switch from Windows to macOS probably there would be more Mac users.
It is that easy to switch from Windows to macOS. People do not do it because while Macintosh systems often have a lower TCO, they sometimes seem to have a higher entry price and some people just do not understand the real costs. There are a few very specialized applications that are Windows or Linux only, but they are tiny markets and do not affect most users.
Anyway, for the same reason people buy a car?
People do not buy cars and then spend hours arguing that the car manufacturer should be forced to install someone else’s in-car data system (like OnStar) or make is so they can change out their built in user interface.
No and there aren’t many options, Google applies the same kind of restrictions.
I gave you a web site with many Linux phones. There are many, many options. In addition to being able to side load, one can install other app stores on Android (like Samsung’s). Google applies the restrictions only to its own store. Nothing forces you to use its store.
Yes, you can side load but it looks more like a hack than a feature.
You keep explaining that all you want is the freedom to install what you want, but now you say that you want that, but with all the convenience and UI of Apple’s App Store.
People are equating this has an Apple thing. But in fact what is at stake in way beyond Apple. It’s about defining what happens between that legal limbo between owning the license of an OS and owning a device what degree of controls people should have over the smart devices they own. Wether they are smartphones, cars, PCs or whatever ...
What makes it so hard for you to understand that no one is forced to purchase any of these devices. There are lots of alternatives for those that think as you do. Apple’s ecosystem works as well as it does because of this integration. If you want the freedom to do what you want, it is completely available to you, just not within that ecosystem.
It seams that people are more concerned with what Apple owns than what they themselves own and control. A twisted concept of property. I think the concept of property should be applied to both equally. Don’t you think?
I particularly picked Apple’s ecosystem because I like that its integration and I like its curation. Nothing forced me to purchase an iPhone, an iPad, an iPad Pro, an Apple TV, a Macintosh, an Apple Watch and some HomePods. I choose to pay for Apple Services that I like because I like them and they integrate well. If I did not want that experience, I would not have purchased it.

Apple has the minority smart phone market share in every territory in the world. Even in the U.S. where it may be getting close to 50%, there is a thriving Android market. Why is it so hard for you to see that people do not want what you want, and that you should not force your choices on others?
If Google is being regulated in Android as per enforcing Google Play on OEMs why isn’t Apple being regulated?
Because Apple is a single company with a single product that has a small fraction of the market share that Google has. However, even for Android, there are alternatives and I oppose that regulation. If OEMs do not want to use Google services, let them install only AOSP and not get the benefits of the paid parts of Google’s ecosystem. There are enough of them that they should be able band together and build their own store infrastructure since you keep explaining how easy it is to do (that is one reason that you always give for why Apple do not deserve 30%).
Why is Google being forced to pay for content in Australia
Because News corp and others have better lobbyists than Google have, and the elected officials see this as an easy to gain favor with the media they need to run for office.
while Apple is forcing others to pay for giving content to them?
No one forces anyone to give content to Apple. Companies choose to release their products through the App Store under a set of terms to which they agree. As an alternative, they can release web apps if they want to target iOS customers, or just ignore the small part of the market that is iOS is most countries. They choose to sell their products on the App Store because they make money doing so. If they stop making money, you can be sure they will stop selling their products through that market.

Developers make twice the money in the App Store as they do on the Google Play store despite it being only from under 20% to the high 40’s% of the market (meaning they make somewhere between 2 and 5 times the money per customer). That happens because those who pick Apple’s ecosystem have done so because they trust it and are willing to spend money in it.
I tell you why. reality distortion fields.
The only person whose view of reality is distorted is you.
 
That is not true. Not true at all. In other words, whoever told you that its a lie.
Actually, having worked with many software and game companies before the App Store, I know that it is true. Not only were the direct margins higher, almost every CompUSA, Radio Shack and Computerland had slotting fees and mandatory co-op advertising fees (or the equivalent), further reducing how much the developer got. If you have counter evidence, please present it.
And, don’t forget software for mobile devices where sometimes even the carrier got a cut of the sales. The cheer you hear from developers when Apple introduced that their cut would be 30% was incredulity and relief!
 
And, don’t forget software for mobile devices where sometimes even the carrier got a cut of the sales. The cheer you hear from developers when Apple introduced that their cut would be 30% was incredulity and relief!

Exactly. I remember the "apps" we had on flip-phones that were $10 a month! Carrier billing. Yuck.

Then Apple (and Google) came in to disrupt the entire mobile app market. Hooray!

So what happened between the time the App Store was introduced in 2008... and now?

Back then developers were thrilled about the 30% deal. It was like a breath of fresh air. Instant access to a worldwide audience.

But today the market is MUCH bigger... with MANY more users... yet now some developers are upset that they have to give up 30% to Apple.
 
I can never understand this obsession with the argument that you "own" the device so Apple should bend over backwards and support ANYTHING ANYONE ever wants to do with the device. Should Apple be forced to support Windows 10 running on iPhones? I am sure there are people out there that want to do that!

You own the device, the physical object in your hand. You can throw it in a swimming pool and walk away if you want. You can jailbreak it if you want. But Apple should not be forced to bend over backwards and release tutorials on how to jailbreak it.
 
So what happened between the time the App Store was introduced in 2008... and now?
Greed. I actually have a feeling we are going to see some big issues later with pure greed and capitalism soon. This is also why Cyberpunk 2077 was released WAY TOO EARLY to just get those holiday sales - greed.
 
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That is not true. Not true at all. In other words, whoever told you that its a lie.


Because most people I know have iPhones using FaceTime and iMessages Because in like the device and OS? What about investements done in Apple TV, bought movies? What about the Apple Watch? You see, switching is not just like that. If it was that easy to switch from Windows to macOS probably there would be more Mac users. Anyway, for the same reason people buy a car?

No and there aren’t many options, Google applies the same kind of restrictions. Yes, you can side load but it looks more like a hack than a feature.

People are equating this has an Apple thing. But in fact what is at stake in way beyond Apple. It’s about defining what happens between that legal limbo between owning the license of an OS and owning a device what degree of controls people should have over the smart devices they own. Wether they are smartphones, cars, PCs or whatever ...

It seams that people are more concerned with what Apple owns than what they themselves own and control. A twisted concept of property. I think the concept of property should be applied to both equally. Don’t you think?

If Google is being regulated in Android as per enforcing Google Play on OEMs why isn’t Apple being regulated?

Why is Google being forced to pay for content in Australia while Apple is forcing others to pay for giving content to them?

I tell you why. reality distortion fields.

The big difference in Australia is Apple doesn’t own a search engine making money from other people’s work.

Apple isn’t caught up in the Australian law because their Apple News Service actually pays the media money for every article that I read. Google and Facebook are sharing links and providing link previews to the media content but not sharing in that revenue…they’re making their own service more lucrative at the cost of the media who does the hard work of reporting the news.

This is why Google is scrambling to make their own version of Apple News (and have already signed up a number of Australian news outlets) and Facebook are being Facebook….throwing a tantrum and blocking news content as well as government pages.
 
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If this went through, I believe Apple would either limit the sales in the US (to allow competitors to thrive?) OR manufacture and release a phone with no OS, all of the proprietary and security guts removed and sell it at a premium price. That way, those people who, for some reason, want to see Apple’s device become the de facto mobile hardware worldwide, would be able to obtain the OS of their choosing, the security software they prefer, and install the app stores they’d like, zero support from Apple.
That would be interesting. . . Hardware support only though. And then iPhone owner's could have the option of installing iOS with all of the current limitations as they now exist and then get software support. I like it.
 
I can never understand this obsession with the argument that you "own" the device so Apple should bend over backwards and support ANYTHING ANYONE ever wants to do with the device. Should Apple be forced to support Windows 10 running on iPhones? I am sure there are people out there that want to do that!

You own the device, the physical object in your hand. You can throw it in a swimming pool and walk away if you want. You can jailbreak it if you want. But Apple should not be forced to bend over backwards and release tutorials on how to jailbreak it.
The unspoken truth is that the owner does own the hardware; but the owner licenses the software. The software is still owned by Apple and there are limitations about what can be done with the software and the associated apps.
 
The fact is that there is a limbo in the law regarding the specifics of an OS considering that one cannot simply swap it our for something else, in fact Apple goes all efforts in not allowing you to do just that (Operating System). Adding the spiel on the side where if anyone works on the internals besides them it may turn into ... let’s say something dangerous. That is what this entire discussion is all about.
Not really as shown by the Psystar Corporation lawsuit back in 2009 what Apple is doing with regard to losing down it's OS is protected by the DMCA which is less draconian than the EU's Article 17
 
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