octo Mac Pro, 32 GB of RAM, etc. -- advice?

[Sesshi]

I just read the first page of this discussion - if it helps on the RAM side, I have 32GB of RAM running on a couple of Dell Precision 690's for engineering computing and the motherboards are for the purposes of argument the same, and the chipset is of course identical. I would anticipate no problems at all for that amount of RAM in that mobo.

 

[iW00t]

FYI I bought a Matias, I've gone through 6 pairs of kickstands and the shell holding the keyboard together started to come apart. It's an odd combo, the keys and innards are great, but the outer components were made with very poor durability.

While on the topic of keyboards I have actually grown to like the Das keyboard a lot:

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

Fantastic build quality, looks like crap, but has a lot of geek cred with its blank keycaps

 

[Luis]

While on the topic of keyboards I have actually grown to like the Das keyboard a lot:

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

Fantastic build quality, looks like crap, but has a lot of geek cred with its blank keycaps

Wow! that keyboard does look freaky!

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

Mward, I do a lot of typing too and I've been happiest with the Apple keyboards actually. I got one of the wired ones a while ago for my old PC when the Logitech wireless keyboard died and when I ordered my Mac Pro, I went for the wireless mouse and keyboard.

The keyboard is a dream to use and the batteries last forever. I never turn it off like some people do to save battery and the juice finally ran out two days ago after having been left on since oooh.. end September, early October, when ever I got my machine.

The mouse isn't quite as good, decent batteries last a couple of months or so. The scroll ball while in theory is good and for the first few weeks worked a treat but there's no way to clean it. My favourite mouse has always been the wired Microsoft Intellimice but the Mighty Mouse does the job.

In regards to the dual Mac Pro suggestion someone made, you might want to look into Xgrid: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xgrid/. You'd need to get a copy of OS X Server for one machine but I think its reasonably straight forward to code for if you're already half decent at multithreading. That way you could have up to 16 cores crunching your numbers. It automatically scales back when you're using the machine for your own stuff too, much like the distributed computing stuff like Boinc. So you could leave one machine (the server Mac Pro), crunching the numbers 24x7 and the other one will join in if you're not using it or if you're not using all of the 8 cores. How many cores does it take to write a latex document after all!!

 

[mward333]

FYI I bought a Matias, I've gone through 6 pairs of kickstands and the shell holding the keyboard together started to come apart. It's an odd combo, the keys and innards are great, but the outer components were made with very poor durability.

Thank you for letting me know about the Matias defects. I noticed that a few people have seen their keyboards fall apart over time, as you did. I'm hoping that the 2nd version of the Tactile Pro has more durability. Most folks seem pretty satisfied.

 

[mward333]

Mward, I do a lot of typing too and I've been happiest with the Apple keyboards actually. I got one of the wired ones a while ago for my old PC when the Logitech wireless keyboard died and when I ordered my Mac Pro, I went for the wireless mouse and keyboard.

The keyboard is a dream to use and the batteries last forever. I never turn it off like some people do to save battery and the juice finally ran out two days ago after having been left on since oooh.. end September, early October, when ever I got my machine.

The mouse isn't quite as good, decent batteries last a couple of months or so. The scroll ball while in theory is good and for the first few weeks worked a treat but there's no way to clean it. My favourite mouse has always been the wired Microsoft Intellimice but the Mighty Mouse does the job.

In regards to the dual Mac Pro suggestion someone made, you might want to look into Xgrid: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xgrid/. You'd need to get a copy of OS X Server for one machine but I think its reasonably straight forward to code for if you're already half decent at multithreading. That way you could have up to 16 cores crunching your numbers. It automatically scales back when you're using the machine for your own stuff too, much like the distributed computing stuff like Boinc. So you could leave one machine (the server Mac Pro), crunching the numbers 24x7 and the other one will join in if you're not using it or if you're not using all of the 8 cores. How many cores does it take to write a latex document after all!!

Thanks for the keyboard and mouse advice. I appreciate that.

Yes, the xgrid option sounds like a good idea too. I think that this idea of purchasing two machines might be the way-to-go. I've just gotta take a look at the possibilities (and my budget) and see what to do. I should think seriously about this.

 

[mward333]

While on the topic of keyboards I have actually grown to like the Das keyboard a lot:

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

Fantastic build quality, looks like crap, but has a lot of geek cred with its blank keycaps

I've thought a lot about the Das keyboard too.... it looks like a similar feel to the Matias keyboard, although of course a totally different look. I see good reviews of both keyboards, and I might order one of each to give them a try (just pass one of them on to a colleague afterwards). I'm leaning towards the Matias, but I'm still not 100 percent convinced yet. I would love to let somebody else try/review the Tactile Pro 2.0 when it is released in the next few weeks, before I have to make my decision.

 

[mward333]

Congrats, you are a genius. Good for you !! Well done at upenn.

You caught me. Actually, my students made that Facebook page for me during my first term at University of Pennsylvania. They enjoyed my calculus class so much that they made me a Facebook page called "Ward Makes Calculus Worth Learning". Needless to say, I was very honored and pleased by this. I see teaching as an intricate part of the experience as a professor at a research school. Of course, a professor's research is supposed to be the most important thing, but I find that I attract the best students if I also care about my teaching too. So I get the enjoyment of working hard at both aspects of my job: research and teaching. It's a double pleasure.

 

[mward333]

Isn't a 2G stick something like $250? So you could get 16 sticks for $4000, and get a second 8-core Mac Pro, and end up cheaper. Can the extra memory in a single machine possibly make it twice as fast -- at that level? It certainly can in a small machine, but with 8 G you'd think it wouldn't. And with the second machine chugging away on a problem for a day or so, you could use the first machine, with its 3 or 4 screens, to design the next problem or write a book without getting in the way of the computing.

OK, I did the math on this, and you have an excellent point. Here is a good price comparison from Ramjet:

32 GB of RAM (8 sticks, 4 GB each) costs $7990

32 GB of RAM (16 sticks, 2 GB each) costs only $1990. So I could buy a second Mac Pro, put 16 GB of RAM into each machine, and actually save money (a second octo-core Mac Pro with minimum configuration is only $3647.00).

What a good point! I appreciate this advice. So I'll either settle for 16 GB of RAM, or if I really need 32 GB of RAM then I'll just buy a second octo-core Mac Pro and put 16 more GB of RAM into the second machine. I would be saving lots of money this way.

 

[hayduke]

OK, I did the math on this, and you have an excellent point. Here is a good price comparison from Ramjet:

32 GB of RAM (8 sticks, 4 GB each) costs $7990

32 GB of RAM (16 sticks, 2 GB each) costs only $1990. So I could buy a second Mac Pro, put 16 GB of RAM into each machine, and actually save money (a second octo-core Mac Pro with minimum configuration is only $3647.00).

What a good point! I appreciate this advice. So I'll either settle for 16 GB of RAM, or if I really need 32 GB of RAM then I'll just buy a second octo-core Mac Pro and put 16 more GB of RAM into the second machine. I would be saving lots of money this way.

Sorry...don't mean to always be the skeptic, but I'm not sure how this helps you. The machines won't share memory so if your heavy computing requires 32GB of RAM this 2x16GB configuration will fail you. On the otherhand if things can be highly parallelized you might be okay. At 16GB, however, you'll be "limited" to a modest 2GB per processor. If your memory demands are a critical as you've implied then you might really need a single machine with 32GB.

 

[mward333]

Sorry...don't mean to always be the skeptic, but I'm not sure how this helps you. The machines won't share memory so if your heavy computing requires 32GB of RAM this 2x16GB configuration will fail you. On the otherhand if things can be highly parallelized you might be okay. At 16GB, however, you'll be "limited" to a modest 2GB per processor. If your memory demands are a critical as you've implied then you might really need a single machine with 32GB.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I still can't decide which way to go. It's tough to decide. Many of my tasks can be parallelized, so two machines would perhaps be OK. On the other hand, 32 GB in the same machine is very desirable and useful, but of course quite expensive.

I'm still thinking about this and weighing the pros and cons.

 

[deadpixels]

but it is difficult to predict the future. Hmmm.......

with a setup like this, your MPro will

 

[sid21177]

One more vote for checking 30" displays from other manufacturers.

 

[d_and_n5000]

OK, I did the math on this, and you have an excellent point. Here is a good price comparison from Ramjet:

32 GB of RAM (8 sticks, 4 GB each) costs $7990

32 GB of RAM (16 sticks, 2 GB each) costs only $1990. So I could buy a second Mac Pro, put 16 GB of RAM into each machine, and actually save money (a second octo-core Mac Pro with minimum configuration is only $3647.00).

What a good point! I appreciate this advice. So I'll either settle for 16 GB of RAM, or if I really need 32 GB of RAM then I'll just buy a second octo-core Mac Pro and put 16 more GB of RAM into the second machine. I would be saving lots of money this way.

Maybe as an alternative, you could try to start off with less RAM in 4GB increments, and buy as you need to. For example, if you buy four 4GB sticks for a total of 16GB and three months decide you want(or need) to have all 32GB, those four sticks of more RAM would have three months to drop in price some. Besides, this way if you find that you don't need quite 32GB at the moment, you save further money. Plus, by buying in 4GB increments, you don't lose any slots, so you have future expansion made much easier by not having to sell extra chips.

 

[Emrtr4]

A couple of things,

dont buy the Apple displays, go to Newegg.com and buy some nice new 30 inch HP displays or Samsung displays, higher color resolution, better contrast (brand new displays, and LED backlit) and also a lot cheaper. Even if you were doing graphical work these displays would be more accurate than the Apple cinema displays.

Also, i have to agree with what was suggested before that two macpros would suit your needs a lot more. The problem is, 4 gig memory modules will not have enough Bus, so your paying for the sticks and not really getting to exploit them (the channels just cant carry that much information). Two Mac pros, octos at 3 gighz, 16 gigs RAM each, and forget raptor drives, buy a 16 Gig Solid State Drive to run your operating system in each machine, will cut your boot time in half (also you may want to step up to a 32 gig Soild state drive to load other programs onto, those drives are about $500 but by this summer will be a lot cheaper, so for now you could order two 750 gig drives for each machine and then just add these Solid State drives later when prices drop a bit).

Given how you write your programs, I do not see why there would be a problem with two machines running a fiber channel. It may be more work too write two programs but it will be a lot more efficient breaking it down and running it on two seperate CPUS with all that memory and that nice bandwith.

 

[mward333]

A couple of things,

dont buy the Apple displays, go to Newegg.com and buy some nice new 30 inch HP displays or Samsung displays, higher color resolution, better contrast (brand new displays, and LED backlit) and also a lot cheaper. Even if you were doing graphical work these displays would be more accurate than the Apple cinema displays.

Also, i have to agree with what was suggested before that two macpros would suit your needs a lot more. The problem is, 4 gig memory modules will not have enough Bus, so your paying for the sticks and not really getting to exploit them (the channels just cant carry that much information). Two Mac pros, octos at 3 gighz, 16 gigs RAM each, and forget raptor drives, buy a 16 Gig Solid State Drive to run your operating system in each machine, will cut your boot time in half (also you may want to step up to a 32 gig Soild state drive to load other programs onto, those drives are about $500 but by this summer will be a lot cheaper, so for now you could order two 750 gig drives for each machine and then just add these Solid State drives later when prices drop a bit).

Given how you write your programs, I do not see why there would be a problem with two machines running a fiber channel. It may be more work too write two programs but it will be a lot more efficient breaking it down and running it on two seperate CPUS with all that memory and that nice bandwith.

I think that you have some wise advice on several points. I definitely need to take some time to look at non-Apple displays. Have you had any experience with the ones you mentioned, HP and Samsung?

Yep, since my last post, I settled onto the fact that 16 GB is the most RAM I should put into one Mac Pro, for a variety of reasons (bandwidth, cost, etc.). If I get two Mac Pros, I can fibre channel them together, as you mentioned, and it is easy to write distributed programs to work across two (or more) such machines.

Thanks for the input! I appreciate it.

 

[iW00t]

I've thought a lot about the Das keyboard too.... it looks like a similar feel to the Matias keyboard, although of course a totally different look. I see good reviews of both keyboards, and I might order one of each to give them a try (just pass one of them on to a colleague afterwards). I'm leaning towards the Matias, but I'm still not 100 percent convinced yet. I would love to let somebody else try/review the Tactile Pro 2.0 when it is released in the next few weeks, before I have to make my decision.

Its feel is totally different. The Matias has more resistance to their keys (which gets old after a while), the Das keys feel lighter, but still provide that tactile response right before it "triggers". Excellent keyboard IMO.

 

[mward333]

Its feel is totally different. The Matias has more resistance to their keys (which gets old after a while), the Das keys feel lighter, but still provide that tactile response right before it "triggers". Excellent keyboard IMO.

I appreciate the input about the Das Keyboard. Do you know somewhere that I can try it? I haven't seen it anywhere, but I would love to try it. I'm currently in Philadelphia, PA, but I'm moving to West Lafayette, IN, this summer (that's where I'm buying the Mac Pro).

 

[JeffDM]

One thing I'd do, is get a Raptor hard drive to boot OS X off. They're very very fast hard drives, a 160 GB drive should be enough. Just install OS X on it (and any apps which need to be on the boot disk), and you'll notice quite a large speed increase. =]

I did it and it's not that great in my opinion. I just returned a Raptor X today. It tested out only a few percent faster than the dual 250GB stripe I am currently using, and it had a LOT louder seek noise and less space. App start-up and booting was hardly any different, though with the Raptor it seemed to take longer because the entire time I had to listen to the head seek clicking sound, which is done rapidly enough that it sounds like a rattle. If you want to try it, be my guest. Best Buy has them on sale this week, if you are in the US you might want to try it. I just decided that I'd rather spend a tiny bit more for 750GB (5x space) than have a very marginal speed boost.

Get the 4 screens - although the TV's are bigger, they offer less screen real estate, so in viewing area, are actually smaller

That's not quite the right way to say it. The screen area of a 30" TV and 30" monitor is the same. The difference is in the pixel density, or the end result, the amount of detail that it can display.

WTF?
Are you for real, you have that big of a memory hog? Might want to work on your programing.

I don't think it's that simple if the programming is what I think it is. There are optimizations on algorithms that trade needed memory and compute time, and there just might be a lot of data involved.

 

[mward333]

I did it and it's not that great in my opinion. I just returned a Raptor X today. It tested out only a few percent faster than the dual 250GB stripe I am currently using, and it had a LOT louder seek noise and less space. App start-up and booting was hardly any different, though with the Raptor it seemed to take longer because the entire time I had to listen to the head seek clicking sound. If you want to try it, be my guest. Best Buy has them on sale this week, if you are in the US you might want to try it. I just decided that I'd rather spend a tiny bit more for 750GB (5x space) than have a very marginal speed boost.



That's not quite the right way to say it. The screen area of a 30" TV and 30" monitor is the same. The difference is in the pixel density, or the end result, the amount of detail that it can display.



I don't think it's that simple if the programming is what I think it is. There are optimizations on algorithms that trade needed memory and compute time, and there just might be a lot of data involved.

JeffDM, thanks for your input here. I was wondering if those Raptor drives were loud--I had a hunch that they might be. I think I'll try to find a Mac Pro with one of those Raptor drives installed, so that I can give it a try. My current plan is to go with 4 of the 750 GB Seagate drives, since I run algorithms on huge data sets. I could of course use a RAID setup.

 

[corywoolf]

Thank you very much for your advice. I stick with Maple because I do Analysis of Algorithms, and the Maple software has many packages which are written by my colleagues to help with such computations.

In particular, I frequently compute generating functions and then use residue analysis to extract asymptotics. I am also interested in multivariate asymptotic analysis, where the different parameters grow large in several ranges.

I was never much of a differential equations guy, although of course Maple has nice packages for these things too.

Maple 11 was just released (my copy arrives on Monday), but I think that the new Maple 11 is still 32-bit, from what my colleagues tell me. This is a shame to hear, but I'm sure that a 64-bit version can't be too far down-the-road, at least I hope so.

I also perform computations on discrete, randomly-constructed trees, which lend themselves very well to parallelized tasks (just send separate processes on the 8 separate cores down the separate branches of the trees, and then spawn new processes as necessary..... very easy to parallelize). I can just handle my own multithreading in my programs, but of course Java could be used if one preferred. (I think that Tiger's Java is 32-bit but Leopard's will be 64-bit? I don't know about this, because I don't usually use Java.... so don't quote me here.) I usually use C++ with a multi-threading package.

Congrats on being able to get such a nice setup. Anyone else here baffled on what most of this quoted post means? I feel really stupid asking, but what is the ultimate goal of your efforts? Math is very powerful, but sometimes (especially in high school) I couldn't figure out real world usage for the intense jargon.

 

[queshy]

Wow, imagine how good it'll run office in rosetta lol.

Seriously though, I think you're making a good choice. the machine will not get outdated so quick.

 

[mward333]

Congrats on being able to get such a nice setup. Anyone else here baffled on what most of this quoted post means? I feel really stupid asking, but what is the ultimate goal of your efforts? Math is very powerful, but sometimes (especially in high school) I couldn't figure out real world usage for the intense jargon.

I had to smile at your post. Let's see--what is a simple explanation.

Maple 11 is a symbolic computation program. It lets you solve equations exactly (without approximating). We solve some pretty complicated equations, let's say! We also are interested in asymptotics, in other words, what happens in the long run, for some algorithms or data structures. So, what is an algorithm? Just a set of instructions to follow (usually, for the computer to follow). I tell people that everybody knows what an algorithm is: For instance, your grocery list is an algorithm: it is a set of instructions that tells you exactly how to go around the grocery store and pick up the food you need.

So my ultimate goal is to have the computer help me analyze some equations related to algorithms and data structures. With a lot of RAM, we can solve some pretty interesting multivariate equations (i.e., equations with not just "x" but, let's say "x, y, z"). It's powerful (and expensive stuff).... expensive in terms of time and memory.

These are the kinds of equations that actually take advantage of the multiple cores on the new Mac Pro's. I also do distributed computing, where I send separate jobs to the separate processors, and then put everything together as the processes run.

I hope that was a nice overview. Donald Knuth, by the way, is revered as the father of "analysis of algorithms", and "A of A" is carried on by folks such as Philippe Flajolet, Robert Sedgewick, Wojciech Szpankowski, etc. You can find lots of interesting reading about this stuff. I love it. It puts bread on the table, and it is fun to research and teach about too.

Enjoy!

 

[Applenewb]

Thank you for letting me know about the Matias defects. I noticed that a few people have seen their keyboards fall apart over time, as you did. I'm hoping that the 2nd version of the Tactile Pro has more durability. Most folks seem pretty satisfied.

Update: just because your post reminded me I wrote Matias to complain about my Tactile Pro. The rep said the owner has spent quite a bit of time in Taiwan to rectify the problems for the new 2.0 version and it should be much improved. We'll see...(they offered me a 20% discount so I'll probably bite.)

 

[tominated]

All i have to say is...

HOLY SH*T!