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I know we're talking about technology here, but Vitamix does exactly this.

Their blenders come with a 5 year warranty, but their top of the line blenders which have a higher price come with a 10 year warranty.
It does make sense but on most things paying more only gets you a fancier product.


As others mentioned, the unique challenge with Apple is that they control the OS and the hardware so they can, and do, decide when to make their hardware "obsolete" and that isn't governed by purely technical reasons. On the PC side the hardware is deemed obsolete either due to speed reasons or actual technical limitations that are being hit. Like wanting Frame Gen on the latest Nvidia graphics cards...
They make the hardware not control it. At least not on Mac. You can install another OS on a Mac for example.


If you need proof of how technical limitations aren't the true "reason" you only need to look at the unsupported macOS thread and the work by the community via the Open Core Legacy Patcher to extend the life of Macs.
That only proves that it’s not locked down and Apple doesn’t have control. There are similar articles in the windows community where people figure out ways to get modern version of Windows installed on unsupported hardware.

Apple support lifetimes for Macs should be 10Y minimum, but realistically should be governed by actual hardware limitations and not arbitrary cutoffs.
I’m not sure if 10 years is realistic, but maybe. It has to be an arbitrary cut off will you make millions of things? You can’t just say well we can’t support this no more when you have a multi trillion dollar company. Making the limit based on the hardware would mean customers that didn’t know about hardware would get screwed because they bought something they didn’t know could no longer be supported for a very long. There has to be a set time.
 
The problem with saying a computer should be supported for X years means that you are hampering every computer that comes out for the next X-1 years. Take for example the M1 to M4 Cpus from apple which are all still "supported". the GPU capabilities of the M4 are vastly superior to the M1. To the tune of an M4 can reproduce almost all (if not all) of the features of directx 12, The M1 cannot. so if Apple wants a games ecosystem then it can not support a computer for 10 years. If quantum computers make headway the security encryption schemes of the T2 chip (and its other variants that made it into the ARM Macs) will be useless. computers evolve.... constantly. users needs evolve... constantly. I say a "FAIR" life for a computer is 5 years. I tell business customers that. and I will tell anyone else that. if you get 7 consider it a win for your budget. if you think a 2000 computer should last 10 years... then your computer budget is 200 / yr so if you want that then you should be buying $1000-$1400 computers. if that computer cannot do what you want then you need to re-evaluate what you need from a computer. I can get a computer for $800-900 that is excellent for years to come. even if you want a Mac. the Mac mini base model is $600 and will be supported for 7 years... that price point is under 100 / year. even a 15" MacBook Air with the larger 512GB SSD and 10 core CPU ./ GPU is 1399. that is 200 a year for 7 years. if you think you need an M4 pro MacBook Pro or something like that then your computer is a not just for personal use or you just want more than you likely need.
 
“Modern”(cheap) TVs have several Capacitors in the Power supply which fail after a few years (just when the warranty is expired)... replacing is easy, because the fault is visible and exchanging them is easy ... didn’t see this coincident in any apple product, so it would not apply in this case (But for TVs - would be easy to improve the design, but People want an excuse anyway to buy a larger Model...)
 
There's a very lengthy article on Ars Technica about Mac length of support, which covers lots of issues. One factor is that Apple gets support from Intel and Qualcomm for the chips they buy -- up to a point. When those companies stop giving support to Apple for old hardware, Apple can't support it to their customers.

Hopefully, we'll see longer support now that Apple is bringing everything in-house.

Also: if Apple allowed 2015 Macs to run Sequoia (which is designed to reap the benefits of more powerful hardware), people would cry "Apple is deliberately slowing my Mac to make me upgrade!". So, because Apple is all about user experience, they say "These Macs don't meet our criteria for a good user experience on this OS." Of course, then people say "Apple is deliberately dropping support to make me upgrade!" (The other question is: how much money should Apple spend optimizing Sequoia for old hardware, a fraction of the userbase; instead of optimizing for newer hardware?)

The often-held notion that Apple engineers have a meeting and plan the obsolescence of hardware is contradicted by the fact that some models do have much longer support life than others. In fact, Apple spends a lot of effort into trying to make sure older models can stay supported.

Fun fact: for several years, Apple wrote code into the OS explicitly to keep old versions of Photoshop (which Adobe no longer supported) running on newer OSes. ("if $Photoshop == old: don't crash".) It wasn't their problem; it didn't earn them a penny: but they did it anyway, just to support their users.
 
I bought a 2017 iMac in 2019, months before it was discontinued, and Apple only supported it until Ventura. That's only three major upgrades since I own this Mac. It is disappointing, and I don't really understand why they dropped it so early, when other Intel Macs still receive upgrades to this day. It's really a shame, because with a fast SSD and more than enough processing power it's a perfectly capable daily driver. Unfortunately very soon third-party developers will also stop releasing updates for Ventura, which will mean a deteriorating user experience from now on.

Since it's Intel tech inside, I will likely be able to make a decent Linux machine out of this Mac later, so it's not going to be completely useless once I completely move to my M2 mini. I'm not sure though, how Apple Silicon Macs are going to fare. It seems likely they are going to become e-waste even faster. There are some efforts to reverse-engineer them in the Linux community, but without Apple's help it's an uphill battle.

Personally this experience made me look differently at the long-term value of Apple hardware and even consider using standard Intel/AMD hardware again for some of my needs.
 
I bought a 2017 iMac in 2019, months before it was discontinued, and Apple only supported it until Ventura. That's only three major upgrades since I own this Mac. It is disappointing, and I don't really understand why they dropped it so early, when other Intel Macs still receive upgrades to this day. It's really a shame, because with a fast SSD and more than enough processing power it's a perfectly capable daily driver. Unfortunately very soon third-party developers will also stop releasing updates for Ventura, which will mean a deteriorating user experience from now on.

Since it's Intel tech inside, I will likely be able to make a decent Linux machine out of this Mac later, so it's not going to be completely useless once I completely move to my M2 mini. I'm not sure though, how Apple Silicon Macs are going to fare. It seems likely they are going to become e-waste even faster. There are some efforts to reverse-engineer them in the Linux community, but without Apple's help it's an uphill battle.

Personally this experience made me look differently at the long-term value of Apple hardware and even consider using standard Intel/AMD hardware again for some of my needs.
2017 = 8 years ago. 2019 = 6 years ago, and you say it’s still “a perfectly capable daily driver.” Sounds like you’re still getting your money’s worth. But to your point, the cpu isn’t always the reason Apple may stop supporting a Mac model. Intel iMacs especially were released with less-than optimal graphics cards, and on every iMac i ever owned except for 1 the graphics card failed after about 6 - 7 years (on that lone 1, a 2019 btw, it was the motherboard). So as benwiggy pointed out, supporting old hardware from 3rd party vendors is/was probably a nightmare.

However, your assumption Apple silicon macs “seem(s) likely they are going to become e-waste even faster” than Intel based macs seems baseless, especially considering how over-powered M series macs are for non-professional, and even most professional users.
 
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I bought a 2017 iMac in 2019, months before it was discontinued, and Apple only supported it until Ventura. That's only three major upgrades since I own this Mac. It is disappointing, and I don't really understand why they dropped it so early, when other Intel Macs still receive upgrades to this day. It's really a shame, because with a fast SSD and more than enough processing power it's a perfectly capable daily driver. Unfortunately very soon third-party developers will also stop releasing updates for Ventura, which will mean a deteriorating user experience from now on.

Since it's Intel tech inside, I will likely be able to make a decent Linux machine out of this Mac later, so it's not going to be completely useless once I completely move to my M2 mini. I'm not sure though, how Apple Silicon Macs are going to fare. It seems likely they are going to become e-waste even faster. There are some efforts to reverse-engineer them in the Linux community, but without Apple's help it's an uphill battle.

Personally this experience made me look differently at the long-term value of Apple hardware and even consider using standard Intel/AMD hardware again for some of my needs.
I'm just generally not going to feel sorry for someone who buys an Apple product without knowing how recent the model is that they're buying. Although the refresh cycle is much more variable for Macs, it's akin to buying an iPhone in August and getting mad that they release a new one a month later. The only exception is if your old computer went kaput and you just couldn't hold out for a few more months.

You're referring to a 2017 iMac, which was discontinued in March 2019, and based on your wording it must have been January 2019 when you were buying. The 2017 iMac and its predecessor (2015) had both been on sale for about a year and a half; the 2014 iMacs only made it about a year. With even a little bit of research, there should have been a flashing red "don't buy this" sign. If only there were a website that does all that hard work for you!

Moreover, there were four (not three) major upgrades between early 2019 and discontinuation of macOS support for the 2017 iMac: Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura. To my knowledge Apple has never formally committed to releasing two years of security updates for older macOS versions on unsupported models, but Ventura should still receive security updates as needed through at least the fall. Apple occasionally will push updates for "unsupported" OSes even years after that two-year mark to fix critical bugs.

Regardless, the 2017 iMac will have received over 8 years of official software support through feature releases and security updates. You bought it 1.5 years into that and will have likely received just short of 7 years of official support, which the consensus through all this thread seems to be reasonable. As you mention, you have plenty of options for what to do with your hardware after that date.

Never buy hardware based on the promise of future software, of course, but as for Asahi Linux, I'd venture to guess it will likely be perfectly suitable as a daily driver once macOS support for M2 SoCs becomes an issue.
 
However, your assumption Apple silicon macs “seem(s) likely they are going to become e-waste even faster” than Intel based macs seems baseless, especially considering how over-powered M series macs are for non-professional, and even most professional users.
Intel Macs can run Linux or even Windows decently. Once Apple stops supporting M series Macs, you're stuck with whatever version Apple decides to support. The issues is not, that MacOS suddenly won't work any more. The problem is, that you won't get Safari updates (important for security), and third party developers will dump older versions. Slowly but surely, things will start breaking.

Yes, there is rudimentary Linux support for the earlier M models. But development has considerably slowed down, because volunteers just burned out. As far as I know Apple never helped those efforts.
 
2017 = 8 years ago. 2019 = 6 years ago, and you say it’s still “a perfectly capable daily driver.” Sounds like you’re still getting your money’s worth.

That's the point -- we want to keep getting our money's worth but the software upgrade cycle makes that increasingly difficult. it seems arbitrary our devices lose software support.

But to your point, the cpu isn’t always the reason Apple may stop supporting a Mac model. Intel iMacs especially were released with less-than optimal graphics cards, and on every iMac i ever owned except for 1 the graphics card failed after about 6 - 7 years (on that lone 1, a 2019 btw, it was the motherboard). So as benwiggy pointed out, supporting old hardware from 3rd party vendors is/was probably a nightmare.

I think conflating the issue of hardware support and software support. If the graphics on my computer fails, it is no longer a capable daily driver. If the hardware fails at 6 or 7 years, I buy a new computer. But otherwise it seems arbitrary to just drop software support for it at year 6 or 7.

Note Apple already wrote the drivers for all the devices on these computers and worked out the bugs over 5+ years prior. I am not saying the maintenance cost is $0 but no one is asking Apple to write new drivers for 7 year old hardware either. Though on that front, it's clear that Apple has blocked 3rd parties such as AMD and Nvidia from developing drivers for new cards.

However, your assumption Apple silicon macs “seem(s) likely they are going to become e-waste even faster” than Intel based macs seems baseless, especially considering how over-powered M series macs are for non-professional, and even most professional users.

But that's the point -- Apple isn't deprecating this hardware based on specs or usability. It pretty much hits an age limit and they drop it. Some people cheer when it's Intel hardware but soon that same policy will apply to Apple Silicon.
 
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I bought a 2017 iMac in 2019, months before it was discontinued, and Apple only supported it until Ventura. That's only three major upgrades since I own this Mac. It is disappointing, and I don't really understand why they dropped it so early, when other Intel Macs still receive upgrades to this day. It's really a shame, because with a fast SSD and more than enough processing power it's a perfectly capable daily driver. Unfortunately very soon third-party developers will also stop releasing updates for Ventura, which will mean a deteriorating user experience from now on.

Since it's Intel tech inside, I will likely be able to make a decent Linux machine out of this Mac later, so it's not going to be completely useless once I completely move to my M2 mini. I'm not sure though, how Apple Silicon Macs are going to fare. It seems likely they are going to become e-waste even faster. There are some efforts to reverse-engineer them in the Linux community, but without Apple's help it's an uphill battle.

Personally this experience made me look differently at the long-term value of Apple hardware and even consider using standard Intel/AMD hardware again for some of my needs.
That’s what I did: repurposed my old PC with Linux and it runs like a champ now. Probably won’t melt benchmarks but it’s plenty fast and plays all the games I want. Linux has come a long way.
 
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Well if Apple want to keep supporting then I guess they could look at a "tech subscription" along the same lines as day Final Cut Pro for ipad, you buy at certain levels of support.. It pays the salaries of the PHD's writing code..
 
I'm just generally not going to feel sorry for someone who buys an Apple product without knowing how recent the model is that they're buying.
It was officially on sale at Apple in 2019. Why should I as a customer with no inside knowledge be required to make projections about future product support? Thanks to Apple's secrecy regarding future products it seems quite difficult to do anyway.

Regardless, the 2017 iMac will have received over 8 years of official software support through feature releases and security updates. You bought it 1.5 years into that and will have likely received just short of 7 years of official support, which the consensus through all this thread seems to be reasonable.
Less than 7 years is just too short for such an expensive and in fact durable product. I'm not even asking for fancy new features, just basic library and security patches.

Anyway, I just posted this here to express my opinion, not to be lectured to about what my expectation should be.
 
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10 years + an additional 3 year "Apple Care Tech Subscription" 13 yrs before obsolete status can be declared.
 
Well if Apple want to keep supporting then I guess they could look at a "tech subscription" along the same lines as day Final Cut Pro for ipad, you buy at certain levels of support.. It pays the salaries of the PHD's writing code..

I would pay $100/year for continued software support after year 5.

P.S.Not sure what people here are asking for requires PhDs. Talent yes to ensure that things keep working as well as they did during years 0-5 but that shouldn't require frontier/breakthrough CS.
 
I'm not sure though, how Apple Silicon Macs are going to fare. It seems likely they are going to become e-waste even faster. There are some efforts to reverse-engineer them in the Linux community, but without Apple's help it's an uphill battle.
Erm, Asahi Linux already exists and runs very well. The biggest thing missing by this point is thunderbolt, it’s already a rock solid install otherwise, I have the Fedora release on my M1 mini and it’s great…
 
Every machine capable of running Windows 7 can run Windows 10 today.
That's not exactly true. I'm currently typing this on a machine that can run Windows 7, but where attempting to install Windows 10 just results in an instant bluescreen when you attempt booting into the install media (or installing from windows 7)
 
It was officially on sale at Apple in 2019. Why should I as a customer with no inside knowledge be required to make projections about future product support? Thanks to Apple's secrecy regarding future products it seems quite difficult to do anyway.
Less than 7 years is just too short for such an expensive and in fact durable product. I'm not even asking for fancy new features, just basic library and security patches.
Then use OCLP, install another OS, or otherwise do whatever you need to do in order to feel comfortable continuing to use the hardware. At the end of the day, Apple is a consumer products company, and we’re talking about consumer products.

As you point out, Macs are expensive. For such an expensive purchase, anyone who isn’t fabulously wealthy is going to at least consider how long that investment is going to last them before pulling the trigger. Apple doesn’t make direct commitments, but if I take the 15 seconds (!) to Google simply “how long do Macs last,” I’m immediately met with an an AI answer up top explaining that they last “around 5–7 years on average” with the potential of making it a few years past that. Reddit responses are broadly in the same range. You can, of course, find folks who are north of a decade on their current Mac.

You honestly seem pretty thoughtful, so I’m not sure why you seem to have bought your iMac expecting it to be an exception.

Anyway, I just posted this here to express my opinion, not to be lectured to about what my expectation should be.
You are free to have whatever expectations you’d like. That doesn’t make those expectations particularly reasonable.
 
On non-Apple hardware, Windows and Linux just run and run and the lifetime of a machine is measured in speed and responsiveness, not a kill switch from the manufacturer.

Do Apple machines stop working after a certain number of years when this “kill switch” is flipped? I wasn’t aware of this. My 2011 iMac apparently isn’t either and I’m not telling it.
 
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