Opera Software Offers Thoughts on Future of Flash

[adambigjohn]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_3; en-US) AppleWebKit/533.4 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/5.0.375.29 Safari/533.4)

Not a good time for Adobe shares :-/

 

[ranReloaded]

Stuff like this makes me wonder what the heck TiVo was thinking when it went with a Flash-based UI for its latest settop (TiVo HD).

They weren't thinking sTiVo for sure

 

[bobsentell]

Microsoft's comment should also include this caveat: MS Siverlight is a competing standard and so it would be in MS's interest to kill Flash...

 

[webman2k]

I asked where the Photoshop killer is today. Predictably, I got a vague answer about something that may or may not materialize in the future. Apple? Right, except they don't do Windows software (unless it's called iTunes and lets them sell iPods to PC folk), and as Steve said, the OS X version of Creative Suite accounts for roughly half of Adobe's sales. You can't expect to kill Photoshop if you can only reach half of the customer base.

Gimp? Well let's see. Today it's free, and still isn't as popular as the $999 alternative. Good luck there.

I'd rather have Apple code their "Photoshop Killer" from scratch. I mean, let's face it: If you have used Ps for more than, say 5 minutes, GIMP on the Mac SUCKS ***HARD***

You're both missing my point. I stated that Apple "could"pull it off if they wanted to. As a graphics professional and hobbyist tinkerer, I've played with Gimp, on Linux and Mac OS X. obviously, the interface is horrible compared to Photoshop. But, there's a LOT of power and potential under the hood. Apple could start with that powerful base (ie Unix, KHTML) and build on to create a robust, polished app (ie Mac OS X, Safari).

Apple didn't write Final Cut pro from scratch, remember, and it's one of the (if not "the" depending on who you ask) industry standard.

 

[Max(IT)]

I thought apenture was apples photoshop

It is more like Apple's Lightroom

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Apple is more than capable of creating a Photoshop killer, and probably pretty quickly if they needed to:

Unix -> tweaking and paint job -> Mac OS X
KHTML -> tweaking and paint job -> Safari

(I'm sure there are some other notable open source to commercial conversions I'm missing)

Gimp -> tweaking and paint job -> ?

Gimp has more than enough power to compete with Photoshop. Add in some non open source standards that need to be there, and a super slick interface, and there's your Photoshop killer.

Nothing in WebKit is KHTML.

Sorry, but that base was blown up long ago.

UNIX is an ever evolving base that isn't a bit of tweaking.

GIMP has a long way to go to be a Photoshop Killer.

GEGL is way behind where it currently should be and as we all know ICC Profiles dealing with Color space for CMYK and more has a lot of work to be done.

An example of an impressive application is Blender and it's upcoming 2.50.

Inkscape is a pretty solid application but is about 1.5 years behind it's roadmap [which continues to become downsized and reshaped as it misses it's target ideals over the past 5 years].

When Inkscape gets the Engineering drafting capabilities it lamented about 3 years ago, then I'll be impressed.

 

[webman2k]

Nothing in WebKit is KHTML.

Sorry, but that base was blown up long ago.

Webkit was born from KHTML I believe

UNIX is an ever evolving base that isn't a bit of tweaking.

Well, I was hardly trying to be technical, just trying to illustrate the roots of development.

GIMP has a long way to go to be a Photoshop Killer.

Of course it is, that wasn't the argument. Just that Apple has the technical means to get it done, using a similar development technique they've done before with other products.

 

[Killer's Dad]

This is Steves show everybody, not even the FTC can regulate Jobs and crew. Be apart of his technological future or be left behind in a FLASH.

As it should be ... our free market is based upon the principle, Caveat Emptor ... "Let the Buyer beware."

I should have the choice of operating in an open environment of multiple suppliers and vendors where I can choose to customize the products and services to my particular interests - OR - to operate in a closed environment where choices have been made for me.

When those choices no longer fit my requirements, I am free to return to the thrilling world of ultimate choice.

 

[H00513R]

I guess SJ must have rattled something because all of these companies are feeling the need to stand-up one way or the other. It's all rhetoric until websites actually do something about it though. I don't think browsers drive these kinds of decisions, it's the websites.

 

[r00fus]

Guess what? That's exactly what Flash was made for and this is exactly the area where EVERYTHING else completely sucks, including HTML5 (which as of today NO browser actually supports), Ajax, Silverlight, Java and countless other failed approaches.

You want to implement something that's platform and browser independent and that actually works? Flash is the ONLY option. End of discussion.

Platform/browser independent on DESKTOP OSs.

The mobile world has already started dominating... where is Adobe?
If and when Adobe catches up and delivers a working Flash AND it's not a battery hog or crash-fest, THEN you can talk about complete platform independence.

Then again, how long till Flash had an official working Linux port?

Adobe has time to make CS6 deliver and write true HTML5/Canvas ... if they can't, someone else will, and Adobe will lose marketshare.

 

[aristotle]

Webkit was born from KHTML I believe

This is true. Webkit began as a fork of KHTML but ended up being so far removed from what was in KHTML that it became a project of its own like how Firefox grew out of the Mozilla browser project and now Mozilla as a browser is basically dead now.

A lot of people get confused about the roots of OS X. It is not based on Linux. OS X grew out of a combination of technology from Apple that was headed for Copland and NeXT Step from NeXT Inc which Steve Jobs started after he was fired from Apple. Apple later bought NeXT but it really ended up being a case of the NeXT technology taking over Apple.

OS X is a combination of a proprietary GUI and darwin which are both actively developed by Apple. The darwin project borrows from BSD and uses a XNU hybrid kernel that is partially based on BSD and partially based on Mach kernel. OS X is certified as a commercial UNIX.

I believe that OS X does ship with some commercial Unix System V components as well.

Some people confuse GNU tools which both OS X and linux ship with as being "linux" when linux is just the kernel and the bootstrap tools used by linux but the shell comes from the GNU project.

 

[iPrep]

Once again, they all look to Apple to lead the way. Where were all these anti-Flash sentiments before Steve Jobs spoke up?

You are kidding, right? Opera has been saying this for years. You just didn't hear about it until Apple said something. You noticed because someone connected Opera's statements to Apple's statements, but the fact is that Opera has been vocal about open standards for as long as the company has existed.

Guess who started HTML5 in the first place? Opera! Then they got Mozilla on board, and finally Apple, and then they formed WHAT-WG.

"Here at Opera, we are a bunch of me-too guys who cannot make a decision and charge for people to use our sub-standard browser!"

I find it quite amusing when Apple fans bash other products for not being as widely used as some competitors. Mac's market share sucks, remember? And yet Macs are generally considered to be better than Windows PCs. Your logic dictates that Macs are sub-standard because they don't have a lot of users compared to the competition. But we all know that this is false, so your argument is exposed as, well, pure hypocrisy one might say.

And Opera is not on the fence: Open standards are important, but it's also important to support the web as it is today. This is a perfectly reasonable and rational position.

 

[iPrep]

I find it curious that Opera is not being critical of Flash, since their browser sucks when running it. I like Opera's browser on the Mac because it's the only one that does full-screen without a stupid scrollbar! But, I have had nothing but problems with Flash on that browser; either it not working properly or it's performance being so bad I went to Safari.

Strange. People keep talking about how Flash sucks on Mac. Sounds to me like this is a problem with Flash and Mac. Other people are having huge problems with Flash and Safari.

 

[iPrep]

Opera is only saying this because:
...
2.) So they can keep there app in the app store.

You are kidding, right?

Opera has been saying this for years. Pay attention.

 

[iPrep]

(Personally, I know there are a handful of Opera fans in the tech world, and it enjoys more use in Europe, etc, than it does here, but I don't consider Opera to be a particularly influential stakeholder in the future of the Internet... at this point, I feel more like they're the wimpy kid who beats on the bully after someone else has knocked him down already.)

Considering that HTML5 started out at Opera (then Mozilla joined, and finally Apple), I'd say Opera has had a lot of influence on the future of the internet/web. In fact, Opera is heavily involved in various standard bodies and such. They chair several working groups, AFAIK. They have a large number of huge customers and partners like AT&T, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Sony, and so on.

Who is the bully Opera beats on after someone else knocked him down exactly?

Don't forget that Opera has more than 100 million (active) users worldwide. And that is just for the version distributed by Opera. The number does not include preinstalled versions or versions distributed by someone else.

 

[Max(IT)]

Strange. People keep talking about how Flash sucks on Mac. Sounds to me like this is a problem with Flash and Mac. Other people are having huge problems with Flash and Safari.

Flash sucks everywhere, as Microsoft said a few days ago

 

[Groovetube]

Flash sucks everywhere, as Microsoft said a few days ago

really? Because, microsoft 'weHaveSilverlightSoWe'reUnbiased" said that?

Jeez wuddna thought.

The truth is, flash runs great on windows, has for a long time. But if you hate flash, it sucks I guess.

Flash has sucked on mac for years, though improved in playback somewhat last version, and the public beta of 10.1 shows huge improvements. And the new hardware acceleration soon will further improve things.

A lot of the future rests on adobe's ability to respond and deliver, and soon, but I wonder what the flash haters will have to resort to when and if adobe -does- deliver good players.

Make up more stuff to high five about? Well that'd be a huge surprise eh.

The way I see it, flash is really getting a beating in the media with all the 'flash is getting ditched!', when, people are starting to use another delivery method for video. Video, just... video.

Flash had dominance long before they ever introduced video playback in flash 6, which never really came into it's own by flash8. There's no doubt, roles will change, companies will spar, and technologies will emerge, but flash isn't going anywhere anytime soon, regardless of how many anonymous posters make stuff up.

 

[AppleFan1984]

really? Because, microsoft 'weHaveSilverlightSoWe'reUnbiased" said that?

Here's the other half of the Microsoft quote we don't see so much in Apple-centric forums:

Flash remains an important part of delivering a good consumer experience on today’s web

http://www.informationweek.com/blog...l;jsessionid=ZDC0IGC4OB4PHQE1GHRSKH4ATMY32JVN

 

[Hal Itosis]

A lot of the future rests on adobe's ability to respond and deliver, and soon, but I wonder what the flash haters will have to resort to when and if adobe -does- deliver good players.

You are so right... and Apple should never have released the iPhone in 2007. They should have waited until Flash was up to snuff on mobile devices. After all, why push for a real web standard when Adobe's ubiquitousness has served us (especially Linux users) so well, lo these many years.

Yup, if only Apple had waited maybe they could be releasing their first iPhones (and iPads) next year... with full Flash support that we so desperately need.

 

[khrisz06]

You are so right... and Apple should never have released the iPhone in 2007. They should have waited until Flash was up to snuff on mobile devices. After all, why push for a real web standard when Adobe's ubiquitousness has served us (especially Linux users) so well, lo these many years.

Yup, if only Apple had waited maybe they could be releasing their first iPhones (and iPads) next year... with full Flash support that we so desperately need.

I agree. but we also know that we are now living in a fast paced technology, after this there will be a new technology released

 

[Groovetube]

You are so right... and Apple should never have released the iPhone in 2007. They should have waited until Flash was up to snuff on mobile devices. After all, why push for a real web standard when Adobe's ubiquitousness has served us (especially Linux users) so well, lo these many years.

Yup, if only Apple had waited maybe they could be releasing their first iPhones (and iPads) next year... with full Flash support that we so desperately need.

uh, ok, no where did I suggest apple should have waited. Do you mind pointing out where this was even insinuated?

I think you need to slow down, and relax. We get you hate flash. That's nice.

 

[Max(IT)]

really? Because, microsoft 'weHaveSilverlightSoWe'reUnbiased" said that?

Jeez wuddna thought.

The truth is, flash runs great on windows, has for a long time. But if you hate flash, it sucks I guess.

this is BS, not the truth ...
Flash sucks on Windows too, and the simple fact that "suck less" on Windows than on OSX doesn't mean it runs great ...

Flash has sucked on mac for years, though improved in playback somewhat last version, and the public beta of 10.1 shows huge improvements. And the new hardware acceleration soon will further improve things.

A lot of the future rests on adobe's ability to respond and deliver, and soon, but I wonder what the flash haters will have to resort to when and if adobe -does- deliver good players.

Make up more stuff to high five about? Well that'd be a huge surprise eh.

The way I see it, flash is really getting a beating in the media with all the 'flash is getting ditched!', when, people are starting to use another delivery method for video. Video, just... video.

Flash had dominance long before they ever introduced video playback in flash 6, which never really came into it's own by flash8. There's no doubt, roles will change, companies will spar, and technologies will emerge, but flash isn't going anywhere anytime soon, regardless of how many anonymous posters make stuff up.

OMG .... Flash 10.1 showing "huge improvements" ??? Oh yes, now it required "ONLY" 40% of cpu's power to show a crappy movie
Cheers Adobe !

 

[Groovetube]

this is BS, not the truth ...
Flash sucks on Windows too, and the simple fact that "suck less" on Windows than on OSX doesn't mean it runs great ...



OMG .... Flash 10.1 showing "huge improvements" ??? Oh yes, now it required "ONLY" 40% of cpu's power to show a crappy movie
Cheers Adobe !

and how many percent does an html5 video take?

With both now being able to utilize hardware acceleration, the performance has been shown to be about the same.

Companies are switching to html5 likley because of accessability (iphone/ipad etc), not because they care about your cpu...

 

[ct2k7]

and how many percent does an html5 video take?

With both now being able to utilize hardware acceleration, the performance has been shown to be about the same.

Companies are switching to html5 likley because of accessability (iphone/ipad etc), not because they care about your cpu...

HTML5 sends the fans spinning, Flash doesn't on my laptop.

 

[Max(IT)]

and how many percent does an html5 video take?

less, for sure ..

With both now being able to utilize hardware acceleration, the performance has been shown to be about the same.

Companies are switching to html5 likley because of accessability (iphone/ipad etc), not because they care about your cpu...

I'm not saying actual HTML5 implementation is perfect. It's simply better than Flash crapware ...

I simply cannot understand how people could defend Flash ...
Do you (and a lot of other people here) hate SJ so much that you can support Flash only for this reason ?