Phil Schiller Lays Out Apple's Case for Cracking Down on Screen Time Monitoring Apps

[Baymowe335]

So Apple was fine with MDM being a privacy threat for years, right up until it also competed with a iOS feature?

Try to rethink why this comment doesn’t make sense.

 

[jaxemer11]

Almost any app in the store can be abused and or violate Apple policy. The issue is abuse. Apple stated the various removals had nothing to do with competition.

If you don't believe Apple's statement, you might as well sell all your Apple products and move to a different brand, because there really is no logical point in staying with a company you believe lies to you and seeks to tear down other businesses just because it makes money with similar apps.

You think they would say it is about competition ... and get hit with an injunction and treble damages?

 

[Swift]

What could go wrong if Kaspersky was doing it?

 

[Sciomar]

OK ... wait. So it's OK for Apple to use this technology, and collect far more data from every user, but not other companies? That's the definition of anti-competitive behavior (masked in faux altruism). I don't think it will fly with EU authorities. It's amazing how easily it is for Apple to dupe their fan boys and girls.

I don't think you're understanding what Apple did here. Apple pulled applications from the store that were incorrectly using MDM certs because the way they were being used breached data privacy regulations, similar to what Facebook applications did. MDM certs when used by companies for managing devices on the companies' own network is a completely different situation than this issue. Apple does not install MDM certificates on every device they send out, they probably do offer it to their employees who wish to bring their own devices into the company network, but that's also a different situation. In this case Apple is rectifying a data breach issue by removing malicious apps that misuse system administrative certs. It's unfortunate that these apps were able to get on the app store from the get-go, hopefully they will scrutinize more apps going forward.

What is amazing is that you and others like you are very quick to fire off complaints without first understanding what it is you are actually speaking about.

 

[Intellectua1]

I don't buy phones for companies to tell me what I can and cannot put on them or do with them! I normally go between Apple and Android when I get bored with one or the other but stuff like this is making it hard for me to consider Apple again. I can't handle my own privacy, I don't need Apple doing this because they think it's safe for me. We need another competing OS

 

[jaxemer11]

I don't think you're understanding what Apple did here. Apple pulled applications from the store that were incorrectly using MDM certs because the way they were being used breached data privacy regulations, similar to what Facebook applications did. MDM certs when used by companies for managing devices on the companies' own network is a completely different situation than this issue. Apple does not install MDM certificates on every device they send out, they probably do offer it to their employees who wish to bring their own devices into the company network, but that's also a different situation. In this case Apple is rectifying a data breach issue by removing malicious apps that misuse system administrative certs. It's unfortunate that these apps were able to get on the app store from the get-go, hopefully they will scrutinize more apps going forward.

What is amazing is that you and others like you are very quick to fire off complaints without first understanding what it is you are actually speaking about.

Apple doesn't need MDM to collect all that information for itself. And what evidence do they have that any of the app developers were using this technology in a malicious way? They started arbitrarily enforcing a rule, that they made up, which coincidentally gave Apple a monopoly on these features. How convenient.

 

[Arran]

Interesting that of the hundreds of millions of iOS users around the world, Phil replies to just one email and that person happens to be a Mac Rumors member just itching to spread the word to the editors.

Life is a series of unlikely events. We stand on the sidelines and watch them unfold, one by one.

But back to the point - Apple made the right call. Privacy underpins a free society. I suspect the NYT journalist doesn't know (or doesn't want to admit that he knows) that MDM is not appropriate on a privately-owned device.

 

[Garsun]

My families right to privacy is of paramount importance and should never be infringed. This means strong encryption and no government back doors.
That said, my children are my responsibility and do not have a right to privacy from my wife and I. Their data is our data and we (my wife and I) should be allowed to investigate any part of it. I see no reason why my family plan should not have the same capabilities as any company or enterprise. If I purchased the phone and the data plan for my children I should have right to those phones data.
Now it gets a bit more awkward when it comes to my wife’s phone....

 

[jaxemer11]

My families right to privacy is of paramount importance and should never be infringed. This means strong encryption and no government back doors.
That said, my children are my responsibility and do not have a right to privacy from my wife and I. Their data is our data and we (my wife and I) should be allowed to investigate any part of it. I see no reason why my family plan should not have the same capabilities as any company or enterprise. If I purchased the phone and the data plan for my children I should have right to those phones data.
Now it gets a bit more awkward when it comes to my wife’s phone....

Right. Apple's paternalistic hogwash is maddening. People need to be responsible for their own privacy, not outsource it to a multi-trillion dollar corporation that (as much as they try to convince people otherwise) is only concerned about their bottom line. If you don't trust the technology or the apps, don't use them. But don't sit here and pretend like Apple isn't collecting the very same data. I have no reason to think that Apple is using user data for nefarious purposes ... but if they could make money off it, you are fooling yourself if you think they wouldn't.

That's what bothers me so much about Apple's recent "privacy" campaign. They're pretending to take the high road and look like the knight in shining armor, when in reality they are slowly duping people into being paranoid about any non-Apple product (while being lulled into thinking Apple is the paragon of virtue that can always be absolutely trusted).

It's a good thing to be skeptical of technology, and to take appropriate precautions. But that applies to Apple as much (if not more) than everyone else.

 

[macfacts]

Apple is and always has been the arbiter of the App Store guidelines. What is and isn’t allowed is their decision. There is no definitive list of rules, no procedure for changing them and no prior consultation. What may have been allowed at some point in the past might not be anymore when new technology becomes available to the platform, whether as a native feature or a competing service by Apple. It is no secret that Apple changes the guidelines all the time. They explicitly say so in the guidelines themselves.

Whether Apple had any ulterior motives in this case is speculative. The crackdown on MSM misuse is a legitimate reason, the question whether it should have been done sooner is a matter of debate.

You just basically said apple can change the rules anytime, for any reason. So why do so many ppl here just blindly trust Phil (marketing person).

Where is the evidence that apple are cracking down on these apps to protect the privacy of users? It is more believable that the crack down was to promote screen time.

 

[Sciomar]

Apple doesn't need MDM to collect all that information for itself. And what evidence do they have that any of the app developers were using this technology in a malicious way? They started arbitrarily enforcing a rule, that they made up, which coincidentally gave Apple a monopoly on these features. How convenient.

It's plain as day in the initial page of the Developer site, https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/, bullet point 4. You can further scroll down and get into the safety and legal sections within the developer network to see what every developer agrees to upon entering the program. I'm sure there are even more guidelines that must be followed once you sign up and create a developer account.
Yes Apple made the rules up, it's their app store that they're allowing third parties to sell through, any legitimate business is going to create rules to follow and back them up with legal support to protect themselves and their customers.

Apple does have methods for collecting data, but they also allow the end user to opt in or out of those collection methods. You better believe that outside companies have been closely monitoring Apple and their products for any potential privacy violations the moment Apple began their privacy campaign, anything to bring down the giant. I'm glad this is happening too because it holds Apple accountable and makes them practice what they preach. Hence these apps being removed.

 

[macfacts]

The recent qualcomm v apple trial has shown apple will lie to the courts and public. Apple will say one thing in public and the opposite in internal emails.

 

[jaxemer11]

The recent qualcomm v apple trial has shown apple will lie to the courts and public. Apple will say one thing in public and the opposite in internal emails.

They lied to the public about their terrible keyboard for years. Anyone that thinks that Apple is always honest is fooling themselves.

 

[Gasu E.]

So Apple was fine with MDM being a privacy threat for years, right up until it also competed with a iOS feature?

MDM is for corporate phones. Yes, for people who work at a corporation and use phones issued by those corporations, or with a corporate image provided by those corporations-- those people should expect the corporations to have access to data on those phones. Such people can always carry a personal phone as well, if that is a concern-- I carried a separate "feature phone" for years, for my personal calls and texts, for that very reason. But no one working for a corporation should have expectations of privacy when using corporate equipment. Corporations bear a liability based on their employees' behavior when using corporate facilities or when engaged in corporate activities, and it's perfectly reasonable for them to take precautions to protect themselves.

 

[jlc1978]

I was appalled when Amazon Fire was asking me my child’s personal detail, just to be able to use a child profile. I dislike very much this kind of behaviour.

I agree, and when facewd with such requirements either go elsewhere or make stuff up.

 

[Gasu E.]

The information about the use of MDM is in the NYT article though I agree it has a generally critical stance.

I'm looking at the article now. I don't see any reference to MDM or anything that sounds like MDM. It says Apple told developers they used APIs in "an unapproved manner"; but the article pointedly says the specific API usage was not identified.

 

[jlc1978]

I’m no expert, but am I the only one who thinks MDM almost sounds like a malware or a virus or at least similar in some ways to what a malware or virus could do?????

As the article points out, MDM is designed to allow a company or organization to manage a number of their phones more easily. The scenarios I'[ve seen in such cases are pushing out software updtaes to corporate owned phones, license management, wiping lost phones, etc. A very legitimate use.

 

[Ahyeee]

Great. Let's all believe the Apple statement. Now, what do we think of all the developers who told NYT that Apple never explicitly told them what the issue was. Are they all liars?

 

[falainber]

Nothing like straight up fabricating how things happened to continue to push your narrative.

You can’t have it both ways:

• When an App with malware sneaks into The App Store it’s because Apple didn’t catch it, meaning their vetting process is flawed.
• When an App (like these screen time ones) gets into The App Store, Apple intentionally allowed it in because they wanted the functionality.

It’s amazing the mental gymnastics people go through so they can take any position and twist it to a negative against Apple.

What exactly did I fabricate? You are the one fabricating the narrative. Your post is very puzzling (to say the least). Are you suggesting that Apple is not at fault when they let malware apps into the store? All I said is that if Apple has the rules they should follow them. You can't give us one example of Apple knowingly allowing malware apps into the store and then banning them. In this case, they knew that these apps were using MDM and they let them in. At the very least they intentionally manipulated the rules to their advantage.

 

[thirteen1031]

Not sure how one can argue against Apple here

You really can't. Apps that would gathering private information about children! Consider what would have happened if Apple had not taken them down, and if it was found that the private info on thousands of children had been gathered and disseminated via one or more of those apps...YIKES! You can bet Apple's negligence would have been front page news on NYT and every other newspaper in the country.

Shame on NYT. It should clarify why Apple removed the apps, apologize for the bad reporting...and it should (though likely won't) praise Apple for its vigilance.

 

[mi7chy]

This isn't new. Apple is heartless about bullying its suppliers and throwing them under the bus so it's no surprise it also does it to developers. Remember when Apple stole and integrated f.lux's idea into iOS then booted it from the app store? Then, use a bunch of shill accounts to make it sound like Apple did the holy thing. Rinse and repeat.

 

[I7guy]

What exactly did I fabricate? You are the one fabricating the narrative. Your post is very puzzling (to say the least). Are you suggesting that Apple is not at fault when they let malware apps into the store? All I said is that if Apple has the rules they should follow them. You can't give us one example of Apple knowingly allowing malware apps into the store and then banning them. In this case, they knew that these apps were using MDM and they let them in. At the very least they intentionally manipulated the rules to their advantage.

This is the narrative that op was referring to when one assumes Apple “let” these apps in (and then finds a way to ding Apple online) as opposed to “slipped past” the net. At the very least the devs may have misrepresented how their apps work.
[doublepost=1556470748][/doublepost]

This isn't new. Apple is heartless about bullying its suppliers and throwing them under the bus so it's no surprise it also does it to developers. Remember when Apple stole and integrated f.lux's idea into iOS then booted it from the app store? Then, use a bunch of shill accounts to make it sound like Apple did the holy thing. Rinse and repeat.

Devs misusing Apis and misrepresenting apps aren’t new either. rinse and repeat.

 

[jaxemer11]

.

 

[realtuner]

You said:

“So Apple mislead the developers by breaking their own rules. They probably did it because they did not want to lose to Android which offered this functionality.”

So please show me your source/proofs that Apple misled developers by breaking their own rules or they did it because of Android functionality. Your statement implies an action taken specifically by Apple as opposed to a mistake.

 

[ZipZilla]

I criticize Apple all the time, but they did the right thing here. No app developer should have MDM-level control over your phone