Phil Schiller Says Apple Tested and Rejected Touch Screen Macs, Finding It 'Absurd' on a Desktop

[apolloa]

Honestly, you cannot tell me that looks more productive. Constantly adjusting the display positioning, moving the keyboard, hockey puck, and mouse out of the way just so a user, working on a desktop at a desk can fiddle on the screen with a finger... it looks neat but it isn't in practice.

Yes, I guess there are advertisements. Oh, and could they rip off Apple's look-and-feel in the construction of that video some more?!? I half-expected to hear Jony Ive doing the voiceover!

BTW, you will note that in EVERY SINGLE SHOT of the Surface Studio, the actors are VERY CAREFUL to SUSPEND THEIR ARMS AND HANDS IN THE AIR.

And there is a VAST DIFFERENCE between having to do that for a 10-second video shot, and ALL DAY LONG in an office, don't you think?

Of course not.

Sigh... let me help you with the target market for the Microsoft Surface Studio...

http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-27-qhd-touch

Oh look, it's professional artists using Macs and 27" touch screen drawing tablets in the exact same positions as the Surface Studio.... now if only Apple made that, oh what's this... oh is that a price tag of $2700 WITHOUT A COMPUTER?? Surely not....

Please I suggest you two stop defending this BS by Apple and Phil Schiller as its embarrassing. Instead educate yourself about the markets that ALREADY USE DEVICES THAT APPARENTLY NO ONE WANTS OR IS CAPABLE OF USING WITHOUT THE HUMAN BODY CHANGING FORM........

 

[thealkimist]

Sigh... let me help you with the target market for this device...

http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-27-qhd-touch

Oh look, it's professional artists using Macs and 27" touch screen drawing tablets in th exact same positions as the Surface Studio.... now if only Apple made that, oh what this... oh is that a price tag of $2700 WITHOUT A COMPUTER?? Surely not....

Please I suggest you two stop defending this BS by Apple and Phil Schiller as its embarrassing. Instead educate yourself about the markets that ALREADY USE DEVICES THAT APPARENTLY NO ONE WANTS OR IS CAPABLE OF USING WITHOUT THE HUMAN BODY CHANGING FORM........

Surface Studio's primary competition will be with Wacom, not Mac.

 

[Beavix]

With the PC market dying the slow death that it is, I don't think Apple feels its a worthwhile investments to spend so much $$ to re-imagine an OS for a shrinking market. And its hard to argue that they're wrong in that.

They aren't innovating much in iOS for iPads either, so I think they're just lazy and satisfied with the money coming from the iPhone sales.

 

[Flow39]

I've had a few touch screen Windows laptops in the past, and I did not like them at all. It's not ergonomic, and I'd much rather have a mouse and keyboard that is 10x more easy and comfortable to use.

Sometimes I think people just want to see the touch screen on a spec sheet because it's just one more feature. It doesn't matter if it's actually usable/useful, they just want it on there.

 

[apolloa]

Surface Studio's primary competition will be with Wacom, not Mac.

Hahaha you DO realise the device above is made by Wacom right?

This is a market that has to spend money on a Mac or other computer plus $2700 on a drawing tablet, and Microsoft has made an all in one for a LOT less outlay. That's why people feel Microsoft is gunning after the market Apple has ignored.

 

[sledgehammer89]

"because it would begin a divide between MacBook and iMac."

Apple just started to divide between MacBook and iMac with the ... Touch Bar.

Phil, what an absurd argument. Against a MacPad, running iOS designed Apps on a detached display and macOS designed Apps with display attached to the Keyboard dock.
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It doesn't work exceptionally well for touch and it doesn't work exceptionally well for the keyboard and mouse. It's a hybrid child that is malformed and poorly thought out.

When I could detach the display from my MacBook, it looks really like an ... iPad. If Apps switch then to iOS counterparts, exactly nothing is malformed. Or in your opinion every iPad App is malformed...
Again attached to a Keyboard dock, the Apps switch back to the macOS counterparts. Exactly nothing is malformed again. Or in your opinion every macOS App is malformed...

 

[skellener]

I think Apple's executive team made the right choice to not merge touch screen with the desktop. One of the reasons I moved away from Windows ever since they introduced the craptastic Metro UI is the fact that 1) it looks ugly 2) It doesn't work exceptionally well for touch and it doesn't work exceptionally well for the keyboard and mouse. It's a hybrid child that is malformed and poorly thought out.

My friends show me at school how they can touch the screen and interact with the icons, but all I see are the smudges across the screen.

I don't like the screen being touched. The screen has 1 purpose and that is to display your data and media to you. Using touch will 1) Cover the usable area 2) Create smudges over the screen 3) Require the UI to be completely redesigned, effectively turning the screen into a 27" iPad.

People use macbook line up because they want more power and precision. They like that tactile keyboard and precision of a pointing device and not sacrifice the touch experience. How can you have all 3? Simple. A mouse, a keyboard, a trackpad. Get it?

And now with the touch bar, it enhances the touch functionality further. Future generations of the track pad can allow even more gestures thanks to the taptic engine and larger usable space.

For the few who are rich and can afford gigantic mansions, I guess microsoft's approach would work. Those lucky folks have large desks that can tilt their 27+ inch monitors to suit their angle and needs. For the less fortunate like myself, every inch of desk space counts. The last thing I want is for my monitor to span half the desk space I have so I can "touch it". Phil is right in that it is absurd when you stop to think about it. I want a mac that uses as little desk space, gives the larges viewing angle possible and not sacrifice touch, tactile experience of the keyboard or the precision of the mouse. This is as good as it gets!

I think they really did put a lot of thought into this and it is why I am still a big fan of the Mac OS today. God forbid they move into the same direction as Microsoft. This experience is what makes the Mac great.

A Cintiq works just fine with the current UI. It's Apple that is falling behind with Pro hardware for Pros.

 

[nazaar]

Are you a design researcher? Are you certain Apple is completely out of touch with this or are you simply just very easily dazzled with the 'new and latest thing'?

FYI I'm a seasoned graphic designer. And our company utilizes Macs and PCs.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

The saddest thing about this is that they aren't saying they are opposed to it out of some design principle or other deep reason. Rather, they just couldn't figure out how to do it well. Which is an engineering and design problem, the sort of thing Jobs excelled at. They're basically admitting that they're no longer smart enough to come up with (admittedly difficult!) design solutions to the sorts of complex computer design problems the future will hold. They aren't even saying no one else will solve these problems, or that they are impossible to solve, or that touch isn't the inevitable future. They're just saying they can't figure it out themselves, and are basically just going to wait for someone else to.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

Steve Jobs died. The rest of the Design Team and Hardware and Software Engineering Teams and Market Research Teams and and and DIDN'T DIE.

 

[SBlue1]

Surface Studio is not a desktop computer. Don't get me wrong. It's a great piece of HW and design, but it's not an every-day computer. It's a tool for designers and architect, not a mainstream device.

The Apple target group. Creative people.

 

[Olganech]

Glad you make the most of what you use. But you seriously don't see the duplo-block sized nature of Windows 10? On a notebook it cannot even fit the five settings categories on one screen. Why would you want to fit less on a screen because it had to be upscaled to accommodate "touchscreen" UI? Why would you want that when a notebook already has a keyboard and a HUUUUUGE force sensitive multi-touch surface? I am trying hard to see the other side of this.

I may want to rip the screen off and use it as a tablet.

I may also just use the search box as I do on my phone. Again it is options and people can choose how they want to interact with the computer.

I am not your typical user. I run Windows 10 and 2 VM's of Android and MacOS.

So I have Win32 applications running and UWP's that I run on Phone and PC.

I can also run Android apps that are touch of course. I can also run MacOS apps.

So I cover all bases with a single bit of kit when needed.

I also have other Windows devices as well as an Android tablet plus an iPad Air 2.

At work I use a Lenovo X1 Carbon and a MacBook Air. The X1 is my daily driver.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Here's Apple's patent for a touch screen iMac from several years ago which looks remarkably similar to the new Microsoft computer: http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/the-mother-lode-welcome-to-the-imac-touch.html

That's actually close enough that Apple ought to cry foul!

 

[StayPuft]

Honestly, do you REALLY think that the company that PIONEERED the modern SUCCESSFUL Tablet (and don't talk to me about all those horrible Windows tablets of yore!), AND the first USEABLE Touch-Screen smartphone hasn't REALLY given this a THOROUGH LOOK?!?

Seriously?

This entire post is a straw man. And you actually just used the exact argument I made for why they're perfectly capable of doing it. I'm well aware of their touch screen capabilities. But saying it doesn't work when others have made it work successfully is what's being discussed here.

 

[melendezest]

I've never dismissed the iPad as a large iPod Touch. It is more capable than that, but it is no desktop/laptop replacement the way Tim Cooke would like us to believe. On the other hand, a Surface Pro makes a decent laptop, but a heavy tablet. No thanks on that.

I'm not convinced that Steve would have had a much better vision than Tim et al. Perhaps they've slowed some given the sloth with which the Mac and iPhone lines have been updated in terms of chassis design. The real difference though is that the competition (Microsoft and Google) have *finally* started to pick up the pace and match Apple at its own game (managing both hardware and software). That's a good thing as it will force Apple to keep from being complacent (or else they'll die out).

I didn't say you dismissed the iPad either. I was alluding to the fact that just because we or Phil haven't thought of an interesting or beneficial use-case for a touch screen does not mean it doesn't exist. That's what vision is all about. Like others have pointed out, this is Phil's Steve Ballmer moment.

Now, IDK which Surface you've used but I found the Surface Pro to be surprisingly light for what it is. I haven't A/B'd it against an iPad Pro, etc, but I found it to be lighter than I expected. But again, I'm not really trying to use and hold it as much as I would if I was really laying into its capabilities. For that, I'd set it down.

We can speculate to no end what Steve would have done, so that argument can go either way. And I agree that the competition is catching (or has caught) up.

But the problem I see is that Apple is still in full Ballmer-mode, regardless of what the competition is doing.

They've led for so long that they don't know how to follow.

And it's a shame, because I'd want stuff from Apple still, if only they weren't so pig-headed.
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And "Tapping really quick" on a Trackpad nearly the size of an iPad mini isn't good enough, why?

Because you have to move your hand to the trackpad, figure out where the cursor is, move the cursor to the target, then tap.

 

[StayPuft]

Hit the gym? Are you serious here or just ignorant of reality? Raise your arm and hold a pencil. See for how long you can do that.

Quite a while, actually. My arm with a pencil in it isn't heavy. Anyway I was being facetious. Obviously a touch iMac wouldn't be comfortable, but something like the Surface Studio makes a lot more sense because you can draw or whatever downward without stressing your arms.

 

[BootsWalking]

You'd say that no matter what.

So to recap, you don't own a touchscreen notebook, you referenced only those who said they didn't find them useful, and you accuse the owner of one (me) of lying about finding them useful. That's a perfect strategy for forming and confirming an objective opinion about something.

 

[Enygmatic]

Apple tests before releasing. MR forum members review before testing.

There needs to be more that one can do for posts like these, besides "like". Have some non-viewable MR Gold, good sir!

 

[nviz22]

Or they could just do what MS did, and just put a Mac mini underneath a display on "nice", pinch-my-fingers arms. Yeah, that's innovation alright...
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They are? Outside of one MS fanboi here at work, who has a SP4, and the news-sets you see on TV with Surface Pros sprinkled about by MS' marketing and product-placement departments, I don't know a single person who is even INTERESTED in one, let alone HAS one.

Oh, my favorite confirmation bias type of argument. Just because nobody you know buys them doesn't mean it's selling worldwide. Microsoft wouldn't invest into more Surface products year after year. It's not like the Lumia/Windows Mobile.

 

[Sedulous]

Sigh... let me help you with the target market for the Microsoft Surface Studio...

http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-27-qhd-touch

Oh look, it's professional artists using Macs and 27" touch screen drawing tablets in the exact same positions as the Surface Studio.... now if only Apple made that, oh what's this... oh is that a price tag of $2700 WITHOUT A COMPUTER?? Surely not....

Please I suggest you two stop defending this BS by Apple and Phil Schiller as its embarrassing. Instead educate yourself about the markets that ALREADY USE DEVICES THAT APPARENTLY NO ONE WANTS OR IS CAPABLE OF USING WITHOUT THE HUMAN BODY CHANGING FORM........

So you think because a niche market has a genuine use for a touch screen that is already addressed by a dedicated peripheral that everyone should have to pay for a touchscreen and the downsides that come with that?

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Oh right, and iPads don't need a stylus. Can I tell Phil Schiller how many times when I'm looking at the external screen of my MBP that I've reached up to touch it to do something. They were wrong about the stylus, and they are wrong about this too. If I could afford to buy all the replacement software I'd need for a Windows machine, I'd be out of the Mac world. About the only way I could accept this was if I could use my iPad as an imput device for the Mac.

You mean like THIS?

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/25/d...ensitive-input-for-apple-pencil-and-ipad-pro/
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Which is why the Mac Pro has just TB ports right? Oh wait…...

Yes, Apple was WAY out in front on the TB ports on the Mac Pro; however, history seems to be (finally!) catching up with their vision for Thunderbolt:

http://www.ultrabookreview.com/10579-laptops-thunderbolt-3/

 

[Mike Oxard]

He's courageous like that.

You're not allowed to mention courage in Macrumors forums any more, I got a post deleted by the mods last week for it. I didn't have the courage to complain too much though

 

[Lankyman]

Schiller has seen the surface studio, right?

My thoughts exactly. What Schiller has also alluded to with that statement is Apple is simply going to carry on regurgitating the same old iMac. Has Apple totally lost the ability to innovate and design? The only mantra they seem capable of these days is 'let's make it even thinner'.

The Studio Surface may be niche and may be expensive but you've got to love the fact that at least one company are innovating.

 

[SpinThis!]

Hahaha you DO realise the device above is made by Wacom right?

Apple could do a Cintiq-style computer if they wanted to do so. Guess what? They haven't because it doesn't work. And probably wouldn't sell well. Apple hasn't even updated the Mac Pro—which is hardly niche compared to the Studio.

This is a market that has to spend money on a Mac or other computer plus $2700 on a drawing tablet, and Microsoft has made an all in one for a LOT less outlay. That's why people feel Microsoft is gunning after the market Apple has ignored.

So really, the only thing that Microsoft is innovating on is price. Gotcha.

People spend a lot of money on their tools that make them more productive. $2700 amortized over a 5 years time is less than $2 per day. Or if you count 2040 working hours in a year, about $.26 per hour. If you're a pro artist, it's a no brainer. For everyone else, that touch display is a wasted opportunity.

The Studio Surface may be niche and may be expensive but you've got to love the fact that at least one company are innovating.

How exactly are Microsoft innovating? What problem are they solving again? I'll paraphrase Steve Jobs again: touch makes a good demo but it doesn't work.

 

[rippley5150]

It'll absurd until Apple releases a touch screen computer. Then it will be magical lol

 

[Works4Me]

Well, for what my opinion's worth, I've stopped taking Schiller seriously a long time ago. I'm not saying he's a dumb guy, but he does tend to speak in black and white terms. And as Obi-Wan said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" (yes, I know that even that statement is absolutist)

He (Schiller, not Obi-Wan) also belittles, glosses over problems, and often says cringe-worthy things. It's gotten to the point where I actually wonder if he believes what he says or is misleading on purpose. I'm not sure which is worse.