Phil Schiller Says Apple Tested and Rejected Touch Screen Macs, Finding It 'Absurd' on a Desktop

[Altis]

Wait... Phil knows about desktops?

 

[Abazigal]

Schiller has seen the surface studio, right?

Which to be fair, isn't perfect or immune to criticism.

https://www.macsparky.com/blog/2016...-30-minutes-with-the-microsoft-surface-studio

You can select menu items and make selections with your finger but you have to be deliberate and careful. Most of Windows was designed with the idea that you'd have a one pixel sized mouse pointer. In this context, my finger was a blunt instrument and several times Windows mis-read my true touch target.

In more traditional apps, like Microsoft Word, the touch interface was less useful and more wonky. Word is way more touch-friendly on iPad than the Surface Studio.

I had the Microsoft employee show me some of its features and at this point it’s pretty limited. We got it to work as a volume dial and a zoom dial in a 3D application. In Microsoft word, spinning the dial acts as an Undo. I felt like it should do more.

Pinching and zooming with my fingers on the Surface Studio (when available) was bad. When I tried this, the screen was non- responsive for a moment and then jumped to the screen being bigger or smaller. The frame rate was effectively reduced to one frame per second or two. The Surface Studio hasn't shipped yet and I'm guessing Microsoft is working on fixing this, but this lag reminded me that Windows as a touch operating system, still is pretty wobbly.

Even if it were running macOS, I'm still not sure how much I'd use a drafting table Mac. macOS and, realistically, Windows are not very touch friendly at this point.

Though he did conclude by saying that

There were a lot of Windows enthusiasts there ready to check out the Surface Studio and they were excited. The vibe was similar the one I felt while standing in line for the first iPhone. That can only be good for Microsoft and Windows fans.

 

[Abazigal]

My thoughts exactly. What Schiller has also alluded to with that statement is Apple is simply going to carry on regurgitating the same old iMac. Has Apple totally lost the ability to innovate and design? The only mantra they seem capable of these days is 'let's make it even thinner'.

The Studio Surface may be niche and may be expensive but you've got to love the fact that at least one company are innovating.

Which is great for the exceptionally small niche of users who might genuinely want a touchscreen drawing desktop for their needs. Not so much for the rest of the users who don't.

It's easy to make something different, not so easy to make something different and better.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

How do you charge your iphone?
How do you use all your pro equipment

iPhone charging? Like this:

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/M...d=aos-us-kwgo-pla-btb-slid--product-MK0X2AM/A

Search time: 0.5 secs.

Connecting to "Pro" equipment? Well, that depends on the interface the Pro Equipment has, now doesn't it? But I'll tell you what: With 80 Gbps of raw I/O bandwidth (pretty much TWICE as much as any other laptop!), and an internet-full of adapters and cables to get from USB-C to WHATEVER YOU WANT cheaply and easily, it isn't even a problem.

For instance, I can turn EACH of those USB-C connectors into FOUR USB 3.0 connectors, EACH running full-tilt 5 Gbps. And we still have THREE Ports left...

Same with FireWire, Ethernet, HDMI, Audio I/O, External Graphics Cards, etc etc. USB-C/TB 3 can be easily and inexpensively "broken out" to ALL those things, many of them SIMULTANEOUSLY.

For example, here's the truly amazing amount of I/O you can do with ONE USB-C/TB 3 Port on the new MBP:

https://eshop.macsales.com/preorder/owc-thunderbolt-3-dock/

So don't you worry about "lack of ports" or "Pro connectivity" with the new MBP. It's got that part DOWN.

 

[saintstryfe]

Let's revisit the quote: “Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd.”

The "absurd" part is not touch screen. It's not even reaching over the air. It's having to reach over the air. That's the leap where Schiller lost me. Suggesting that if there is a touch screen, all other input options suddenly disappear.

The “lowest common denominator thinking,” the idea that things have to work the same way on desktops and laptops is a philosophy that's omnipresent at Apple. It's the reason iWork apps for Mac were dumbed down to work like their iOS counterpart. But it's a very restrictive and limiting philosophy. Having consistency is good, but dismissing a feature simply because it may not be useful to every user is absurd. That's why optional features are offered.

But whats the point of having all this engineering put in to add this feature if it's not going to contribute anything but being another side option? Does Ford design cars around cup holders, or do they design a car then figure out where to fit your slurpee?

I sell Windows 2-in-Ones at my store, and you know what? I'd say about 60% of them the first words out of a persons mouth when I tell them it's touch screen are "that's cool, but I don't need that. Does it use a mouse?". Tech people love the idea of touch screens. Its something to prop the costs of a rapidly shrinking segment up. Real people it's about 10/60/30 about actively liking them, not caring and actively disliking them.

And on 2-in-One laptops the problem I find is when you flip the screen around it feels terrible. The screen jiggles every time you touch it if you leave the screen up, or it's flat, meaning you need to prop up the system. And detachable ones are terrible - either they're so low end they're not worth having, or so high end (like the Surface Pro 4) that they're beyond the reach of most people. At least at my store, there's no middle ground. These stupid touch screens are also one reason why I have two classes of laptop: Craps with 4-6 gigs of RAM under 400, and good machines that only start at 600.

 

[Michael Goff]

Which to be fair, isn't perfect or immune to criticism.

https://www.macsparky.com/blog/2016...-30-minutes-with-the-microsoft-surface-studio











Though he did conclude by saying that

The guy does know there's a version of Office on Windows that is better for touch, right?

 

[keithtae]

Ya ya ya. Always knew "the new macbook has outsold previous models" is nothing but pure ******** marketing.

Now they are using Phil Schiller to convince everyone that touch bar is not a gimmick?

Can't wait to see when that gimmick bar lags and hear all the users say "it's great! And it doesn't lag!" Lmao.

 

[Black Belt]

Just make a Magic Keyboard Phil, DUH! Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

 

[bobborries]

Apple wanted to prevent tired noodle arm syndrome.

 

[Abazigal]

The guy does know there's a version of Office on Windows that is better for touch, right?

Probably doesn't scale all that well on a 27” display at any rate.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

If anything, that's Apple's biggest weakness: they are unwilling to experiment on the hardware side.

Are you new around here?

Did you not read Phil Schiller's words saying THEY ALREADY TRIED THIS?

Here's a nice PATENT for ya FROM SIX YEARS AGO, if you think the Surface Studio is so INNOVATIVE, and something that Apple could NEVER have dreamed-up:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/the-mother-lode-welcome-to-the-imac-touch.html

Look familiar?

Apple spent $10 BEEELION dollars on R&D last year. Do you REALLY think it cost that much to develop the Touch Bar??? Or do you think they just wasted it on Vente Mocha Lattes from Starbucks?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Schiller has seen the surface studio, right?

I'm sure he has. His latest statements featured in this article are mentioning "desktop" as a workspace and yet conversely specific to the iMac.

First off I'm super annoyed about the terms: Desktop and Window (their two often referenced differently in the computing space).

Back on topic ...the Microsoft Surface desktop recently and geniusly shown just a week before late 2016 MBP's is just that ... a Desktop Computer. It's heavily shown off to computer against MacOS for visual artists and desktop publishing/editing focused use cases. But this doesn't work as a laptop, hence why from Day 1 Microsoft only shows the touch-screen of the Surface Pro 1-4 and even the Surface Book where users choose the touchscreen for minimal input/interaction when the keyboard is enabled/used ... and moreso when detached. This is the arguement Schiller is focusing on.

Schiller is focusing on day to day broad range use cases, not a specific set of tasks by those visually acute in visual arts or desktop/web publishing (photoshop, print press, magazine editing, image upload to web, etc). I do believe this is a good argument and Schiller specified this a few years ago whent the original Surface debuted.

Yes, other than TouchID I heavily feel Apple's technological relevance has been holding back their average user in terms of slowing technology implementation vs advancing along with them (smartphones, desktop computing - including the OS capabilities), but I think they're right with end user interaction of a computer in the traditional sense.

IMHO.

PS: TouchBar 1 touch to solve many secondary actions (tap tap tap or tap+hold to lower/raise volume/screen-brightness).

I think Apple was LAZY in not creating Developer guidelines on the TouchBar:
Verge reviewer stated why do some sliders or buttons show up on 1 side versus another? End users cannot expect a default scheme of interaction or response from interaction with the touchbar. This isn't coming across well. Apple step it up!

 

[Nevaborn]

So many people saying see the Surface Studio it's amazing. How many have tried it ?

I use a Surface for work and the Studio will have same problems I have. The software is still Windows so it will end up a mess, the hardware will fail as I have yet to find a Microsoft product that didn't have a sub standard component that wears with use. Finally it is massiv lay inconvinient to have to touch a computer display like the Surface as it is not purely designed for touch plus you lead horrid marks on it.

I think the new MacBook is uninspired but Microsoft is by no means a solution.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

And again, who cares if it's a niche product? The point is it can be done. We're discussing Phil's comments here. Apple has put a lot of energy into "touch" technology for years with their iPhones. You'd think with Apple's engineering and coding departments they could figure something out. They could rival Microsoft if they wanted to. Or maybe they've just grown so comfortable in what they're doing that they can't innovate like that anymore.

Um, they already DID figure it out. SIX YEARS AGO:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/the-mother-lode-welcome-to-the-imac-touch.html

Look familiar?

 

[Abazigal]

So many people saying see the Surface Studio it's amazing. How many have tried it ?

I use a Surface for work and the Studio will have same problems I have. The software is still Windows so it will end up a mess, the hardware will fail as I have yet to find a Microsoft product that didn't have a sub standard component that wears with use. Finally it is massiv lay inconvinient to have to touch a computer display like the Surface as it is not purely designed for touch plus you lead horrid marks on it.

I think the new MacBook is uninspired but Microsoft is by no means a solution.

I think it will be amazing for small niche of users who have need for a 27” touchscreen, like artists.

It will continue to be dead weight for the rest of rest of the users who don't.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Just make a Magic Keyboard Phil, DUH! Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

BlackBerry has specific patents on this ... hence why nobody in the entire industry smarpthone or desktop/notebook has created one. Sony has it for PS3 add-on keyboard using Bluetooth but that mysteriously disappeared with PS4 lineup.

FYI: BlackBerry Passport - yes horrible smartphone but the keyboard was very well done: does support muli-touch, the PS3 keyboard supported touch- for navigation but that's it, not nearly as advanced.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

yeah Phil Schiller's got problems

I'd love to have HIS problems!
[doublepost=1479165834][/doublepost]

You forgot;
How do you restore your phone.?
What happens when you’re on site and they tell you radios off\/
What about a Time Machine back up?
What about target display?

You're kidding, right?

 

[derekamoss]

Probably doesn't scale all that well on a 27” display at any rate.

Actually the UWP apps scale great which the touch office suite is. Win32 apps like regular office still have scaling issues. MS did a really good job at the scaling aspect of UWP apps if you change windows sizes it even dynamically changes the ui elements automatically adding extra columns of info or the layout of the program.

 

[usarioclave]

Apple spent $10 BEEELION dollars on R&D last year. Do you REALLY think it cost that much to develop the Touch Bar??? Or do you think they just wasted it on Vente Mocha Lattes from Starbucks?

You can spend 10 billion dollars figuring out how to piss more effectively. The magnitude of spend alone doesn't mean anything. Xerox has blown an order of magnitude more than that with very little result.

Remember what Steve said?

ARTISTS SHIP

Designers masturbate.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

No it isn’t. I’m a keyboard warrior. People, ( and I’m betting the vast majority), are already used to going from typing into a field using the keyboard then moving hand to the mouse for the next field and then guess what…….typing into a field using the keyboard.

They do this countless times while filling just one form. Wow, yeah, what a deal breaker.

Wrong.

TRUE "keyboard warriors" use the TAB KEY to traverse to the next field in an input form.

Try it sometime. You might like it!
[doublepost=1479166167][/doublepost]

Well, I think we can end the speculation here on whether or not Apple has lost it, because the answer is yes. Refusing and just outright dismissing future innovation possibilities is just absurd. I have a new slogan for apple: We used to think differently, now it's microsoft's turn. I mean come on, where is the ipad pro with osx? Or where is the real pro of iOS that can handle file management and full word processing and excel?

Hey:

Apple already did this and rejected the idea, and HERE's the Patent from SIX YEARS AGO to prove it:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/the-mother-lode-welcome-to-the-imac-touch.html

 

[seatton]

If that's the case, can they do something with iPad Pro so that the touch feature is meaningful for pro users?

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Yup. But they've had their head in the sand without thinking differently. Sounds like they've only considered the iMac in its current form factor.

You are SO wrong!

Here's an Apple Patent from SIX YEARS AGO:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/08/the-mother-lode-welcome-to-the-imac-touch.html

Remind you of anything we've been discussing here?

 

[iLog.Genius]

Absurd...until Apple decides to do it.

 

[dugbee]

They are just creating artificial problems that they can pretend to solve later on. "If we were to do Multi-Touch on the screen of the notebook, that wouldn't be enough -- then the desktop wouldn't work that way." And Tim in 2012 said (in regard to Windows 8) "You can converge a toaster and a refrigerator, but those aren't going to be pleasing to the user."

Of course Tim is right on that one. A refrigerator and toaster are completely different things. I wouldn't call an iPad a toaster and a MacBook a refrigerator, but I might call them a toaster and an oven. Frankly the MS Office apps have the right idea. I can go from OneNote on my iPhone, to my iPad, to a desktop version, to a web version.. I never get confused about why my desktop doesn't "work that way."

But alas, all of these problems will be solved like @melendezest indicates in several postings. Apple will brag about how converged devices have never worked, until Apple solved the problem with their magical device using an amazing new iOS/MacOS hybrid.

And I'll buy it right away.

 

[LordBeelzebub]

I like MS's new Studio. I think it's really for any one, keyboard and mouse for when you need to use Word Excel, then the screen tilts down and in combination with the dial, it's perfect for artists and photo editors, also Illustrator. I think there is a large enough market for it.

I use Abobe CC products all day at work, would love something like the Studio for home use too. I wanted an iMac till I saw that, that has more versitility in my eyes.