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Piracy and Mac OS X
- Thread starter arn
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AlphaTech
macrumors 601
Re: Re: Pirates...
The reality of the matter is that you HAVE been given free updates to OS X 10.1 (all the way up to 10.1.5).
I would gladly pay $69 to get 10.2, just as I intend to pay the $49 for the iTool/.mac upgrade.
I think there would be much less stink about the entire price issue if Apple offered the full version of OS X (and subsequent pay updates) for $100. Just as they did until OS X came out.
The reality of the matter is that you HAVE been given free updates to OS X 10.1 (all the way up to 10.1.5).
I would gladly pay $69 to get 10.2, just as I intend to pay the $49 for the iTool/.mac upgrade.
I think there would be much less stink about the entire price issue if Apple offered the full version of OS X (and subsequent pay updates) for $100. Just as they did until OS X came out.
Rower_CPU
Moderator emeritus
I'd say that you need to look at your priorities as well, Pephez.
Since when do digital audio and video production come before providing food, shelter, medical support and basic education? It sounds to me like you are denouncing the supposed elitism here, when your charity work is exactly that: elitist.
I live in San Diego, and I know what the US-Mexico border situation is like. Drug cartels and political corruption on both sides of the border prevent positive action from taking place. Why not address those issues and enrich the lives of the entire community, and not just a select few individuals who obviously have attained a certain level of education, if they are able to use computers as you describe?
I'm sorry, but your protestations fall on deaf ears since their inherent value is skewed to fit into your self-serving justification.
PS. Apple, MS, etc. won't be coming after the people you help...they'll be coming after you, the one who broke the EULA.
Since when do digital audio and video production come before providing food, shelter, medical support and basic education? It sounds to me like you are denouncing the supposed elitism here, when your charity work is exactly that: elitist.
I live in San Diego, and I know what the US-Mexico border situation is like. Drug cartels and political corruption on both sides of the border prevent positive action from taking place. Why not address those issues and enrich the lives of the entire community, and not just a select few individuals who obviously have attained a certain level of education, if they are able to use computers as you describe?
I'm sorry, but your protestations fall on deaf ears since their inherent value is skewed to fit into your self-serving justification.
PS. Apple, MS, etc. won't be coming after the people you help...they'll be coming after you, the one who broke the EULA.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
I agree that violating the law can, in some cases, be the right thing to do. But I don't believe that software piracy generally falls anywhere near that category.
Who voted for Fritz Hollings? The entertainment corporations? I didn't think so. Fritz Hollings is in office because apparently a lot of people like what he's doing. If they didn't like it, they wouldn't have re-elected him. If there were a more desirable candidate for office to the people of SC, then that person would be in office right now. Not every candidate is so corrupt. It is perfectly possible to run and win on anti-corruption platforms, as numerous politicions on all levels of government have done and are doing.
What the hell? I think it's terrible that people "slave for my benefit on barely sustenance wages." What that has to do with pirating software, though, is beyond me. It seems to me to be a different argument entirely.
Who is forcing "them" to work for Apple? If they're feeling exploited, they shouldn't work there. And I'm still unsuccessful in my attempts to connect this argument to software piracy. Does working for a crappy wage give "them" permission to commit piracy, an illegal act? Does the fact that Apple has lots of cash in reserve somehow give "them" the right to this cash?
I don't personally subscribe to the Ten Commandments. I remarked that software piracy was immoral to anyone whose sense of morality was based even loosely on respect for the law.
Who ever said it was tantamount to murder or rape? I didn't. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Hold on for a second while I wipe the tear from my eye. (And I'm not sure who Adam is.) You actually TEACH philosophy? Oh my, and all this time I had thought you had merely failed the intro class. The standards must be pretty low down there.
No, their crime is not that they are poor. Their crime is possession of pirated software. You are an accessory to this crime. Like it or not, the law is the law.
Who is this Adam you keep referring to?
And what "smug sense of divine privilege" are you referring to? All I'm saying is that if it's illegal, don't do it. I don't care about your socioeconomic background. Rich or poor, illegal acts = wrong. If that's a smug sense of divine privilege, then call me Allah.
Considering their economic status, I'd settle for a small fine and removal of said pirated software from their possession. I'm all for helping the underprivileged, but I am not all for doing so by committing illegal acts.
What does this have to do with anything at all we're talking about in this thread?
When did I ever say they did come before that? I didn't and they don't. I have, however, been remiss in describing the context of this project. We do this project as an adjunct of the very things you are describing. The money we collect has not gone to buying Power Macs and Final Cut Pro - it goes to providing necessities. I am a volunteer, as is an American dentist (he provides free dental and oral care every Saturday - actually I happen to know he spends quite a bit of his own money on supplies, and, believe me, he doesn't do it for the tax break - which is negligible), a couple of US medical doctors, a professor of mathematics, a Women's Studies prof, Buddhist temple volunteers, many university student volunteers - everything from botany to engineering to geology, a Catholic priest, the Mexican Communist Party (yep - chew on that), various musicians, painters and artists, legal activists and attorneys from both sides of the border, etc., etc. EVERYONE involved knows damn well what the top priorities are. And, beyond that, whatever skills or educational opportunities any given volunteer can present is a welcome and encouraged bonus.
Thus, I do not see anything elitist about providing the education and means to aesthetic and artistic expression. Our "students", if you will, are working class poor. Last time I looked, I saw no daughters and sons of rich government officials or drug lords at any of our education seminars. So don't talk to me about the "elite" bogeyman.
I spend most of my time teaching English grammar, writing skills, communication skills, social philosophy, a bit of German language, aesthetics. If these people - most with little more than the equivalent of a 6th grade formal education - are able to learn these subjects, it's not a problem for them to learn how to operate a digital video camera, Final Cut Pro, Logic Audio or OS X. Do you really believe it requires a PhD to be able to do this stuff? I can tell you about one gentleman (now 38 years old) who only three years ago could barely read in his native Spanish (he had to work to survive from the age of ten). Today, not only is he an avid reader of advanced philosophical texts and novels, he also knows how to install and configure Linux systems better than the volunteer who originally taught him the rudiments of the OS. (As for myself, I know diddly squat about *nix systems, though I am now learning from this man.) Better still, he is now able to teach others these skills (language, literacy and computers). And that he does - he gives his time to his community every day. And isn't that what it should be all about?
I do of course agree with you - basic necessities must be provided first. I do indeed know what the priorities are. But there is nothing elitist about sharing knowledge and skills (and the equipment needed).
I think I just answered your concerns. I do disagree with your self-defeating pessimism, though. I have seen positive changes occur in the lives of individuals, despite the fact that drug cartels and political corruption are still very much in place.
You live in SD - so what are you doing about any of this? We started all of this with nothing - just a few people with some basic ideas and no funding whatsoever.
Again, reread my post. First of all, MS won't be coming after me - they were the only ones who legally donated software. We have no pirate copies of MS software on any of those machines. No one involved here WANTS to be breaking any laws, no matter how trivial or unfair they seem to us. One of the positive effects of this entire thing is that there are now people who have the skills and knowledge to install and maintain Linux (read: open source) software and OS's. Of course we want to move more in this direction. (As I do at home, for my own reasons, as I'm tired of being gouged, simple as that.) But until there are free and reliable Linux equivalents, we'll continue to use our "immoral" copies of FCP, Logic Audio, et al. (We hardly ever use Photoshop anymore, prefering MacGimp for obvious reasons.)
Well, Rower_CPU. if you care to give us $600 for a legal copy of Photoshop, no - we'd still spend the $600 on food and clothing and run MacGimp. And if you want to give us $1000 for a legit FCP, no, sorry - we'd also spend that on necessities and continue running the "immoral" copy. Such are the priorities.
And if Apple would like to come after me for breaking the EULA for this, by all means, bring it on. Let them deal with the PR fallout. Would be interesting to see a case in which a multi-billion dollar corporation is nit-picking over a broken EULA in order that the working poor can have access to it. The added bonus would be that evil Bill Gates would come out looking benevolent (Microsoft gave freely, after all) and Steve Jobs would be painted as a heartless villain, snatching iMovie away from hungry children. Which is exactly why Apple would never pursue the case.
But if they did ... well, I'm ready with my Socratic defense strategy. Who knows? Maybe they can somehow fit this into the "Switch" campaign. I got it all worked out: show a Mexican or Chinese factory worker - better still, someone who works at an APPLE factory - have him/her say to the camera, "If Apple ever decides to pay me a living wage, I'm definitely gonna buy a Mac!"
Well, Alex (not Adam, my mistake), there's a difference between empty rhetoric and the reality of one's actions, and the sad truth is that most "anti-corruption" rhetoric is just that - empty campaign rhetoric. George W. Bush railed against "corruption" - now can you say "Enron"? Can you say "Harken Oil"? But now that you bring it up, I seem to remember that the candidate who WON the election actually isn't in office, so tell me more about corruption and the unsullied purity of our election process, all right?
Go back to my original post. I pointed out that those who pirate fall under one of two general categories: 1) those who would not purchase the product anyway (Carracho users and the like), and 2) those who cannot afford to purchase said product (those who live in third world countries who literally earn $2-6 per day). It is point 2) that has everything to do with the argument. Which brings me to ...
What a marvelous solution, Alex! If the poor aren't happy, then let them go elsewhere, get a better job. I have news for you, boy, they can't simply walk down the street and take that $50K per year consulting job, just as starving Ethiopians can't stroll to the local Safeway for some groceries. Do you think that people are working for $2-6 a day because they want to?! Do you think they really have a choice?! And do you think they are happy with their utter lack of choice? Wake up!
Neither do I, but then you are the one bringing "morality" into the debate, aren't you? Let's see this in perspective. I imagine that we could agree that software piracy is an illegal act. At best it should be considered a misdemeanor offense. Tell me, is driving 1 mile per hour over the legally posted speed limit immoral? Is playing music too loud after 10 p.m. an immoral act? These are two relatively trivial examples of breaking laws. So just what is your standard of judgment? I would say that the above two examples are mere annoyances - those guilty of breaking those laws may be accused of insensitive, boorish behavior, if you will, but IMMORAL? And, again, who are you to decide what is moral and immoral?
You boasted that you are not a snitch, but you sure have no hesitation over judging other people's "moral" behavior. How smugly self-righteous is that?
I should add that there is a perfectly valid reason why I mentioned that we have attempted to get software companies to donate to the project. This is a non-profit organization with virtually zero cash reserves, set up to benefit people who likewise have zero cash. Don't you see that we do NOT want to break any laws, even if we personally feel them to be rather silly? This was a chance to tell these companies, look, this is what we are doing, this is the benefit which results for people, we cannot afford to buy this stuff, but if you wish to donate freely (or offer an affordable alternative), we would be most grateful. Now no one is expecting a handout or think ill of them if they refuse. But if they wish to be benevolent, all well and good for all concerned. It directly helps people, perhaps gives the software execs a good feeling, or, if not that, perhaps they reap benefit from positive PR resulting from their donation. Whatever. Microsoft gave something, no one else did. Subsequently, we did not have to resort to using pirated, illegal copies of Mac Office (and, yes, Office is necessary in these educational programs - anyone who wishes to seek secretarial or paralegal work is expected to know how to use Office) - and we are grateful for that. So read what I wrote very carefully - there is nothing inconsistent in my arguments here.
So let me summarize the world of law 'n' order according to Alex, as far as I understand it - and please DO correct me if I am wrong:
- Anti-corruption rhetoric = anti-corruption fighter; if Fritz is there, then all must be right with the world.
- Poor people shouldn't be exploited (true), but no one is forcing them to be exploited (dictates of hunger and basic necessities aside, I guess).
- If they don't like it, let them eat cake. Or "go get a better job".
- Now since they are poor and immoral lawbreakers (since they are using pirated software they couldn't otherwise afford), you'll be the benevolent dictator and wipe their machines and give them a small fine. How nice of you. The poor do not "deserve" what you have, never mind that MOST of what you have (where was your Mac manufactured and assembled? Cuppertino? I think NOT) is being made by these very same people whom you are so willing to brand "immoral lawbreakers".
Alex, I'm very happy that you are in a privileged position and have choices that most of the people in this world will never have, but you just can't seem to realize the reality of the situation. I just wish that you'd drop the smug condescension over those less fortunate than you. I know, I know, you keep chanting that "the law is the law is the law". Well, some laws are just and some aren't. You seem to believe that the poor should know their place, and if they cannot afford the asking price of something like computer software, they should content themselves with leaving well enough alone, lest they commit "immoral" acts. Or wait until they can save enough money to buy it themselves (again, I invite you to do the math). I guess you're not all bad. At least you'll let them off with a small fine, and not the firing squad.
Rower_CPU
Moderator emeritus
Pephez-
I commend your group and their efforts, but I still don't see how your work addresses the "big" picture. Creativity and self-expression are leisurely pursuits that very few get to enjoy. How are your participants selected? What requirements must they meet in order to gain access to what you teach?
Again, I say contribute to the humanitarian aspects that are needed by so many.
I have donated, and will continue to donate, to causes that I deem worthy...but if you tell me that your organization flaunts the law so brazenly, just as Enron and the others you are so quick to vilify, I say that you deserve whatever fall-out comes your way.
I commend your group and their efforts, but I still don't see how your work addresses the "big" picture. Creativity and self-expression are leisurely pursuits that very few get to enjoy. How are your participants selected? What requirements must they meet in order to gain access to what you teach?
Again, I say contribute to the humanitarian aspects that are needed by so many.
I have donated, and will continue to donate, to causes that I deem worthy...but if you tell me that your organization flaunts the law so brazenly, just as Enron and the others you are so quick to vilify, I say that you deserve whatever fall-out comes your way.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
Yes, there is a lot of empty campaign rhetoric on every topic, government corruption included. If voters have a problem with that, they will keep on electing different candidates into office until they see the results they want. Show me a government that ISN'T corrupt, please. (Not to justify corruption, but to point out that a flawless political system has not yet been devised.)
To rehash my cable TV example: I steal cable TV. I wouldn't purchase my 150 channels of pay-per-view anyway.
I make diddley squat and I can't afford 150 channels of PPV either. Which has everything to do with my argument... that I am entitled to free PPV! Yeah, baby!
I've asked you time and time again, what the hell does this have to do with software piracy. Unless you think that an individual's right to pirate software is dependent upon their income level, this is another argument entirely. So start a new thread already and stop going off topic.
I'm bringing morality into the debate as it deals with legality.
If every law violation were equivalent, every violation of the law would carry the same penalty. This is obviously not the case. Software piracy is different from driving over the speed limit, it is different from playing loud music after 10pm. Morality is obviously not an objective concept, but I think many (in fact the vast majority) would agree that taking the fruit of several, dozens, hundreds, or thousands of other people's hard work, without paying for it, in violation of the law, is immoral.
Yes, if I see someone do something that is obviously illegal and immoral by most definitions of the word except yours, I'll probably judge them accordingly. If that's smugly self-righteous, then I guess I'm an evil, smug, self-righteous bastard. So sue me.
In regards to your situation in Mexico, I think what you're doing, and what's happening there - the education and uplifting of the poor - is great. The ONLY thing I have a problem with is your attempts to justify piracy. It is under all but the most exceptional circumstances immoral, and yours do not qualify. If you want to pirate software, then fine, I'm not going to stop you. But do realize that it's wrong. Immoral, illegal, wrong.
Alex
I tell ya what sux about all this hardware/software integration. If I buy some software, whether it be graphics or OS or whatever, I will someday sell the computer. The first thing I do when I sell the computer is to clear off the drives and install the OS that came with the computer. I sure don't leave the software, OS, etc. that I bought on the computer. That's mine. But if the serials become linked to the hardware in any way - this could become an extreme hassle for both the user and Apple. Apple would have to go through some bizarre procedure to change the serial to the new hardware.
Out of the examples given 1 - speeding, endangers people's lives, but they also chose to be out there on the road too. Not immoral. Negligent maybe. Malicious or immoral, no. 2- playing music after 10pm, insensitive, rude, maybe malicious. Not really immoral. 3 - pirating software, taking something that isn't yours. Thievery. I believe there's a commandment about that one! I think it would qualify as immoral in any definition of moral I could find. You're taking money directly out of the stores hands. You're raising the prices on the software and taking money out of the hands of those who do buy it. You're possibly putting people out of work. If the software were discountined you might put developers out of work and companies out of work that relied on the software. But hey, you'd sure as heck teach the kids not to grow up and be software developers.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
What the hell are we arguing about then?
You're making it sound as if you would have resorted to piracy if Microsoft hadn't offered to donate software. Is that the case?
Of course not. I think Fritz is a terrible senator, I am an independent, and there are many better candidates running for office that truly would clean **** up. Just look at the numerous third parties out there - they're on the ballots, it's just that not many (or, few) seem interested in voting these candidates into office. So we have Fritz. Who won a clean election. It wasn't until after he assumed office that Disney and the entertainment companies bought him.
The second point is not accurate. Instead of correcting it, I'd just like to say that for approximately the 118th time that I don't think these points belong in this thread, as they have nothing to do with software piracy.
No - since they are lawbreakers. I don't care that they are poor or immoral and the law doesn't care either, unless either of those pertain to legality.
Thank you.
I'm only willing to brand the ones who actually pirate software as immoral lawbreakers. I wouldn't imagine all Apple assembly plant workers are software pirates. But yes, that is correct. Do you mean to imply that the poor deserve unfettered access to high-priced professional software just because they work for the same company that produces machines on which said software is able to run? If that's the case, then I'm voting you in as President in 2004, because my yearly income is below $5k, which means I'm poor and I should get all the software I want for free! Wooooooohoo!
So you think the software piracy laws are unjust then. Well, why didn't you just come out and say so to begin with?
If you think software piracy laws are unjust, work to change them. And if the reason you can't change them is because you encounter too much resistance from anti-piracy advocates, then tough - you'll have to be content with piracy being illegal. In the case that your efforts to legalize piracy are unsuccessful due to government corruption - which I HIGHLY DOUBT would be the case - then that's another story.
Well, hey, it's a crappy situation. I wish everyone could just have everything they wanted. There is LOTS I would like to be able to afford but can't. But there's this thing called "class." No matter how much we humans try, we just can't manage to get rid of it. This guy called Marx had an idea a while back, and it was implemented in the Soviet Union but failed to remove all class distinctions - the leadership was in a higher class than the proletariat. Pure capitalism doesn't really care about class - it allows wide gaps to open up. Pure socialism theoretically equalizes class, but as I mentioned, there has been no perfect pure socialist society yet.
So what should we do? Software publishers can't just let anyone who wants their software have it. They have to make money in order to continue to produce their software. Should they offer separate high-income and low-income versions of their products? Separate business & personal versions? Whatever you decide, the fact remains that until a more equitable pricing structure happens, software piracy by the poor or by anyone for that matter will be illegal and immoral.
Alex
We attempt to provide basic needs (food, clothing, shelter, education, legal aid) first and foremost, and we also contribute what we can in other areas. I think that the pursuit of creativity is part of human nature, and no one should be deprived of that simply because they are poor. And I've said that we do not WANT to violate the law with any of this, but there is just no possible way we could ever afford to buy (say) copies of FCP for every machine. At the very least, I did pay for my own copies of all of the software - and it is these that were also installed on the machines. A violation of the EULA license? Yes, but one I'm not going to lose any sleep over. And I seriously doubt this such a piddling act puts me on the express train to eternal damnation or the top or even bottom of the FBI's most wanted.
(For what it's worth, the EULA licenses are of dubious binding legality - no one has ever tested any of this in court to my knowledge. And I couldn't possibly imagine that any software corporation would ever want to use a situation like mine to test it!)
Please note that I make a distinction here. I am not handing out my copies of software to middle class college kids or any of my professional colleagues. I'm well aware that I could at any time get all this stuff for FREE off Carracho. That would even be less hassle than ordering it legitimately, I could have easily saved myself a few thousand dollars (which IS a lot of money to me), but I don't do that. I'm hardly rich, but I do make enough to afford to buy FCP and OS X - and I did just that, I bought them.
As for the requirements for anyone to participate, we're not running a state university with prerequisites. It's very simple - anyone who wants to walk in and do this is welcome to. No one has to sign anything, no one even has to give their name if they don't want to. Some people come in and leave after 5 minutes, some people express a brief interest and then move on to something else, some spend all of their free time obsessively making music/video. One young woman who began her video-making experience here has since - on the basis of her work produced and edited on this begged, borrowed and pilferred software - has been awarded a full scholarship to the Mexican Film Institute (a big deal under any circumstance - even more amazing when you consider that her parents have never had anything beyond a 6th grade education). It's up to them. No tricks here - there's nothing elitist about any of it. Just the opposite, in fact.
I could cite all sorts of examples - the kid who turned away from gang-life and smalltime drug dealing after discovering and cultivating his painting talents, and so on, but I don't want to sound sentimental or corny about any of this, but it is true. I don't think there's anything inconsequential or trivial about helping people cultivate their talents and interests.
I'm afraid that this has gotten WAY off the topic thread, so if anyone wishes to continue these matters, please begin a new thread.
Rower_CPU
Moderator emeritus
Once again, my congratulations for what you and those you have helped have accomplished.
I was taking umbrage with your assertion that even if I was to contribute to your cause you would use the money for purposes other than those for which it was given. You would take my money, ostensibly given for software, and use it for supplies instead. Why focus on the software at all, if it detracts from the real need?
I was taking umbrage with your assertion that even if I was to contribute to your cause you would use the money for purposes other than those for which it was given. You would take my money, ostensibly given for software, and use it for supplies instead. Why focus on the software at all, if it detracts from the real need?
AlphaTech
macrumors 601
You know something Pepzhez... there are things called grants that the government gives out for people/organizations to do education projects (among other things). Did you consider applying for some of those to set up your 'program' properly, or did you just go to the software companies looking for a handout??? There are also many companies that donate to nonprofit organizations all the time. They do that for the tax write-off as well as the good PR it provides. There are also churches that make donations... There are even activities that YOU could do to raise funds. Simple things like bake sales and car washes are used all the time to raise funds for all kinds of things (typically by nonprofit organizations).
So the next time you claim that trying to help out 'poor' people is justification for pirating software just remember that you are committing felony theft (one copy of PS alone ($600) more then qualifies I believe).
Something else to think about, would you justify shoplifting because the people are too poor to purchase the stuff from the store??? Acts like that are what drives up the prices for the rest of us. twit 😛 😀
So the next time you claim that trying to help out 'poor' people is justification for pirating software just remember that you are committing felony theft (one copy of PS alone ($600) more then qualifies I believe).
Something else to think about, would you justify shoplifting because the people are too poor to purchase the stuff from the store??? Acts like that are what drives up the prices for the rest of us. twit 😛 😀
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
An analogy:
I think that the understanding and appreciation of the art of the pornographic film is essential for the human spirit to grow and thrive. And I should not be deprived of that simply because I cannot afford it. That is why I steal pay-per-view television. I don't WANT to violate the law with this act, but there is just no possible way I could ever afford to subscribe to so many pay-per-view channels. At the very least, I did steal the pay-per-view signal from my neighbor who did pay for his. A violation of the law? Yes, but one I'm not going to lose any sleep over. And I seriously doubt this such a piddling act puts me on the express train to eternal damnation or the top or even bottom of the FBI's most wanted.
(Besides, I couldn't possibly imagine that any cable company would ever want to use a situation like mine to test their no-pay, no-watch policy!)
Please note that I make a distinction here. I am not inviting any kids or any of my professional colleagues in to watch the Sunday Afternoon Anal Marathon. I'm well aware that I could at any time get all these movies for FREE off Carracho. That would even be less hassle than watching them legitimately, I could have easily saved myself a few thousand dollars (which IS a lot of money to me), but I don't do that. I'm hardly rich, but I do make enough to afford to buy certain individual porn movies - and I did just that, I bought them.
I think that the understanding and appreciation of the art of the pornographic film is essential for the human spirit to grow and thrive. And I should not be deprived of that simply because I cannot afford it. That is why I steal pay-per-view television. I don't WANT to violate the law with this act, but there is just no possible way I could ever afford to subscribe to so many pay-per-view channels. At the very least, I did steal the pay-per-view signal from my neighbor who did pay for his. A violation of the law? Yes, but one I'm not going to lose any sleep over. And I seriously doubt this such a piddling act puts me on the express train to eternal damnation or the top or even bottom of the FBI's most wanted.
(Besides, I couldn't possibly imagine that any cable company would ever want to use a situation like mine to test their no-pay, no-watch policy!)
Please note that I make a distinction here. I am not inviting any kids or any of my professional colleagues in to watch the Sunday Afternoon Anal Marathon. I'm well aware that I could at any time get all these movies for FREE off Carracho. That would even be less hassle than watching them legitimately, I could have easily saved myself a few thousand dollars (which IS a lot of money to me), but I don't do that. I'm hardly rich, but I do make enough to afford to buy certain individual porn movies - and I did just that, I bought them.
Well it could be tough to mount a fight if you're the only one in Montana within 75 miles of civilazation. 😉
We do receive some grants, yes. And we spend a considerable amount of time and effort on raising money. If you'd read what i actually wrote, you'd see that there is involvement from everyone from the Catholic Church to the Mexican Revolutionary Communist Party. Also many businesses donate food, clothing, etc. We do know what we're doing and are not merely writing letters asking for free copies of Photoshop.
I think we will have to differentiate between outright theft (say, I ran into CompUSA and ran out with a stolen copy of FCP) and an end-run around the EULA, which is applicable to my case (installing my legally purchased copy of FCP on multiple machines, in direct violation of the EULA). Now, software end-users agreements have not been tested in court. Let the moralizers worry about immorality here, but I think legally-speaking, we are talking about two entirely different acts. Add to the legal wrangling that I committed these allegedly illegal act in a foreign country, not in the US, and that the evidence is outside of US jurisdiction. Does any corporate lawyer want to touch this one?
That all depends on the circumstance, wouldn't it? I don't believe there are moral absolutes in this scenario, and I'd find it hard to believe that you would think there would be. If penniless people were starving while a fully stocked Safeway sat right across the street, by all means would I encourage them to break the damn door down and take whatever food they could get out of there. If we're talking about middle class teenagers lusting over some garment at the Gap, well, no, of course I would not encourage shoplifting in this case.
And to address another question raised concerning Microsoft Office, yes, I would violate the EULA in order to teach people to use the app, if there is no other choice. If MS Office skills are a determining factor in finding secretarial/paralegal work (and they are), do you think I am about to deprive people of that learning opportunity by telling them, "Oh, very sorry, I know you would like to acquire the necessary skills on this computer in order to land a better job (with better pay), but I can't break this EULA agreement because that would be illegal and morally incorrect"?
If breaking the EULA will help these people improve their situation - when it LITERALLY comes down (for them) the difference between a job which hardly provides sustenance to one that will accord an entire family 3 meals a day, hell yes - to hell with the EULA! (Fortunately, in the case of MS Office, we don't have to concern ourselves with that, as they legally donated copies to us.)
And I don't believe anyone here at Macrumors would be so heartless to disagree with that, would they? At least I hope not!
As I've said, I admit what I have done and am fully prepared to argue it in court, if need be.
Now, AlphaTech, I don't believe that my actions have driven up the price of software for you or anyone else (or me - remember - I BUY my own software). Or let's look at it another way: now that Windows has product activation, FCP disc images are now apparently impossible to copy, and Photoshop has similar protections - tell me, so now will the price of Windows XP, FCP and Photoshop come DOWN in the near future? Let me know when it happens, OK?
And why the "twit"? No need for name calling, really. I'm respectfully treating you as a reasonable, intelligent adult; is it too much to expect reciprocal behavior on your behalf?
Sun Baked
macrumors G5
Pepzhez why bother worry about EULAs when there is the Business Software Alliance to provide the proctology visits.
Get familiar with this phone number 1-888-NOPIRACY or the website http://www.bsa.org/usa/
Just because your crime helps the needy doesn't mean it'll keep you out of jail if you piss off the wrong person.
Get familiar with this phone number 1-888-NOPIRACY or the website http://www.bsa.org/usa/
Just because your crime helps the needy doesn't mean it'll keep you out of jail if you piss off the wrong person.
AlphaTech
macrumors 601
Theft is theft no matter how you look at it.
Again, theft is theft (and morally wrong) no matter how you attempt to justify it (as well as against one of the ten commandments). There are NO circumstances where you can justify breaking into ANY kind of store or stealing items from it (food and/or clothing included). By breaking into the safeway you are doing more then just stealing from the store, you are raising the prices to everyone else. The insurance company will charge higher premiums to that store (eventually if not right away) which will either force them to increase the price of items or force them out of business.
Would you justify stealing a van if you "needed" it to help transport people???
Also doing an "end run" around the EULA IS theft, the same as stealing the application off a store shelf.
BTW, I don't agree with stealing ppv channels either. If you are that 'hard up' for the porn, then get it some other way. 🙄 I pay good money for the cable channels I get (no ppv's) and would be royally pissed off if I found someone else piggy-backing my cable.
While it is nice that you are trying to education some people, it still doesn't justify theft of any kind.
Re: Apple's Greed Will be It's Downfall
I'm usually a fun, loveable guy on here but you are indeed a misinformed d*mb*ss. How long have you been in the Mac market?!?!?! Remember Mac OS 7.6??? It sure didn't cost as much($99 I believe) but it offerred very, very little that didn't already exist in patches that were freely available for 7.5.5. Amelio himself admitted this while running Apple. They needed it to bring in a little money during those hard times. At least Mac OS X 10.2 offers something you moron!
What IT planet do you live on?!?! Most OS's tend to get slower as they get developed. Look at just about any Windows variant and even Linux. It's the hardware that typically bails them out. If they called this same version Mac OS 11 would you and all of the other dopes on here calm down? As far as I'm concerned it's that close to being a full version increase.
Yeah you only need it to be able to use your system and all. Developers just love their programmers to bang the hardware and share that information with other developers so that they don't bang away at the same addresses and crap. Oh, you probably don't multitask though, do you?(C= 64 is probably too much for you then) Consider then that software costs would go up due to development time without an OS. Oh, lets pirate every update for that too! 🙄
I'll be the first to say though that I would love to see the Mac OS be free and costs made up elsewhere but whether they grasp a business model like that or not does not take away from how valuable an OS is.
You really are a misinformed PC user, aren't you?
So you're simpy upset over what they charge based on the version number?!?! Ever hear of paying for something what it's worth?!?! Try getting past being superficial. They've done this many times before but for some reason people are throwing fits about it now. They did with 7.6 as well but thankfully not as many dopes as you were on the internet then. 😉
You're obviously not a businessman. It's actually not a bad value for the non-geek community. I've even seen it for $80 through MacMall. Even better.
Maybe Apple shouldn't differentiate itself from MS. MS is a successful business that is, oh lets see, the most successful in the world!!!
It must be Apple's Switch marketing that has these newbies out feeling insecure about their status or something. Or maybe it's just PC dweebs switching and wanting to pirate everything. And Apple thought this was a good thing? 😉
I'm usually a fun, loveable guy on here but you are indeed a misinformed d*mb*ss. How long have you been in the Mac market?!?!?! Remember Mac OS 7.6??? It sure didn't cost as much($99 I believe) but it offerred very, very little that didn't already exist in patches that were freely available for 7.5.5. Amelio himself admitted this while running Apple. They needed it to bring in a little money during those hard times. At least Mac OS X 10.2 offers something you moron!
What IT planet do you live on?!?! Most OS's tend to get slower as they get developed. Look at just about any Windows variant and even Linux. It's the hardware that typically bails them out. If they called this same version Mac OS 11 would you and all of the other dopes on here calm down? As far as I'm concerned it's that close to being a full version increase.
Yeah you only need it to be able to use your system and all. Developers just love their programmers to bang the hardware and share that information with other developers so that they don't bang away at the same addresses and crap. Oh, you probably don't multitask though, do you?(C= 64 is probably too much for you then) Consider then that software costs would go up due to development time without an OS. Oh, lets pirate every update for that too! 🙄
I'll be the first to say though that I would love to see the Mac OS be free and costs made up elsewhere but whether they grasp a business model like that or not does not take away from how valuable an OS is.
You really are a misinformed PC user, aren't you?
So you're simpy upset over what they charge based on the version number?!?! Ever hear of paying for something what it's worth?!?! Try getting past being superficial. They've done this many times before but for some reason people are throwing fits about it now. They did with 7.6 as well but thankfully not as many dopes as you were on the internet then. 😉
You're obviously not a businessman. It's actually not a bad value for the non-geek community. I've even seen it for $80 through MacMall. Even better.
Maybe Apple shouldn't differentiate itself from MS. MS is a successful business that is, oh lets see, the most successful in the world!!!
It must be Apple's Switch marketing that has these newbies out feeling insecure about their status or something. Or maybe it's just PC dweebs switching and wanting to pirate everything. And Apple thought this was a good thing? 😉