Piracy and Mac OS X

[sicle]

Mutts and thoroughbreads

Full marks to Pepzhez for explaining what's wrong with the world far more articulately than I could.

Is Photoshop impressive software? Yes. Is it worth it's price? Not for me. Comparing it to a Ferrari, a play thing of the idle rich that doesn't save it's owner a minute of time unless they commit unspeakably immoral acts and break the speed regulations, doesn't do Photoshop justice. I think it would be better to compare it to a bulldozer, way out of my price range and I don't move vast quantities of s**t often enough to justify buying one.

Most people can get by with Graphic Converter for light graphics work. Now there's a piece of software that is more than worth it's money. I would willingly pay Mr. Lemke for his usually free upgrades because I can afford it and I think they are worth it. On the rare occasions when I actually need to move an enormous volume of soil, well the Gimp is free on runs nicely rootless in OroborOSX. Not as good as Photoshop, but for me a solution at a price I can afford.

Why moan? Why whine? Why complain? Why not just not buy? Firstly, I think there was a time when consumers bought Office, Photoshop and other "professional" software. I think people like Kevin Brown and the rest should realise that their sales are not going to be what they were in the past. They need to get real.

But for me, I genuinely don't want to see Apple go down this road. I can never join the Cupertino cargo cult, but nevertheless a world without Apple would be a poorer and less interesting one. I just hope they see sense before it's too late. I whine because I care!

And are the pirates robbing Apple employees? Steve Jobs may not write a line of code, his programmers do, but they are paid wages for their work. Not a line of it belongs to them when they have finished. You cannot steal something from someone it doesn't belong to. Will a company make its employees suffer for the money it loses due to piracy?. Probably. They will pass the effect of falling sales too. What people working for these companies should realize is that they have no real interest in toeing the company line.

The poor shareholders? Cry me a freakin' river! They've just got to realize there's no such thing as a free lunch. Just because you have invested money in a company doesn't mean they are guaranteed an income for life without working. Maybe they should get off their a****h***s, on their bikes and start looking for work. There's not such thing as a free lunch in this world!

 

[8thDegreeSavage]

Wow...lots of upstanding non piracey dudes here.

I guess I will be considered a total criminal


I smoke lots of pot...and im gonna either borrow XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx


Please, some of you people need to get off your high horses.....Get over it, if buying the overpriced upgrade to Jaguar is your cup of tea..go for it, but dont come on here and act like you have never taken something without paying for it.

I dont imagine your mom would stop making cookies if you raided the cookie jar once in a while.



I am a proud member of The Thieves Army...i steal all my wares...except those that are priced and intended for consumers(IE shareware)

Anything thats overpriced(IE XXXXXXXXx) i steal..and no..nothing any of you windbags of the moral high ground can say will ever stop that.

 

[Pants]

Re: Re: PLEASE

Originally posted by peterjhill


You are wrong. Sorry. There is nothing wrong with the law. Most games will let you install it on multiple computers, as long as you only play it on one at a time. Diablo for instance.

When it comes to an OS, even if you are only using it on one computer at a time, you are reaping the benefits of it on multiple machines. It is because of people with this attitude that I hope Apple puts a install code tied to the hardware serial number into the OS. That way, they will sell more copies of the software and recoup more of the cost of developing the software.

As mentioned before, if Bill Gates goes to comp usa and buys one copy of OSX retail, and installs it on all the Macs that they have (yes they have macs, what do you think they develop Office X on, virtual mac for pc?), yes he "owns" all those computers as the majority shareholder, but, umm, it would be totally illegal.

If it weren't for all the software pirates, maybe games wouldn't cost $65 a pop.

so what would apple do with this harvested information? I'm sorry, but I dont trust m$ with this kind of 'contact base' profiling , and I'm starting to see apples mercenary acctions in a similar light. Its a very slippery slope once a policy change like this is made. Similarly, I am NOT happy about buying machines at over the odds prices (and try and argue that desktop macs arent...) loaded with a barely working OS and continually having to buy patches that make it work at accetable levels of performance. Why is an os not the same as a game? I can only use one machine at a time and if I have 3 machines, you honestly think I'll happily shell out 350 quid for them??

I can honestly say that after purchasing over 20 machines from apple over the last gawd knows how long, I'm starting to view them in the same light as any corporate money hungry firm. My cosy feelings for apple products and allegiance are rapidly vanishing.

 

[G4scott]

Re: Morals and the law.......

Originally posted by elgruga

Some idiot on this forum said something like " It was a lousy consumer decision, but a great business decision" referring to the Apple Macworld debacle.

That is Bollocks. Shafting the customers (consumers) is good business? I find that MORALLY reprehensible, and also stoopid. Dont you, Alex?

So, it's good for BMW to start giving away all of their cars? The company would be dead within a week.

Apple can't just give this stuff away. They spend money developing it, and do a good job at making their software and hardware, but as far as wall street is concerned, if Apple doesn't turn a profit, it's bad.

It wont be any good to be a Mac zealot when the company is bankrupt...

 

[mmmdreg]

Apple gives its XServes an unlimited client license so I think that the OS should be free to use within households for unlimited computers...of course unlimited clients and use of OS's are a bit different but still...and also, businesses are a different story so my idea doesn't apply to them...

 

[G4scott]

I have a question.

In your opinion, what is considered over-priced as far as software is concerned?

 

[3777]

LOL...... one more thing to the Microsoft & Apple employees

For those of you who say that people who BUY a program and then install it on more then one of their OWN computers....... raises the price of software....... well..... if you think having everyone but multiple copies of the same program will lower prices then you really are on crack. All that will do is increase profits and raise the stock prices of the companies, as well as raise the 401k statements of their employees. That is why there are so many "moral" posters on this board I think. If not then this site has some of the most anal retentive people the world has ever seen as members. But regardless it would have no affect on price one way or another.

Now as for people who burn copies of Jaguar or XP, and then sell them for 1/2 price or give them away, well yes that is crossing the line, but don't talk bs about buying multiple copies of the same program for every system you own, I simply don't believe any of you who say you would do this. Anf if your not lying then your simply retarded.

 

[peterjhill]

Some, please close this thread!!! It is hard to ignore the idiotic justifications for piracy!

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by G4scott
I remember when Mac users used to be friendly

This issue has lit a fire under this 17-year Mac user, and many other Mac veterans, I believe, because we see Apple in the process of a making a serious mistake with this upgrade policy. They are punishing two classes of customers they should be rewarding: (1) long-time, early-adopter Mac users who migrated to OSX 10.0 a year ago March or 10.1 last September, and (2) people who've responded to the "switch" campaign.

I'm in the former category, and a friend is in the latter. He's a long-time PC user who finally caved in to my relentless brow-beating and bought himself an iMac a few months ago. Now he's faced with the prospect of forking over another $129 to stay updated to the newest version of the OS, and wondering if he hasn't made an error switching to the Mac. He said to me last night something along the lines of "I thought I was getting away from Microsoft-like practices by going with the Mac."

I have only one question for those who'd defend Apple's policies, and would preach to us about the evils of bootlegging: what do I tell my friend?

While I'm at it, I should remind Apple's more recent customers that until MacOS 7.0, Apple never charged even a dollar for an OS upgrade. This new regime stinks to high-heaven. Worse yet, it may seriously wound Apple -- and that, in the final analysis, what is getting people like me so excited.

 

[eddively]

This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in any forum in a long time. Hearing people like you all, suppoed mac-heads, who are just along for the free ride. All you people who pirate software, you remind me of this fat kid who was on my bus in high school, who had funny red hair, and buck teeth, who tried to convince me that Quake 3 is better than UT because you can have it type in mutliple/random colors.

There is no justification for piracy, I'm guessing nearly all of you will keep doing it. But just know, you are just fooling yourself into thinking its okay.

Not to over-exxagerate the issue, but I liked the one where you substitute hardware for software, it starts to make a lot less sense to pirate. This goes from stealing anything thats "tangible" (assuming code is all just "data"), like a car, or food or a house.

I know more high schoolers who make better logic and choices then you guys do.

 

[alex_ant]

Re: Morals and the law.......

Originally posted by elgruga
Laws are made by rich people to protect their property. There is ZERO connection between law and morality, OK?
Morals are a kind of subjective notion based around whatever belief system you happen to 'think' is ok. OK?

Sometimes, Laws are based on morality.

I think that $700 for Photoshop is morally wrong, and in my book legally wrong.
I dont need you to tell me - "well just dont buy it then"
Thats an obvious solution, and one that is morally weak - but I happen to think that its morally WRONG to do what many large corporations are doing - see Enron, etc.

What are you saying then? Because you think the prices of software are both morally and legally wrong, that you have a right to pirate it? Or that you think pirating it is justified?

I have Apple software upgrade coupons sitting on my desk that are 2 f***ing weeks old! And guess what? They aint worth squat.
So why did Apple put them in the TiBook box? Because they used to do upgrades, and now its all just grab.

Yeah, that sucks. But again, Apple never said those coupons would be good for a discount on Jaguar. I think the Jaguar pricing scheme is dumb too, but Apple doesn't owe us anything it didn't tell us it owed us. And unless your software upgrade coupons said "Good for 1 copy of 10.2," Apple does not owe you 10.2.

Guess what? I dont want free software, I just want FAIRLY priced software.

I dont want a FREE lunch, I want a reasonably priced lunch.

I aint looking for a HANDOUT, I just want a fair shake.

Again, you have every right to complain about software prices wherever and to whomever. But as long as software piracy is illegal, you do not have a right to pirate software.

Aex

 

[Baseline]

Software Developers

Am I the only person here with a job as a software developer? The only person who is actually hurt by piracy?

And seriously, as Mac users, you people MOST OF ALL should be against piracy.

What is probably the main reason for people avoiding a switch to Mac? Lack of software. Why is there a lack of software? Easy answer: The companies don't think they can make enough money porting and selling their apps to Mac machines.

Now, let's say some company X is considering a port of their producy Y to Mac. What considerations are they going to make? Well, they'll probably first look at the size of the userbase. Apple has about 5% (and that's being extremely generous).

Alright, so company X sees that the Apple userbase is small, but if you can get a lot of people from that small userbase to buy product Y, then they'd be doing great! Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of Mac users are pirates! Out of all the Mac users, only 300 000 of them have bought Office X
http://www.wininformant.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=25871
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1710
, probably one of the most "necessary" applications for most computer users.

"Well", says company X, "if Microsoft is only selling 300 000 copies of one of the most popular and necessary software packages in the world, how can we expect to make a profit on this port?"

And if you don't like the Microsoft example, use any other one. Every piece of software ANY of you pirate is one less sold copy to show up on some company's financial statement. Other companies look at the sales of other companies, get scared off by low sales numbers, and boom, you've lost yourself more potential ports.

Really people. You want to help out the Apple culture? Get more people buying their machines? Maybe convince Motorola that their will be enough potential sales to put some real research money into new chips? Then don't pirate software. PROVE to all the companies out there currently avoiding OS X that they can make money porting their product. Then maybe this will convince some more PC users to switch over (because a commerical with a pot-headed high school student just isn't convincing me).

Apple has already lost me as a potential customer because the software applications that I want are either in a very primitive state or not even available for OS X. I was all set to buy a Powerbook a few months ago, but when I stopped and really looked at it, I realized it was ridiculous for me to spend that much when most of the software I want isn't even there yet.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by eddively
This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in any forum in a long time.

It's impossible to determine what "stupidest thing" you are responding to, but I'm going to respond directly to your "stupidest thing."

I haven't read every last post in this thread, but I haven't seen many if any begging for your mythical "free ride." What I see, mainly, are people who are concerned about Apple adopting a dumb, and worst of all, self-defeating, upgrade policy. I see people worried that Apple is snuffing out the momentum behind OSX for the potential short-term gain of sucking another $129 out of their most loyal (and newest) customers. I see the very people who should be the most enthusiastic about the Jaguar upgrade saying, "no thanks, I'll pass." I see OSX becoming dead-in-the-water. I see Apple shooting themselves in the foot, then reloading.

I see some people with their heads stuck in the sand, unwilling to discuss the consequences.

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Choppaface


blue is the best color in the world!!! ha ha you're wrong! 😀 😀 😀

but seriously, some things have more depth that that. speeding is illegal but do you speed? if something is illegal, then a society has decided that they don't want somebody to do that. that doesn't mean that doing something illegal is wrong or right, nor does it prove that it is in the best interest of the society or individual not to do things that are illegal. the arguement is not whether what he does is illegal, it is who is hurting who, and who deserves what. labeling something as illegal doesn't mean that all offenders always deserve the same punishment. somewhere there must be more depth, or the community is ignoring diversity.

You are making a distinction between what should be legal/moral and what is legal/moral.

and nobody forces the software writer to write the software. "Nobody is forcing him [or her] into" writing "any software." everybody has to make a living. if you don't approve of how he makes a living, then try to improve his options, because he will not be able to live up to your expectations by himself. censure does nothing but hurt both parties.

Well, to use the cable TV analogy again, nobody is forcing the cable TV providers to run all the HBO and PPV channels. They all have to make a living. If you don't approve of how I make a living, then try to improve my options, because I won't be able to live up to your expectations by myself.

Why should improving his options be any of my business? He's got $20k of pirated software by his own admission, somebody should call the SPA and send the ****er to jail. He is perpetuating a felony. My arse it's not wrong, or wrong to a lesser degree. Being poor does not give you a right to what the more advantaged have. If you want to change the debate to what should be based on class and what should be illegal and what should be moral, then that's fine, but the fact is that piracy is currently NOT based on class, it is currently NOT moral (if your sense of morality is formulated with even loose respect of the law in mind), and it is currently NOT legal.

the difference is that the cable company is thousands of miles away, on a different continent, far away from the juristiction of american morality. sort of like the issue with sat dishes in Canada, but that's a whole nother issue.... but if you don't want to do things that are illegal, that's fine, just grab a plow 😀

No they aren't. Time Warner is based in the USA, just like Microsoft. That's an untrue argument anyway - I can't steal from, say, a French company just because it's thousands of miles away on a different continent. That would be a violation of international law, which does apply here.

Alex

 

[eddively]

I hesitate to think that the reason people are pirating is...because they aren't sure of Apple's business plan. I think its just because they don't want to pay for everything. And yes, by "stupidest" I am talking about everyone who justifies pirating. I'm 17--and I don't pirate. I don't make 6 figures, infact, I barely, if even make 5, but if I want the software, then, well, I'll buy it.

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chuckzee
Everyone who makes a judgment on my morality can go to hell

I'll use whatever software I want at whatever prices I want to pay or not. I don’t give a shiat about supporting Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.--super rich f***s, to them and their kind $120 is the equivalence of 1¢ to a normal working stiff. ---When are people going to wake up and realize that they are supporting and enabling an economic system, which is rotten to the core (Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, Micro$oft.etc) which, in its very essence is immoral.--don't give me any lectures about "stealing" cable TV, music, etc..

Yup. You are supporting and enabling an economic system which is arguably rotten to the core. So don't buy software. Don't use software. Nobody is forcing you to use it. You use the software you've stolen because you're greedy and disrespectful of the law. If I think you're a dick, can I steal from you? Can I? I like your pants. Can I have them? No, actually, I'm taking them, because I don't like you, and because you're rotten to the core. See how bull**** that argument is? Watch your khakis, sucka.

Alex

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chuckzee
Our cars are really not our cars. First of all, I have to register it, then insure it, then keep it gassed up, and then pay various taxes and fees on them etc... We never own them; we support them, so you will be doing me a favor.

"We don't own our cars?" Yes we do. It may be necessary to keep the car insured and gassed up and registered, but that doesn't mean we don't own our cars. (Unless we're leasing them.) We can buy a $20k car, put our name on the title, and then turn around and sell it for whatever it's worth. What about that situation is not ownership?

 

[BobVB]

Re: Re: Morals and the law.......

Originally posted by alex_ant

Again, you have every right to complain about software prices wherever and to whomever. But as long as software piracy is illegal, you do not have a right to pirate software.
[/B]

Only if you hold the law in some special sanctified regard.

There are two ways to look at the law:
a normative ('do it be cause I ask you') political power system, what can also be called a moral or ethical basic of law. If so, then those people will follow the law whether they will be caught or not.

But there is another way, the 'coercive' or "do it or I'll hurt you'" paradigm. In this scenerio, it is only illegal if you get caught.

We as loyal Apple customers used to deal with them in the normative since out of moral obliation and feeling as if we were in a mutually respectful relationship with Apple. But lately Apple seems to have been leaving its moral and ethical roots behind, the .mac hostage situation of iTools email addresses being a prime recent example.

Many feel that Apple has broken the ethical relationship it had with its customers - that you now see more people taking the 'its only illegal if I get caught' mindset is a natural reaction to this.

 

[Gelfin]

From what I've seen the people who have posted a response to this thread so far have mostly fallen into two camps:

1) Piracy is the scourge of humanity and any evil scumbag who in the least way violates his EULA should be crushed like a bug.

2) Software pricing just shows how the capitalist machine is oiled with the blood of the workers and Apple's desire not to have people steal their software will be the trigger for violent Communist revolution. The streets will run red with the blood of the CEOs.

Am I the only one here who thinks BOTH these camps are kinda stupid?

Just as a pragmatic matter, small-scale piracy happens and has always happened. It's pretty easy to fall under the radar where software companies don't really care. Buying one copy of OS X and installing it on two machines at home, while technically a violation, falls into this category. When corporate users, who are the software developers' major source of revenue, start doing it, that causes problems. Also, when it starts popping up online and thousands of people download it and install it on multiple machines without even paying for one copy, that also causes problems.

The very minor case (one copy, two machines) would cost them more to combat than they'd see in revenue. However, this minor case may also be affected by measures taken to fight the more major forms of piracy. Enough people driving at 90MPH and the police will set up a speed trap that may catch you driving only 5MPH over the limit as well. Don't blame the police. Blame the people who went overboard and caused a problem that needed attention.

Likewise when Apple says that they have to take steps to fight widespread piracy, don't be mad at Apple. Be mad at the people who abuse Apple's heretofore laid-back attitude about it. If people weren't openly stealing Jaguar builds online this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Re: Software Developers

Originally posted by Baseline
Really people. You want to help out the Apple culture? Get more people buying their machines?

I've been down that road, and it does not lead to a very happy place. It certainly is not my "job" to convince anyone to buy an Apple product, but this is precisely what many Mac owners do -- preach the Mac until their friends are sick of hearing about it. Then as in my case, a friend responds by purchasing a Mac, and Apple decides he needs to pay for the OS all over again, just a couple months later. Thanks for switching, compadre. So am I going to stick my neck out again for Apple? What do you think?

The problem is, too many people are treating this like it's some sort of deep philosophical issue which raises profound ethical questions. Fundamentally, it is not. In essence, this is a totally pragmatic issue. It's a question of whether Apple will succeed or fail with OSX, and consequently, as a company. How anyone, most especially Apple, thinks they can make OSX a success without their most customers behind them is a mystery to me.

 

[skunk]

Really you should have advised your friend to wait till August and buy Jaguar pre-installed. Timing is everything...

 

[Baseline]

Re: Re: Software Developers

Originally posted by IJ Reilly

I've been down that road, and it does not lead to a very happy place. It certainly is not my "job" to convince anyone to buy an Apple product

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly. I'm not talking about converting people to Macs for THEIR sake, I'm talking about how other people switching would help current users. I also think it's still how people try to preach Macs so much.

My point, is that the more people out there who are switching over, the more companies will be convinced to port their software products, a bonus to everyone owning a Mac. But if most of the switchers/current owners, are pirating their software, then no one will want to port

 

[chuckzee]

Re: Software Developers

Originally posted by Baseline


Am I the only person here with a job as a software developer? The only person who is actually hurt by piracy?

Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of Mac users are pirates! Out of all the Mac users, only 300 000 of them have bought Office X
http://www.wininformant.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=25871
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1710
, probably one of the most "necessary" applications for most computer users.


R

300000@$400 a pop bought in $120,000,000 to Microsoft.

I don’t understand your logic here. I can get WHATEVER software I want for window---that doesn't stop companies from developing for them. Win98 and Office are the most pirated pieces of software available, and I believe Microsoft STILL made Billions on them.

As pepzhez said:

"neither the RIAA, the MPAA, Microsoft, Apple Inc., Adobe or anyone else has ever been able to produce a shred of actual proof that piracy = lost sales. Because it does not. Those who pirate fall into one of two general categories:"

1) Would not purchase the product anyway
2) Could not afford to purchase the product

I don’t give a rat’s ass if you are a software developer with your slavish devotion to the corporation; unless you develop shareware or freeware; you are participating in the perpetuation of greed.

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Pepzhez
Now certainly this is a thread ostensibly (or at least originally) about software piracy, but I cannot in good conscience allow such a grotesque generalization pass unnoticed - the most pathetic, most moronic statement I've ever heard! Why don't you go tell that to Jesus Christ, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Henry David Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Andrei Sakharov, anyone who harbored runaway slaves in 19th century America, anyone who harbored Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe (shall I continue?) - ALL of whom were knowingly, willingly and (yes) bravely violating existing LAWS. I'll leave it to you to consider just how effective their respective protests were, OK?

If you think software pricing schemes are of the same magnitude as the US Declaration of Independence, civil rights, the end of slavery, and the protection of Jews during the Holocaust, there are MANY MANY people who don't agree with you. Frankly I think that by lumping software pirates in with MLK and Thomas Jefferson that you're insulting what these great people stood for. Equating acts of thievery by selfish greedy tightwads with the civil rights movement is shameful.

The fact of the matter is that some (actually many) laws are simply unjust and outright immoral and it's incumbent upon any decent person to disobey them. If you are in need of a refresher of such ideas, then I refer you to The Declaration of Independence, for starters.

Unless the very mechanism by which laws are changed is corrupt (WHICH IT ISN'T), then there is no reason you can't change the laws legally. Your logic is self-serving:

"1) I can change the law legally, or
2) I can change the law illegally but get tons of free software along the way and not get caught!

I choose #2."

Funny to read here actual clamoring (!) for Apple to install security measures, product activation, etc. when I can recall the drubbing Microsoft got - and rightly so! - in these very forums for doing the very same thing in the not too distant past. Ergo, if Microsoft and that mean old Bill Gates does it, it's bad, if Apple does it, it's good? Uh-huh. "Well, Apple is a business." So sayeth the slavish zealots. So what does that Microsoft then? Uh, I guess Microsoft has enough money; they have no real need of any more, but if Apple wants to gouge me, well, that's OK!

I realize that anti-piracy schemes don't work. I have no problem with Microsoft's product activation other than it being inconvenient. As long as the people who paid for the software can use it, fine by me. I don't really care whether or not Apple goes with serial numbers.

Here's some common sense for you: neither the RIAA, the MPAA, Microsoft, Apple Inc., Adobe or anyone else has ever been able to produce a shred of actual proof that piracy = lost sales. Because it does not. Those who pirate fall into one of two general categories:

1) Would not purchase the product anyway
2) Could not afford to purchase the product

All those kids happily downloading on Carracho and Hotline are not feeling grateful that they've just managed to save themselves $600 for Photoshop 7.0 and have instead decided to spend the money saved on jeans and bubblegum. If they even had the $600, believe me, sending it all to Adobe is most definitely not something that has ever cropped up on even the lowest reaches on their list of spending priorities. In other words, no lost sale here.

I agree with this, but there is a difference between the business model that software companies DO have and the business model that software companies SHOULD have. Besides, the fact that I wouldn't have bought a Ferrari anyway doesn't give me the right to steal one.

As for 2), piracy runs rampant in countries which are POOR. It doesn't take an economist to figure out the logistics of this. Microsoft Windows is the single most common pirated program in China (if not the world) SIMPLY BECAUSE THE AVERAGE CHINESE PERSON CANNOT AFFORD MICROSOFT'S ASKING PRICE.

Then they shouldn't use it.

And to whoever it was who had the audacity to judge the gentleman from Venezuela, calling him an immoral pirate and whatnot, well, consider this, Mac users: your precious Macs and the components which constitute them are being manufactured and assembled by low-wage, exploited third world laborers, who, believe you me, are most definitely NOT being paid enough to ever dream of being able to afford one of the damn things. This is a FACT.

These low-wage workers are not committing an immoral felony. The gentleman from Venezuela is. That is the difference. If their wages suck, I have sympathy for that, but at least they're HONEST wages.

Now you may call these "pirates" immoral, against cosmic law and the right hand of the lord's justice, whathaveyou (as someone here did). So if such people pirate/pilfer copies of Windows or Final Cut Pro or whatever, well, who are you to judge?

If somebody steals somebody else's car, who am I to judge the actions of that somebody? I don't know, you tell me.

That's pretty moderate and generous compared to what some there would perhaps prefer to do. That is, line up corporate America in front of the firing squad for human rights violations, environmental damages, and gross exploitation of labor (in most cases, child labor).

So the generalized wrongdoings of the companies from which software is being stolen give software pirates a justification to steal software? In other words, do two wrongs make a right?

What you really saying is that it's A-OK for these people to make your products for slave wages,

No, I'm saying slave wages is a different argument from software piracy. You should start a new thread.

Alex

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by skunk
Really you should have advised your friend to wait till August and buy Jaguar pre-installed. Timing is everything...

Well, I'm a friend, not an advisor, but I couldn't very well have advised him to wait for a product that didn't even have a ship-date back in April or May when he bought the iMac. I suppose I also need to remind you that 10.1 was a free upgrade. Nobody but nobody expected Apple to adopted this scorched-earth upgrade policy with 10.2 -- which is why we're debating it here.