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You are completely ignoring the part where the Apollo dev said he and other third party app developers totally understood having to pay for API access and were more than willing to work with Reddit

No, not ignoring that.

You can't have it both ways. "Free" api was never reasonable to both sides. It was only reasonable to Apollo, not to Reddit which is why they're changing it. So if you're fine with Reddit setting a "FREE" price, then you should also be fine with Reddit setting a high price. Otherwise, you should be arguing for Apollo to backpay all the free API usage for the past 5 years AND Reddit should set a lower price.

You don't get to use the API for 5 years for free AND dictate the price of the API going forward. You can't have one side without the other and call it fair.
 
"Free" api was never reasonable to both sides. It was only reasonable to Apollo, not to Reddit which is why they're changing it.

I disagree actually: offering the API for free could have been a long-term investment on the side of Reddit to foster the development of their ecosystem.

This doesn't mean Reddit is in the wrong for asking for money now, only that there are arguments as of why it might have been reasonable for Reddit not to ask for money before.
 
There's no evidence to show Apollo brought many users to Reddit. And even if there was, how do you know those users wouldn't have discovered and used Reddit even if Apollo didn't exist?
I used Reddit with the official app very sporadically, I didn't particularly enjoy the experience and so didn't use it often. I saw a post somewhere listing some 'essential' iOS applications and Apollo was one of them. I gave it a try and it transformed Reddit into something bad into something that I actually enjoyed using.

So no, Apollo didn't bring me to Reddit but it made me use it a lot more. I suspect my case isn't unique. I've tried to continue using it with the official app over the weekend but I just can't. It's awful.
 
I suspect my case isn't unique. I've tried to continue using it with the official app over the weekend but I just can't. It's awful.

I'm not sure what this anecdotal experience is supposed to prove.

The official Reddit app is my second most used app. So I'm not sure how that's proof that the majority of Apollo users are discovering and/or using Reddit more than had Apollo not existed.

I'm not saying my personal experience speaks for everyone, but it's just as credible as your experience and it's not really proof of anything.

IMG_5120.jpg
 
I'm not sure what this anecdotal experience is supposed to prove.

The official Reddit app is my second most used app. So I'm not sure how that's proof that the majority of Apollo users are discovering and/or using Reddit more than had Apollo not existed.

I'm not saying my personal experience speaks for everyone, but it's just as credible as your experience and it's not really proof of anything.

View attachment 2227318
On a side note, is Reddit supposed to trigger such high background usage? I don't recall ever seeing that with Apollo.
 
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Can you explain to me why Narwhal was able to move forward with the business and apollo cant? I can give you a reason because apollo is a grifter.

Comment wasn’t directed at me but I’ll make an observation:

I read the Verge article that someone posted and the work that Narwhal is putting in to transition seems like a total overhaul and even the developer had some doubts initially about a transition: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...party-reddit-ios-app-will-live-on/ar-AA1ddgpB

Anyhow, it’s interesting how intense and emotional folks get over Apollo. I’m not a user of the app and in fact never heard of it until this recent event with Reddit charging for API use. But clearly lots of people see value in Apollo and will be missing it.
 
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I'm not sure what this anecdotal experience is supposed to prove.

The official Reddit app is my second most used app. So I'm not sure how that's proof that the majority of Apollo users are discovering and/or using Reddit more than had Apollo not existed.

I'm not saying my personal experience speaks for everyone, but it's just as credible as your experience and it's not really proof of anything.

View attachment 2227318
Sorry, unrelated question. That seems like a lot of Twitter time to me. Are you hitting the new message limit? I don’t use it enough to think I would ever hit the limit, but was just curious if it is actually affecting anyone that uses it fairly often.
 
That is a bunch of utter non-sense. Businesses get huge unexpected bills from AWS all the time and they don't go crying and blackmailing Amazon. "Sorry Amazon, the bill is too much and too soon, so if you don't make AWS free, I will publish all your cloud data. Oh, and I want millions too for it"

And Reddit has announced that the API will no longer be free for non-commercial use many months ago, so Apollo had plenty of time to turn Apollo in strictly a paid app. Especially since Apple and Google takes care of the in-app payments.
Businesses sign contracts for AWS. They may get huge bills, but they aren’t unexpected.
 
Comment wasn’t directed at me but I’ll make an observation:

I read the Verge article that someone posted and the work that Narwhal is putting in to transition seems like a total overhaul and even the developer had some doubts initially about a transition: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...party-reddit-ios-app-will-live-on/ar-AA1ddgpB

Anyhow, it’s interesting how intense and emotional folks get over Apollo. I’m not a user of the app and in fact never heard of it until this recent event with Reddit charging for API use. But clearly lots of people see value in Apollo and will be missing it.
It’s not some Apollo loyalty for me. It’s an aversion to anti competitive behavior.
 
I'm not sure what this anecdotal experience is supposed to prove.

The official Reddit app is my second most used app. So I'm not sure how that's proof that the majority of Apollo users are discovering and/or using Reddit more than had Apollo not existed.

I'm not saying my personal experience speaks for everyone, but it's just as credible as your experience and it's not really proof of anything.

View attachment 2227318
My take away from this screenshot. Turn off app background refresh immediately because Reddit is abusing the hell out of it and you spend an unhealthy amount of time on Twitter.
 
@ChristianSelig has apparently blocked me? I was writing him a DM here in MacRumors to wish him luck in his next projects, remembering sobre time we spent a couple of years ago fixing Apollo’s DMs, and telling him how curious I’ll ever be about the iPad interface … but when I hit “start conversation” it says the user couldn’t be found… welp 🤷🏻
 
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In case some people were wondering about the advantages of the third party Reddit client.
 
I read the Verge article that someone posted and the work that Narwhal is putting in to transition seems like a total overhaul and even the developer had some doubts initially about a transition: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...party-reddit-ios-app-will-live-on/ar-AA1ddgpB

From the article:

Harrison declined to answer if he had worked out some kind of deal with Reddit.

This reinforces the impression I got from the thread where they announced the introduction of the subscription model. While likely only Reddit and them know for sure, it's IMHO pretty clear at this point that they have a deal.

If they did not, there would be no issue in simply denying it and it makes sense for a deal to be in place looking at how the transition to the subscription model is happening.
 
Meanwhile, it's completely fine that Reddit freeloads off of all the content and moderation work that they don't compensate their users for creating and doing?
People post articles on Reddit at their own free will. Reddit pays for the infrastructure, internet usage, power, data center space, and hosts your content. As they don't ask you for a payment, they recoup their costs by displaying ads when you browse Reddit or use the Reddit App. Freeloader apps like Apollo charge customers to use the Apollo app, don't pay Reddit money for their usage of Reddit's infrastructure and then strip out the ads so that customers who use these apps don't create any revenue for Reddit to pay for their costs. Apollo makes a lot of money and pays none back to the company who hosts the content. Yes, I agree with most people, Reddit made a mistake by removing API access, but the mistake was not doing this years ago like most other companies.
 
From the article:

Harrison declined to answer if he had worked out some kind of deal with Reddit.

This reinforces the impression I got from the thread where they announced the introduction of the subscription model. While likely only Reddit and them know for sure, it's IMHO pretty clear at this point that they have a deal.

If they did not, there would be no issue in simply denying it and it makes sense for a deal to be in place looking at how the transition to the subscription model is happening.

Sure, I wondered about that. I'd tone it down from "pretty clear" to "possible cause for suspicion".

On another note and responding to a different commenter: all that said, I'm trying to say that just because Narwhal is able to move forward does not necessarily mean that because Apollo isn't, therefore means Apollo's developer is a "grifter". It's a big jump from A (i.e., Narwhal moving forward) to B (i.e., grifter).
 
You can argue that they were or were not a benefit to their business, but if they weren’t a massive part of their business, this would not even be in the news, and certainly wouldn’t have multiple threads with people taking sides arguing.
Or you can look at actual figures.

Apollo might have something like 1.5m monthly active users according to the owner. Who knows if that's true? If there's anything more apparent in this whole reddit protest is that the protestors have routinely inflated their own importance. But let's assume it's true. Reddit has something like 500m monthly active users. You do the math and the Apollo userbase does not seem like a lot of people. It does not seem "massive." Does that seem "massive" to you?
 
Sure, I wondered about that. I'd tone it down from "pretty clear" to "possible cause for suspicion".

On another note and responding to a different commenter: all that said, I'm trying to say that just because Narwhal is able to move forward does not necessarily mean that because Apollo isn't, therefore means Apollo's developer is a "grifter". It's a big jump from A (i.e., Narwhal moving forward) to B (i.e., grifter).
Selig a grifter not because of the crass begging but rather because of his overpromoting Ultra-only functionality. Features such as notifications and categories are ridiculously half-baked. This is another reason why high-priced sub (e.g., 49.99 USD) not viable for Apollo -- why on Earth would somebody pay rent, year after year, for bad updates?
 
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Sure, I wondered about that. I'd tone it down from "pretty clear" to "possible cause for suspicion".

It's pretty clear to me, but of course it's speculation one way or another. If there is a deal the dev might be under NDA so it's unlikely they would ever disclose anything and I don't see why Reddit would.

On another note and responding to a different commenter: all that said, I'm trying to say that just because Narwhal is able to move forward does not necessarily mean that because Apollo isn't, therefore means Apollo's developer is a "grifter". It's a big jump from A (i.e., Narwhal moving forward) to B (i.e., grifter).

Assuming Narwhal required a special deal to be able to move forward, it would make its "success story" useless when comparing it to what other developers are doing since said developers on top of having to deal with their own specific situations might not even have got the same conditions offered to them.
 
I have no idea if he’s a multimillionaire. Even if his business was making that kind of money it by no means means he was. It’s unlikely he was, but we won’t know. however at this time you’re just making things up rather than staying solid facts. I don’t know why.

He is an indie dev with barely any (if any) employees v’s Reddit. He’s clearly the little guy. Come on!

He made a successful app by using a freely available api. That’s not freeloading anything.

They withdrew the api without negotiation, leaving him stumped.

Who cares if was gifted anything that’s irrelevant.

This is beginning to sound a little like the green eyed monster.
It is still not something people should be turning into a "charity". This is a business not a charity where he is giving back to society here. It is fanboism. Period.

I am upset abut the API policy changes at Reddit and I enjoy third party apps more than the official so I'd like to see the policy reversed. That doesn't make the Apollo developer any less sleazy.

He built his application on top of another application/service he didn't control. That always carries risk. If you're Mad Catz developing third party Xbox and Playstation controllers by reverse engineering the official ones there is always a risk that your product or future versions may not work. Sony and Microsoft aren't thinking about you when they make their controllers.

One of my favorite companies, EVGA, was stomped on by Nvidia with the GTX 4000 series and were forced out of the GPU business. I still wouldn't donate to them because the "bigger guy" stomped on the "smaller guy". I'd donate money to real charities helping real people who need help. Like my local food bank.

It is very sad that this is where we are.

But as the old saying goes, a fool and his money are soon departed.
 
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Selig a grifter not because of the crass begging but rather because of his overpromoting Ultra-only functionality. Features such as notifications and categories are ridiculously half-baked. This is another reason why high-priced sub (e.g., 49.99 USD) not viable for Apollo -- why on Earth would somebody pay rent, year after year, for bad updates?

Ok. Noted. Not a user of Apollo so no experience with that. But, I would definitely agree that I do dislike subscription models a LOT (a HELLUVA LOT!) for MOST software.
 
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Freeloader apps like Apollo charge customers to use the Apollo app, don't pay Reddit money for their usage of Reddit's infrastructure and then strip out the ads so that customers who use these apps don't create any revenue for Reddit to pay for their costs.
They don't "strip out the ads." Reddit's API does not send ads in response to API-driven queries for that content. That was Reddit's decision to not monetize content being sent from API queries, not Christian's.

Christian expressed throughout the entire conversation he had with Reddit that he was open to an arrangement where he could pay for access -- he simply said it required more time to make the transition and the costs had to be within reason. This is all provable in the emails and conversations Christian published.

It is obvious from the beginning that Reddit did not act or negotiate in good faith, and that this was only a veiled effort to terminate third-party apps without outright admitting it. But in the process, they dragged former partners through the mud, and literally accused them of attempting blackmail simply for trying to sway Reddit's management toward a more amicable and sustainable third party API access model.

They told Christian that they had no intention to modify the API in 2023, then did so anyway. They told him that they were willing to work with him to make it possible to sustain his app; then refused to consider any proposed alternative API access pricing models or transition-to-pay time frames, nor did Reddit propose any alternatives of its own. They claimed that they wanted to achieve an arrangement that would work for all parties, but their behavior was essentially an attitude of "my way or the highway" no matter what. And Christian also demonstrated through numerous emails that they were not particularly responsive to his requests and questions while simultaneously communicating publicly that the quickly approaching cutoff for the API would not be delayed.

And before everybody jumps on the "but that's their right!!1!1!" bandwagon -- you're right. It is their right. Just because you legally can do something, doesn't mean it's morally or ethically right. In fact, it doesn't even mean that it's a good business decision. And when you're in a business like social media, where reputation and public relations matter, your communications and the way you go about it makes a difference, too. Regardless of the success or profitability of a third party developer whose app relies on this API, it is Reddit who was misleading since the moment they announced this change and it was Reddit who was unwilling to negotiate in good faith. Christian took the only practical action that he could after imploring Reddit to reconsider, or work with him to provide more time to transition his business model and arrive at a sustainable solution.

Again, it is not unreasonable that Reddit wanted to change its API access to a paid model. But if they were genuinely interested in sustaining third party access while using API revenues to help pay costs, they would not have acted the way they did. That's why so many people view Reddit as "in the wrong" here. It's because they misled third parties who relied on a status quo, accused at least one of blackmail, then pulled the rug out from under them. Reddit knew that the API changes they enacted would make third party apps unsustainable, and they proceeded with it despite warnings from just about every other interested party because that was the intention all along. It's the deception and bad faith negotiation that Reddit was responsible for that is the reason for this sentiment.
 
They don't "strip out the ads." Reddit's API does not send ads in response to API-driven queries for that content. That was Reddit's decision to not monetize content being sent from API queries, not Christian's.

Christian expressed throughout the entire conversation he had with Reddit that he was open to an arrangement where he could pay for access -- he simply said it required more time to make the transition and the costs had to be within reason. This is all provable in the emails and conversations Christian published.

It is obvious from the beginning that Reddit did not act or negotiate in good faith, and that this was only a veiled effort to terminate third-party apps without outright admitting it. But in the process, they dragged former partners through the mud, and literally accused them of attempting blackmail simply for trying to sway Reddit's management toward a more amicable and sustainable third party API access model.

They told Christian that they had no intention to modify the API in 2023, then did so anyway. They told him that they were willing to work with him to make it possible to sustain his app; then refused to consider any proposed alternative API access pricing models or transition-to-pay time frames, nor did Reddit propose any alternatives of its own. They claimed that they wanted to achieve an arrangement that would work for all parties, but their behavior was essentially an attitude of "my way or the highway" no matter what. And Christian also demonstrated through numerous emails that they were not particularly responsive to his requests and questions while simultaneously communicating publicly that the quickly approaching cutoff for the API would not be delayed.

And before everybody jumps on the "but that's their right!!1!1!" bandwagon -- you're right. It is their right. Just because you legally can do something, doesn't mean it's morally or ethically right. In fact, it doesn't even mean that it's a good business decision. And when you're in a business like social media, where reputation and public relations matter, your communications and the way you go about it makes a difference, too. Regardless of the success or profitability of a third party developer whose app relies on this API, it is Reddit who was misleading since the moment they announced this change and it was Reddit who was unwilling to negotiate in good faith. Christian took the only practical action that he could after imploring Reddit to reconsider, or work with him to provide more time to transition his business model and arrive at a sustainable solution.

Again, it is not unreasonable that Reddit wanted to change its API access to a paid model. But if they were genuinely interested in sustaining third party access while using API revenues to help pay costs, they would not have acted the way they did. That's why so many people view Reddit as "in the wrong" here. It's because they misled third parties who relied on a status quo, accused at least one of blackmail, then pulled the rug out from under them. Reddit knew that the API changes they enacted would make third party apps unsustainable, and they proceeded with it despite warnings from just about every other interested party because that was the intention all along. It's the deception and bad faith negotiation that Reddit was responsible for that is the reason for this sentiment.

Apollo is out of business now. It’s a dead horse, time to stop beating it. Maybe you can GFM him another $5,000 display?
 
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