Porsche challenges C-charge rise

[SpookTheHamster]

I'm surprised that nobody here has brought up how badly this affects families.

A large family is going to need a large car to get around, something like a Ford Galaxy MPV. These quite often emit as much CO2 as a 4x4 or sports car, but they're necessary. The extortion charge would make it cheaper for a family to run two cars under the 224g limit, which creates more congestion AND more pollution.

The two main polluting vehicles in London are everywhere, huge, usually seen empty, often driven dangerously and extremely inefficient. We know what we need to cut down on: Buses and taxis.

A serious study needs to be carried out into bus usage, because running an empty bus every 10 minutes during off-peak times is a huge waste.

 

[geese]

I'm surprised that nobody here has brought up how badly this affects families.

A large family is going to need a large car to get around, something like a Ford Galaxy MPV. These quite often emit as much CO2 as a 4x4 or sports car, but they're necessary. The extortion charge would make it cheaper for a family to run two cars under the 224g limit, which creates more congestion AND more pollution.

The two main polluting vehicles in London are everywhere, huge, usually seen empty, often driven dangerously and extremely inefficient. We know what we need to cut down on: Buses and taxis.

A serious study needs to be carried out into bus usage, because running an empty bus every 10 minutes during off-peak times is a huge waste.

Dont know about your neck of the woods, but in south London, buses are never empty.

You need frequent, and good quality public transport as an incentive to get people away from cars. Bus use has rises in London in the past 6 years because, well, its much better it used to be. Having frequent services off-peak is important, and I'd argue that they are not running empty.

A better way forward would be to upgrade the engines of buses so they run on cleaner fuel. In due course this will happen, assuming the political will is there.

As fot the congestion charge, i agree with it on principle, but I think it should be a scaled charge, rather then a £17 jump.

 

[jimN]

I'm surprised that nobody here has brought up how badly this affects families.

I did, evidently you aren't reading the other posts. Large families living inside the congestion zone can clearly afford this. Yes, there's council housing within the zone but these families are more likely to have children that our schooled locally and travel on public transport. In my experience the majority of people within the zone have no/few children and IF they really need to use a car could cope with a small one. The cost of a house/flat for a large family in and around the CC zone is prohibitive to any but those who could afford this higher charge.

Back on the bendy buses. Yes, they sometimes have inconsiderate drivers but there are plenty of idiot cyclists out there and they seem to be on the increase to the extent that people seem to be gunning for us in the media. I don't want to be vilified on my bike because some other chooses to cycle stupidly. It's a safe rule that if an accident is more likely to kill you than the other party then you need to be careful.

 

[gnasher729]

If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford £25 a day.

A ten second google search comes up with two Porsche 944 for sale under £5,000. I think that proves your argument wrong.

Apart from that, £25 a day = £9,000 a year = £90,000 or more over the lifetime of a car. But maybe Porsche shouldn't try to argue about this, but instead hire some private investigators to find out about tax payers' money flowing from Ken's cronies to Ken's cronies' friends; quite possible that they could get things changed that way

 

[Queso]

Apart from that, £25 a day = £9,000 a year = £90,000 or more over the lifetime of a car.

The congestion charge isn't 7 days a week, so the figure is more like £6500. Residents living within the zone also get a 90% discount, so £650 is the actual amount they pay.

 

[edesignuk]

Residents living within the zone also get a 90% discount, so £650 is the actual amount they pay.

I thought I read somewhere that residents won't get any discount with the new rules?*


*could be totally wrong!

 

[skunk]

Residents living within the zone also get a 90% discount, so £650 is the actual amount they pay.

Actually, they won't get a discount from the £25 charge, as The Moderator says.

 

[jimN]

The point people seem to be missing is that you don't NEED to drive into the congestion zone on a daily basis and that someone who can afford to RUN a porsche for their daily usage, regardless of the theoretical purchase cost of a second hand one, can afford to pay more for the congestion charge. The car is expensive to insure and guzzles fuel, not the kind of car a poor person buys for daily use. The proposed changes to the congestion effectively amount to a luxury tax and I have no problem with that because the trickle down from these payments will help all Londoners.

 

[Queso]

I thought I read somewhere that residents won't get any discount with the new rules?*

Actually, they won't get a discount from the £25 charge, as The Moderator says.

Thank you both for the correction

 

[skunk]

In addition, you may be interested to hear just how much of the income from the C-Charge is available to improve life for those not driving Richmond Chelsea tractors: out of a total cumulative income of £930 million over the last four years, the net gain after operating expenses has been a total of £14 million. Quite apart from any question of environmental benefit, this kind of ludicrous mismanagement brings the whole scheme into disrepute.

 

[vixapphire]

I certainly agree!

Markleshark - you sound like your avatar!

I am quite happy for the charge to go ahead, I rekons people that drive these things should be able to afford a few extra quid.

people with your attitude shouldn't expect any sympathy, much less assistance, when time comes for your oxen to be gored.

 

[vixapphire]

Well done for respecting someone else's opinion.


Personally, I think the congestion charge is a criminal offense. I'm not old enough to do so yet, but don't we pay road tax etc... so we can use the roads?

get a horse, use the roads; no automobiles need apply. the government is way out of hand with its freedom-constriction agenda. car-owners are the new smokers.

 

[vixapphire]

If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford £25 a day.

does that include the overpriced parking garages too, or is that another 30 pounds charge on top of the fee?

 

[nplima]

out of a total cumulative income of £930 million over the last four years, the net gain after operating expenses has been a total of £14 million.

That is interesting. Got a source?

According to Wikipedia, the congestion charge started working in 2003. so these 4 years would be most of the time the scheme has been in place.
Is this £14M balance the result of sales - (setup cost + running costs), or is it sales - running costs?
thanks

 

[jimN]

does that include the overpriced parking garages too, or is that another 30 pounds charge on top of the fee?

The car parks aren't government run so why should their fees be included. You might decide that this is worthwhile on a one off basis, but would be cheaper to park outside the zone and get public transport into London. Plus it is far easier to get around in this fashion once you are in there.

 

[skunk]

That is interesting. Got a source?

According to Wikipedia, the congestion charge started working in 2003. so these 4 years would be most of the time the scheme has been in place.
Is this £14M balance the result of sales - (setup cost + running costs), or is it sales - running costs?
thanks

It is indeed the entire time the scheme has been in place.

Few people paying their £8 a day realise that practically none of this cash is serving any good purpose. I have just updated the cummulative cash flow that I did for ConservativeHome to mark the fourth anniversary of the Congestion Charge. Previously I had used estimates for 2006/7. Now I can use TfL’s actual numbers. Income: £930 million. Cumulative surplus after over 4 years of operation: £14 million.​

http://philtaylor.org.uk/?p=726

 

[RedTomato]

I live in north London and use the buses almost every day, and I've never seen an empty bus. (at least while they are on duty)

I often can't get on and have to wait for the next bus because the bus is full up, which is a pain when you have a 3 year old daughter with you.

I also often cycle, and with the bendy buses, you just have to learn how to share a road with them. Don't ride along the side of a moving bendy bus, and especially not around a corner.

Same with lorries and coaches, never ride side by side with them, especially with articulated lorries. Bendy buses are just giant artic lorries, treat them with the same respect.

There aren't many bendy buses in north london, but when I've used them, it's been nice to be able to get on and off so easily, especially with a big pram.

Most buses only take one pram, people often squash two or more prams on, but the driver can legally refuse to carry more than one pram. Getting home with a baby in an big pram (that's difficult to fold) can be a nightmare, especially at nursery closing times.

The bendy buses take a far higher number of prams, I don't know the limits, but at a guess you could fit in 10 or so on an half full bendy bus.

Ken has his faults, but he has really really improved london transport, not just in frequency of service, but also in access.

I work with wheelchair users, who have said that 10 years ago, they felt like exiles in London as none of the transport was accessible to them, they weren't allowed on the tube etc.

One bloke (wheelchair user) told me 10 years ago, he tried to get on the tube, and he was shouted at and told to go away by the staff. Last month, for the first time in 10 years, he tried to get on the tube again, and saw some staff approaching him. 'Oh ****' he's thinking. But what they said to him was 'Can we help? Do you want to know where the lift is or do you want a hand going down the escalator? '

He said that was the first time in his life he felt like a true Londoner. Ahhh sweet. And thanks to Ken.

 

[thecritix]

If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford £25 a day.

what an ignorrant statement to make.

besides, people seem to be forgetting its not just porsches that are being affected here...

this is a pathetic attempt at cutting emissions, they should be spending their time developing systems like green flow on as many roads as possible where you can drive through a highstreet at 30mph smoothly, without accelerating and braking, wasting energy...

Just seems ridiculous that they are claiming this to be cutting emissions, when expanding Heathrow is good for London...

How many porsches could run for a year on the emissions of transatlantic flight?

Sickening.

 

[edesignuk]

How many porsches could run for a year on the emissions of transatlantic flight?

I don't see how that is even slightly relevant.

Other than a plane how else are you supposed to get around the world in any reasonable time frame?

Same can't be said for getting around London, there are many options.

 

[gnasher729]

The congestion charge isn't 7 days a week, so the figure is more like £6500. Residents living within the zone also get a 90% discount, so £650 is the actual amount they pay.

Residents do _not_ get any discount on the £25 charge. That is the killer combination that I assume will cause lawsuits: If you are a resident, then obviously you cannot avoid driving through the congestion charge zone, _and_ you have to pay £25 a day. And knowing Ken, if he reads your post then he will increase the charge to £50 on Saturday and Sunday for residents.

(What I really expect to happen is that people will buy a second car, park it somewhere outside, and swap license plates )

 

[jimN]

Residents do _not_ get any discount on the £25 charge. That is the killer combination that I assume will cause lawsuits: If you are a resident, then obviously you cannot avoid driving through the congestion charge zone, _and_ you have to pay £25 a day. And knowing Ken, if he reads your post then he will increase the charge to £50 on Saturday and Sunday for residents.

If you live within the zone AND drive one of these cars you can definitely afford the charge.

 

[AoWolf]

A ten second google search comes up with two Porsche 944 for sale under £5,000. I think that proves your argument wrong.

A 944's 2.5L may not even pollute enough. Its all Politics. Hurting the economy over disputed science is a great thing...

 

[iGav]

Porsche vs. Livingstone: round 2

Go Porsche.

 

[hulugu]

Thats funny, because Cayenne's aren't that bad off road, and they're pretty fun in the sand with the right tires and such. Nothing like 500hp and some dunes.

I wonder what percentage of Cayennes has ever been off-road... maybe 0.5%? (snow doesn't count). It's 100% percent show off (in the case of the white Tech Art pictured, 140% show off). Hence the tax

I'd say less than .5% even. I don't expect to see one anywhere near dunes, rocks, or even a muddy trail. Maybe snow, but not in any significant amount. I may be wrong, but I rarely see anything beyond the same vehicles. For example, while I have watched Hummers crawl up rock, their brethren the H2 and H3 never get beyond the trailhead.

 

[Schtumple]

Good, I hate show offs, the people who can

A. afford a porsche
B. afford to insure that porsche
C. afford the fuel for that porsche
D. afford to live in london

can afford this charge, simple.