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pigwin32 said:
Generally you will find that the R&D costs bear little or no relation to the price you will pay for the product. The price will be set not on how much the product cost to make but on how much the marketing weenies at Apple think they can sell it for. Keep in mind Apple's objective here, it isn't to make a wonderful product and sell it as cheaply as possible to benefit mankind, Apple's objective is to make money and to do that they will be trying to evaluate the best price to maximise profit. I imagine the G5 PB will debut at a premium to the current range due to expected demand, a good reason to grab one of the refresh machines which are as affordable as they are ever likely to be.

Well, to be fair, this isn't quite true. R&D costs bear a significant influence on the final cost of a product. It is this cost that sets the minimum cost of the product. It is this that tells Apple how much they have to sell the product for in order to break even. From there, they work to figure out how much more they can charge to make a profit.
 
oingoboingo said:
The display on my Rev B 12" PowerBook is also quite sharp. I'd like it to be a little brighter though...under full office lighting, even running on AC power it sometimes seems slightly dim to me.

I've found that my 12" screen seems to need time to warm up. When I first open up my screen, especially when it's cold out, the screen is a bit dim. However, within a few minutes, it brightens up considerably.
 
pigwin32 said:
Yeah, I think the new PB's are ok, for my purposes they have everything I want except for the G5 and a current screen and I'm guessing the G5 PB's aren't too far off so I'm willing to wait.

Regarding a 64-bit Mac OSX, I think it will be a good long while before we see a *fully* 64-bit os, but we will see Apple tuning the os and apps to take advantage of the G5 processor. I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think an app has to be fully 64-bit in order to run faster on the G5 v. the G4 (GHz being equal).

More RAM is generally considered useful regardless but there's no reason a 2GB G5 PB couldn't take advantage of a 64-bit os. That's kind of like saying you can't take advantage of a 32-bit os if you've only got 500MB.

First, how are you defining 'fully 64-bit os'? It cannot be denied that OS X is partially there, now, as the kernel can address 64-bit memory space. However, it's not really completely there, as it still limits apps to 32-bit memory space (i.e. 4 GB max memory space per app). The addition of 64-bit memory space for apps should have essentially no effect on the speed of apps that need less than 4 GB of memory, or on apps running on system that has less than 4 GB of memory installed (i.e. a PowerBook with the current memory limits).

Also, the proper analogy would be to say that you can't take advantage of a 32-bit enabled (i.e. 32-bit memory space) OS if you only have 64KB of RAM (16-bits worth of memory).

As has already been pointed out, most of the benefits that the PowerBook will see from the G5 has nothing to do with 64-bit-ness, but rather to do with different architecture elements, such as the memory band-width.
 
Mr. MacPhisto said:
Of course, that would be the problem if too many people moved over - the IT industry would take a serious hit. It it to their benefit not to have computers work well.

This is also the problem with police and advocacy groups, and to a lesser degree, doctors. The good ones will be trying to put themselves out of business. Some of them will just be trying to make money off of a bad situation, and sometimes making sure that it keeps going.
 
Snowy_River said:
Well, to be fair, this isn't quite true. R&D costs bear a significant influence on the final cost of a product. It is this cost that sets the minimum cost of the product. It is this that tells Apple how much they have to sell the product for in order to break even. From there, they work to figure out how much more they can charge to make a profit.
Product retail price is set based on a range of factors. A good example is an inkjet printer where the printer itself can be sold at below cost with the manufacturer expecting to make money on the consumables, e.g. coated paper and ink cartridges. As you say, R&D *costs* influence the final *cost* of the product but not necessarily the price. If a manufacturer is trying to build market share then an initial release may be sold cheaply to win new customers. Initial versions might be costly to produce and yet the manufacturer will want to release the product to the market at a price competitive with existing products. The manufacturer will hope to eventually recoup the costs of developing the product but that may be a long term goal rather than something built into the retail price from day one.

My point is there are a lot more factors influencing the retail price of a product than the cost of production.
 
Just suppose that Apple is waiting for VirtualPC for G5 to be developed before it is able to release a G5 Powerbook? Of course with thorough testing then maybe they'll decide they need to modify WINE to work on the G5 even better and finally come out with a Powerbook G5. The last thing Apple wants to see is people buying an expensive notebook only to find out the Windows emulator they are most likely to buy doesn't work. They could afford it with the PowerMac G5 since it wasn't as likely to be purchased as the Powerbook. Now then this is only a theory, but it has some basis in the truth that Apple faces. The moment Apple can't move forward, they have to take the baby steps that will allow it to move forward in the future. Keep the compatibility there, while allowing people to move forward. Granted we don't have Mac OS 9 booting anymore, but then again, the baby steps towards a more unified notebook computer are being taken. So have patience. Apple will take you where you never imagined!
 
gopher said:
Just suppose that Apple is waiting for VirtualPC for G5 to be developed before it is able to release a G5 Powerbook? Of course with thorough testing then maybe they'll decide they need to modify WINE to work on the G5 even better and finally come out with a Powerbook G5. The last thing Apple wants to see is people buying an expensive notebook only to find out the Windows emulator they are most likely to buy doesn't work.

Uhm, they obviously never cared for VPC or Bochs when they released the G5 towers, so I doubt they care anymore for the PowerBook. Apple wants developers to release Mac-ports of their apps and users to use them, not emulators.
 
eSnow said:
Uhm, they obviously never cared for VPC or Bochs when they released the G5 towers, so I doubt they care anymore for the PowerBook. Apple wants developers to release Mac-ports of their apps and users to use them, not emulators.

Despite the fact that the Powerbooks sell very well?

(And if they cared for VPC, then they would never have released the G5s. I'd take G5s over VPC any day)
 
I dont think there is anyway Apple will hold up hardware to wait for Microsoft. MS are obviously having problems with the G5, or they are optomising the code for it which would be appreciated.
 
"denial" is possible

Snowy_River said:
First, how are you defining 'fully 64-bit os'? It cannot be denied that OS X is partially there, now, as the kernel can address 64-bit memory space.

Actually, the OS X kernel doesn't need to use more than 32-bit addressing. Windows and Linux have supported more than 4 GiB of RAM with 32-bit kernels on 32-bit hardware for a long time.

Note that the memory addressing and allocation parts of an operating system really deal with memory pages - not memory bytes. It numbers the pages - so that a 32-bit page count is far larger than 4 GiB.

When a process requests virtual memory, the OS enters one or more physical pages (by page number) into a table that describes the "mapping" between the virtual address space and physical memory. This does not require 64-bit addressing.

The operating system also has a "page table".

So, the assumption that your kernel must have 64-bit capabilities to manage more than 4 GiB of RAM is wrong - pure 32-bit kernels have been doing that for many years. And before that, 16-bit kernels were managing more than 64KiB of RAM - sometimes many MiB with a 16-bit kernel.

Also note that OS X really only supports 33-bits of memory space (or 34-bits, if the rumoured 16GiB systems appear). Squeezing an extra bit or two of physical addressing into a 32-bit system is pretty easy compared to true 64-bit addressing.

And finally, OS X supported 8 GiB with a point update to 10.2, right? It would be unlikely that a rewrite of the kernel to use true 64-bit addressing would (or even could) be a minor point update.
 
Powerbooks vs Wintel Laptops

As a user of both a PB G4 (1GHz, SD) and a Sony Vaio (1.5Ghz Centrino) I have to say that the Powerbook is still where it's at (IMHO) when you consider who is doing the innovation (Apple) and as for a comparison of either manufacturers comparible latest offerings the Apple 15" AlBook has a lot better Spec on the Video side (the Vaio Z1 Wamp3 still only comes with 16 MB VRAM), the Firewire has no power on the Vaio, there is no backlit keyboard option and last but certainly not least the user experience on Panther, Safari, iSync is worlds apart from Win XP Pro, IE, Outlook (It feels as if Microsloth has finally caught up with MacOS Classic, maybe - but there is still that little DOS problem). If it wasn't for CAD software I have to use at work which no longer is available for MacOS we would be an Apple using company hands down. Windows maintenance and setup is still a pain in the b*ttookas ... failures, crashes, virii, you name it. And finally: The dollar premium on Apples Professional machines is simply a myth in the US. (Don't compare to D*ll, compare to real computers for once, please). :)
 
A surreal conversation

toes said:
Windows maintenance and setup is still a pain in the b*ttookas ... failures, crashes, virii, you name it.

I had a surreal conversation with my neighbor this week. My company has bought a bunch of new machines, unfortunately not Macs but nonetheless we're selling off a bunch of our old machines and I offered my neighbor one. So he got a nice 1.8 AMD w/ CD Burner etc. for 150.00. Of course, he got a modem because I asked our tech to do me a favor and install one—we just happend to have a few older cards lying around.
So I give him the machine and he starts asking me about all the ports in the back, so I sit and point out what each one does, and when I get to the modem port he says, I don't need that. The conversation thus follows:
You don't have broadband, so you'll need the modem to dial-up.
I don't want to connect to the internet.
Why not? (I'm incredulous at this point, the guy is a young grad-student)
All the stuff out there, hackers, viruses...I've put my laptop on the internet and now it's really slow and there's a bunch of junk on it, he says.
Oh, well you can fix that, you can get a firewall, run Adaware or a similar program, and of course Norton AV....

And then it hit me, my explanation of the things above were tasks he didn't want to do. He's a grad-student, a new father, and he just bought a new house, he doesn't have time to administer his computer, protect it from all the various entities out there. It's just easier not to use the machine on the internet for him. At all.
A Mac is vulnerable, but better and yet when I asked him if he wanted to buy my iMac instead, he said no, we're not Mac people. :eek:
So I start babbling, but but but...

And then I gave him his machine and ran like hell. The moral of the story: Windows is a freakin' disaster.
 
I must confess to a terrible weakness.

First of all, let me introduce myself since this is my first post. Truth be told, I've lurked on the mainsite for almost 18 months checking back almost daily, but I've never bothered to register for the forums. Mea culpa. I've been using various forms of exotic hardware for the first half of the last decade (1994-1999) and then I eventually settled on a series of x86 machines running NT 4.0, 2000 and XP in succession. In January 2003 I decided I'd had enough and, despite some reservations, I decided to get myself a dual processor 1GHz G4 to run my thesis simulations. I haven't looked back since, and I am now something of a Mac Evangelist - and apparently, a pretty effective one too, since several people whom originally playfully derided me (including my best friend and my girlfriend) have now "Switched" too, and are proceeding to further the epidemic.

After graduating in June last year, I was given a 12" PowerBook Rev.A @ 867MHz (with 1x SuperDrive), currently maxed out with 640 MBytes of RAM.

In November last year I left my native Italy for a job in China. Needless to say, I had to leave my beloved G4 behind, and since then my PowerBook has become my only machine. Since early March, when my company finally approved the purchase of a PowerMac G5, I've been holding out of the agonisingly late Rev. B machines, figuring that there is no point buying anything but the "latest and greatest" to last me the whole length of my contract here (approximately two more years). In the meantime, I kitted my PowerBook, lovingly known as Sparky because of the somewhat alarming tingling feeling I get when I touch the case while charging the battery (!), with an extra half gigabyte of RAM, bringing it to the current total of 640 MBytes. When Panther was released, I almost instantly enabled FileVault, because truth be told, intellectual property protection here in China is a bit haphazard (to say the least). Mostly I run the usual "productivity" applications, such as Microsoft Word, large Excell spreasheets, and Keynote. I also am an avid email user, and currently my Mail boxes total up to about 2 GBytes. Truth be told, my system is strained beyond beleif.

I only really noticed this fact when this weekend my girlfriend came to visit me with her new iBook, a 1GHz machine with "only" 512MBytes of RAM. Her machine zips through tasks that are glacial and unresponsive on my machine. Mounting the same .dmg took less than a third of the time on her machine as it did on mine (11 seconds vs. 37 seconds). She doesn't have FileVault running, but I need it and my productivity suffers because of all the slow-down.

So even though the G5 revisions are supposedly only a month away, and even though I am somewhat concerned that G5 PowerBooks may be within the 1-year event horizon, I renegotiated with the company and ordered myself a 15" 1.5GHz G4 PowerBook with 1GByte of RAM and a 5400RPM hard-drive. The rationale is twofold: on the one hand, it certainly represents a great increase in performance compared to my current PowerBook, and on the other hand, I figured I can't pack a G5 tower into my backpack and take it with me when the summer holidays finally arrive. It will, at the very least, offer "perfectly decent" performance for the next 12 months or so - though I am equally aware that I'll experience that awful sinking feeling if the G5 PowerBooks are released before June 2005. I guess you could say I took a gamble with my technolust. I'm a professional power user, but my forays into digital video and music are limited to iMovie and GarageBand, respectively, at least for the time being. Though of course it is a matter of deep embarassment if/when Keynote has to churn away for half a minute just to bring up a presentation, and it will be equally embarassing if my new G4 PowerBook turns out to be equally "future un-proof".

So I suppose that now I've given in to temptation, I have a vested interest in hoping the G5 PowerBooks are not released within a year, if only for petty psychological reasons.

I'd also like to chirp in on a few technical issues. Firstly, the comparison betwen Xserves and PowerBooks is not worth the effort. The system architecture, manufacturing process, and intended objectives are totally different. As noted, the case volumes are wildly divergent (somebody calculated the Xserve has about 5 times the internal volume of the 17" PowerBook, and that sounds about right), plus the fact that the closer density of notebook system components (hard drive, battery, and optical drive all nearby) present formidable problems that quite simply have no equal in the 1U server market. Saying it should be possible to engineer a G5 PowerBook simply because there exists a dual G5 Xserve is tantramount to stating that one should be able to easily transport a six-seat sofa in Ferrari sportscar: it simply violates all notions of common sense and geometry. Not so much because of any single constraint, but because of all the constraints operating simulataneously. Equally I do not consider a dual-G4 PowerBook to be realistic.

Secondly, I think most of the posters grossly overestimate the performance hike they could expect from a 1.6 GHz G5 as opposed to a 1.5 GHz G4. As long as most software remains 32-bit, the performance boost would be negligable. Also, keep in mind that the G5 is actually a little slower when utilising 64-bit arithmetic than it is when operating in 32-bit mode (this is a problem it has in common with its bastard cousin, AMD's Opteron/Athlon64). So much so that Apple is currently touting the breaking of the (somewhat fictitious) "4 GByte barrier" and not the arrival of 64-bit computing per se. (N.B. I consider the 4 GByte barrier to be fictitious because it only really applies on a per-process basis.) Of course, short of finding a new higher-density RAM module format, no PowerBook G5 for the foreseeable future will be able to stow away 4 GBytes, much less 8 GBytes of RAM, making the issue rather moot. Furthermore, much of the increased performance one sees when using a G5 is actually due to the increased FSB bandwidth when compared to earlier G4 systems: since Apple would undoubtedly have to reduce the frequency of the HyperTransport so as to avoid a repeat performance of the FireBook fiasco, the benefits of this improvement would also be mitigated. Granted, the FSB in current PowerBook offerings is less than stellar, and it could be - nay, should be improved - one does not necessarily require a G5 to do so.

Rather than hope that the next iteration of OS X is fully 64-bit, I'd much rather hope that they maintain the 32-bit/64-bit hybrid nature but rather begin compiling the performance-sensitive components (such as the XNU kernel, Aqua interface and QuartzExtreme render-engine) with a compiler that "sucks less" than GNU's much over-hyped GCC 3.3 series compiler. Ideally, OS X 10.4 would be a 32-bit/64-bit hybrid compiled with IBM's excellent and highly optimised PowerPC compiler, XCC. That alone would greatly enhance the end user's experience and the responsiveness of the system when under severe loads. The best thing that can be said of GCC is that it adept at compiling portable code, and is itself portable. Portability entails a certain degree of inefficiency, and since Apple is highly unlikely to produce x86 offerings anyway, they really should consider undertaking this basically free performance upgrade for all their users.

So at the end of the day I am technically rather ambivalent about the prospect of a G5 PowerBook anytime soon, and on a psychological level I must admit to be actively hostile to the idea. While I do recognise there are people out there who could really use the power offered by a G5 PowerBook, I honestly think that these potential users are overestimating the performance boost they'd get from such an upgrade.

Just my two cents' worth. Albeit somewhat verbose. Conisdering I wrote a 500-word post at the end of a 12-page thread, I'm rather curious to see if anybody will actually read it. Much less respond.
 
Firstly, qubex, let me be among the ones to welcome you. It's always nice to have well-spoken people about, especially when they seem to have some good thought behind their posts. I'm sure that we'll butt heads over something eventually, but I thought I'd at least be pleasant to you at first. :D

That being said, I'm going to reply to you the way I normally do, by dissecting and taking points out to highlight them.

[It will, at the very least, offer "perfectly decent" performance for the next 12 months or so - though I am equally aware that I'll experience that awful sinking feeling if the G5 PowerBooks are released before June 2005.

Why?

Does the release of a new machine make your purchase any slower in a real sense, or is it just the admitted technolust that you spoke of? My guess is that the PowerBook is at least adequate for your needs, and that without a jump to a new processor, that the PowerBooks will not be significantly faster in the near future. If you'd followed both the 970/970fx and the competition from FreeScale (nee Motorola), then you'd know that even the 90nm version of the newer processor is running at a pretty high heat compared to the G4. The chip alone is at 25-30w at 2.0ghz, and it's still hotter than an equally clocked G4 when you ramp it down, without providing significant performance gains, all while drawing far more power off the battery. In addition, there are other significant hits that pull on the limited supply - FSB and RAM being two of them, and the need for faster drives being another.

A G5 PowerBook will be a heat and battery monster, one that will be laughed out of the professional purchasing arena because current generation Centrinos are already higher clocked and proven performers, while also allowing a battery life that really does reach up to 6 hours. This is mostly because the chip is designed to be a small form factor processor and scale far, far down when not in use. It's interesting to note that the two are roughly comparable at full operation, right around the 30w mark, but that the Centrino still has better power management and can thus be more conservation-minded when it needs to be.

I'd also like to chirp in on a few technical issues. Firstly, the comparison betwen Xserves and PowerBooks is not worth the effort. The system architecture, manufacturing process, and intended objectives are totally different. As noted, the case volumes are wildly divergent (somebody calculated the Xserve has about 5 times the internal volume of the 17" PowerBook, and that sounds about right), plus the fact that the closer density of notebook system components (hard drive, battery, and optical drive all nearby) present formidable problems that quite simply have no equal in the 1U server market. Saying it should be possible to engineer a G5 PowerBook simply because there exists a dual G5 Xserve is tantramount to stating that one should be able to easily transport a six-seat sofa in Ferrari sportscar: it simply violates all notions of common sense and geometry. Not so much because of any single constraint, but because of all the constraints operating simulataneously.

Amen and thank you, good sir. You put it better than I did, though I fear that it's too little and too late, even if those who cry out for the G% PowerBook were open to listening to dissent.

Equally I do not consider a dual-G4 PowerBook to be realistic.

I'm curious why not, in this case. Two MPC7447A chips output less heat at peak than either one Centrino or one G5 (11w each, for a total of 22w) and don't require the 400mhz or 800+mhz FSB of the other systems. In addition, there's no need for PC3200 RAM to keep the pipe fed, nor an absolute requirement for 7200RPM laptop drives to feed the bus. The heat budget is far more reasonable.

Secondly, I think most of the posters grossly overestimate the performance hike they could expect from a 1.6 GHz G5 as opposed to a 1.5 GHz G4. As long as most software remains 32-bit, the performance boost would be negligable.

This is borne out in the FinalCut Pro benchmarks that have been thrown around this board to demonstrate that exact point. Low-clocked G5s are performing roughly on a clock-for-clock parity with the G4 on anything that doesn't have explicit ties to their AGP 8x graphics bus, the memory bandwidth, or 64-bit integers and math. As such, most consumer tasks won't see much lift, if any at all.

Of course, short of finding a new higher-density RAM module format, no PowerBook G5 for the foreseeable future will be able to stow away 4 GBytes, much less 8 GBytes of RAM, making the issue rather moot.

This doesn't seem to matter to them. Someone on the iMac thread is hoping for four RAM slots, and it didn't seem to phase anyone on this thread when I pointed out that 64-bit addressing does nothing at the moment if you don't have RAM over 4GB to be assigned.

Granted, the FSB in current PowerBook offerings is less than stellar, and it could be - nay, should be improved - one does not necessarily require a G5 to do so.

The FreeScale e600 G4-successor chip is a 2.0ghz dual-core design with an on-die DDR memory controller, 400mhz FSB, higher L2 cache, and (rumored) double-precision 128-bit AltiVec units. It puts out 22 watts and has at least two logical cores in the space of one processor.

I'd much rather see that in a PowerBook than a crippled G5.

Rather than hope that the next iteration of OS X is fully 64-bit, I'd much rather hope that they maintain the 32-bit/64-bit hybrid nature but rather begin compiling the performance-sensitive components (such as the XNU kernel, Aqua interface and QuartzExtreme render-engine) with a compiler that "sucks less" than GNU's much over-hyped GCC 3.3 series compiler. Ideally, OS X 10.4 would be a 32-bit/64-bit hybrid compiled with IBM's excellent and highly optimised PowerPC compiler, XCC. That alone would greatly enhance the end user's experience and the responsiveness of the system when under severe loads.

I'm fully in agreement on this, as well. Reports have been coming in about the increases in performance for using the IBM Fortran and C compilers, and there are some that are claiming anything between 40 and 200% performance increase from the additional efficiency in usage of the processors. If you could gain 40% real-world performance from merely switching compilers, well... It seems like a no-brainer to me. Apple needs to shift over to XCC and make it available to their developers as a part of the tools. It would make a decent use for that warchest they're sitting on, if they're not buying Macromedia, Adobe, or Sun anytime soon.
 
say...anyone else notice this?

Did a google search for 'powerbook G5'. Check out what was in the sponsored links:

Power Book G5 deals
www.store.apple.com******Apple Store has Power Book G5 with**big discounts on memory

:eek:

Probably an error, but it was interesting to see. :p
 

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thatwendigo said:
Firstly, qubex, let me be among the ones to welcome you. It's always nice to have well-spoken people about, especially when they seem to have some good thought behind their posts. /.../

That being said, I'm going to reply to you the way I normally do, by dissecting and taking points out to highlight them.
Thank you very much for the welcome! Feel free to dissect my argument at will!
thatwendigo said:
Does the release of a new machine make your purchase any slower in a real sense, or is it just the admitted technolust that you spoke of? My guess is that the PowerBook is at least adequate for your needs, and that without a jump to a new processor, that the PowerBooks will not be significantly faster in the near future.
The release of a new machine does not, of course, affect the speed of my PowerBook by one iota. It does however have two psychological effects: firstly, it raises the bar on what is available "out there" - it seems to me that even if one possesses a machine that can complete a given task in the entirely adequate time of 1 second, once we encounter a machine that can perform the same task in half the time (0.5 second), 1 second will forever thereafter feel "slow". This is at least the feeling I get. Secondly, though admittedly this is more a hallmark of the Windows world and its Microsoft infestation, once a faster system becomes available it seems as if developers take it as the cue to start writing even crapper and more inefficient software. And we all know how frustrating it can be to depend upon running even one "resource hog" on a daily basis, with the global system slowdowns, disk churning, generalised unresponsiveness and slow screen redraws. Not to point fingers, but Excel v.X and Mail.app (with its huge collection of large .mbox files) are already prone to inflicting this kinid of punishment on me.
thatwendigo said:
If you'd followed both the 970/970fx and the competition from FreeScale (nee Motorola), then you'd know that even the 90nm version of the newer processor is running at a pretty high heat compared to the G4. The chip alone is at 25-30w at 2.0ghz, and it's still hotter than an equally clocked G4 when you ramp it down, without providing significant performance gains, all while drawing far more power off the battery. In addition, there are other significant hits that pull on the limited supply - FSB and RAM being two of them, and the need for faster drives being another.

A G5 PowerBook will be a heat and battery monster, one that will be laughed out of the professional purchasing arena because current generation Centrinos are already higher clocked and proven performers, while also allowing a battery life that really does reach up to 6 hours. This is mostly because the chip is designed to be a small form factor processor and scale far, far down when not in use. It's interesting to note that the two are roughly comparable at full operation, right around the 30w mark, but that the Centrino still has better power management and can thus be more conservation-minded when it needs to be.
I consider the G4 to be Apple's best portable processor so far - and similarly I consider the G5 to be an ill-advised choice for all the reasons you have mentioned, and more besides. As for the FreeScale, I am not well acquainted with it. I really don't think the PPC970 (or rather, PPC970fx) will make it into a laptop in their current forms. It is inevitable that at some point in the future Apple will put a 64-bit processor into a PowerBook, but I do not see that being a processor that is currently available on the market now. Of course, when that happens, my new shiny PowerBook will truly become obsolete, but that's the way of such things. For my personal mental well-being, I hope this comes after my next planned upgrade cycle. ;)
thatwendigo said:
Two MPC7447A chips output less heat at peak than either one Centrino or one G5 (11w each, for a total of 22w) and don't require the 400mhz or 800+mhz FSB of the other systems. In addition, there's no need for PC3200 RAM to keep the pipe fed, nor an absolute requirement for 7200RPM laptop drives to feed the bus. The heat budget is far more reasonable.
There are two reasons for this. The first is that, as you mention, by inserting to G4s within a single laptop the FSB issue is not addressed. Indeed it is excaberated since the underperforming bus of current PowerBooks will then be "underfeeding" both processors. Secondly, have you ever seen a PowerBook motherboard? They are already crammed solid. It seems to me that adding another G4 will lead to a very serious real-estate crisis, and while the dissipation increase may appear modest in absolute terms (a mere 11W), in relative terms it represents a doubling of the thermal load to be vented. That sounds a little dicy. Of course there are also the related battery-life issues etc., but those matters are hardly unsurmountable.
thatwendigo said:
This is borne out in the FinalCut Pro benchmarks that have been thrown around this board to demonstrate that exact point. Low-clocked G5s are performing roughly on a clock-for-clock parity with the G4 on anything that doesn't have explicit ties to their AGP 8x graphics bus, the memory bandwidth, or 64-bit integers and math. As such, most consumer tasks won't see much lift, if any at all.
I'm going to be a devil's advocate and take the opposite stance just for a moment. All tasks, to some extent, will depend on memory bandwidth and display capability, and thus there will no doubt be a tiny increase in performance. Nonetheless, will it be worth the extra cost and problems? My guess is that for the near future it won't. Mostly, proponents of the G5 PowerBook seem to be basing their statements on technolust and a generalised desire for bragging rights, as opposed to any objective measure of performance.
thatwendigo said:
This doesn't seem to matter to them. Someone on the iMac thread is hoping for four RAM slots, and it didn't seem to phase anyone on this thread when I pointed out that 64-bit addressing does nothing at the moment if you don't have RAM over 4GB to be assigned.
Not to mention that 64-bit addressing only comes into play if you wish to assign more than 4GBytes of RAM to any single process...
thatwendigo said:
The FreeScale e600 G4-successor chip is a 2.0ghz dual-core design with an on-die DDR memory controller, 400mhz FSB, higher L2 cache, and (rumored) double-precision 128-bit AltiVec units. It puts out 22 watts and has at least two logical cores in the space of one processor.
Actually that sounds very enticing. Assuming there is a means of switching off one of the cores and throttling back clock-speeds when not executing compute-intensive tasks, it could be a very serious contender.
thatwendigo said:
Reports have been coming in about the increases in performance for using the IBM Fortran and C compilers, and there are some that are claiming anything between 40 and 200% performance increase from the additional efficiency in usage of the processors. If you could gain 40% real-world performance from merely switching compilers, well... It seems like a no-brainer to me. Apple needs to shift over to XCC and make it available to their developers as a part of the tools. It would make a decent use for that warchest they're sitting on, if they're not buying Macromedia, Adobe, or Sun anytime soon.
And yet, so far as I can ascertain, everything coming out of Apple recently has still been compiled with GCC. If there was a single question I could ask Steve Jobs, it would have to be "When will Apple switch to XCC?" I honestly cannot understand why they have not done so already - it is after all GCC binary-compatible. It would seem an obvious step to take in order to gain immense amounts of consumer satisfaction and acclaim. And yet, so far, nothing. Users still gripe about what a slowpoke the Finder is and what a resource-intensive OS OSX can be. Infact, I am starting to worry if Apple will ever switch to XCC. If they don't do it cometh 10.4, I shall be really angry, because I'll interpret it as just a cheap means of keeping adepts on the "Apple Hardware Treadmill". Just the other day I recompiled my Darwin kernel (to add MAC-address spoofing for certain security tests I wished to run) and the thought did actually dawn on me of compiling it with the XCC compiler a colleague of mine has. In the end, a few preoccupations prevented me from doing so: after all, what's the point of having a fast XCC-compiled Darwin kernel when you're stuck with GCC-compiled QuartzExtreme, Aqua, Finder, QuickTime, &c.? Even if incompatibilities may be present, this would not be unsurmountable - for example, the Linux kernel tree now accepts patches for GCC- and ECC-specific problems, since the latter (again a highly optimised IBM compiler) has proven itself to be able to compile the Linux kernel.

Let us hope that XCC-compiled OSX is not far away. The alternative is unthinkable (or unbrearable).
 
qubex said:
Edited due to length
Let us hope that XCC-compiled OSX is not far away. The alternative is unthinkable (or unbrearable).

I'll extend my welcome as well, qubex - it's alweays nice to see new members come aboard with intelligent opinions on things who can carry on intelligent conversations. I quite enjoyed reading through your and thatwendigo's exchanges, and just thought I'd add my 2 cents in as well, for what it's worth, although you've pretty much covered everything already. ;)

Regarding the compiler issue, I too have read about performance increases due to the increased efficiency in processor utilization - to me it's a no-brainer as well. If users could realize signficant, and I stress real-world performance gains, simply from moving to a different compiler, then Apple would be foolish in my opinion to not take advantage of this and let developers out there dig their claws into it and go crazy - all sorts of benefits could be realized. Let's hope Apple realizes this potential and acts on it!
 
Wow! What a thread!

If I could weigh in ---

I just finished editing my first feature film on a Dualie G5 2ghz

The movie is 100 mins long, and it involves many effects, including bluescreening and compositing --- actually the preview can be found right here -

http://homepage.mac.com/hasandaddymac/iMovieTheater28.html

Anyhoo ---

I've edited on G3's, G4's, and G5's, as well as desktops and laptops

The G3, although a good chip, really IS NOT suited for editing ---- as a matter of fact, after editing on a G4, G3 editing is a nightmare --- it can handle it, but that's about it -- just 'handle' it

G4 editing, for the most part, has been pretty good

G5 editing though, especially in a DUAL system, IS AMAZING!!!! Despite the effects I had within this movie, and the gigantic project files, the rendering times were OUT OF THIS WORLD ----- in actuality, rendering never took time out of my schedule

when I use to edit on G3's and G4's though, I would have to literally schedule RENDERING into my workflow plans - the G5 has made that obsolete

with all of this mind -----

a G5 Powerbook really would be AMAZING for us video editors out here

Granted, I own a 1 ghz G4 powerbook, and the editing is solid, but the G5 really leaves it in the dust ----- I also hear that single G5 units are faster than most dual G4 units

so while some have posted, citing that the speed really doesn't make a difference, etc etc --- IT DOES

lastly ---- for those of you debating a PowerBook purchase ---

if you're doing video work, then use that money towards a desktop G5..... even if the G5 Powerbook comes out tomorrow, it will still be at least two years behind the technology that is within that Dual desktop system

If you MUST have the portability, then a G4 at 1.5 ghz is PLENTY, but load your computer up with RAM!!! 2 gigs if you can afford it ---- it will make a BIG difference (take it from one filmmaker to another)

if you can afford to wait for a G5 Powerbook, then that's fine too..... however, I don't see a 1.5 G4 becoming obsolete anytime soon

otherwise, any current Powerbook, with 512 RAM will be just fine too...... but processor and RAM upgrades really go a LONG way on OS X and FCP
 
HasanDaddy said:
Wow! What a thread!
a G5 Powerbook really would be AMAZING for us video editors out here

[snip]

I also hear that single G5 units are faster than most dual G4 units

I'm not so sure about that. The 1.5 G4 Powerbook I have in my hands is only very marginally slower than a 1.6ghz G5 desktop at rendering. Most of the speed advantages of the G5 are dual to FSB and the advantages that provides ESPECIALLY to dual processing. (www.barefeats.com for all the rendering shootouts between machines)

I am a professional video editor too, and while I prefer to cut on a desktop system, having a powerbook is very useful for client reviews and in the field stuff. I often run a feed from the split into my powerbook and use it to do quick tests of chroma keys or to check waveforms and sometimes cuts (though usually my coverage is good! ;P).

If you have no need to go portable, then yeah, having a powerbook is a big expense for little gain. If you have a need to go portable, then rest assured that the current G4 powerbooks are no slouches as far as editing goes... and sure, you have to plan your workflow around rendering, but you always have to do that to some extent. It actually makes you a more efficient editor imnsho.

When I was freelance, I found having a powerbook to be a better choice than a desktop, because no clients wanted to come to my dodgy little ****hole of a study and watch me cut. It was very impressive that I could go them and do cutting when they wanted to review...
 
Biki ---

have you tried doing your work on a Dualie G5 2 ghz? It's AMAZING, bro!

btw ---- I'm curious about the G4 1.5 --- how much of a difference is it, compared to a G4 1 ghz? A HUGE difference? or about the same?

THANKS
 
HasanDaddy said:
Biki ---

have you tried doing your work on a Dualie G5 2 ghz? It's AMAZING, bro!

btw ---- I'm curious about the G4 1.5 --- how much of a difference is it, compared to a G4 1 ghz? A HUGE difference? or about the same?

THANKS

Hmm. Haven't done a side by side comparison with my TiBook though I have done some rendering this week (why does downconverting from 10bit Uncompressed to DV always take bloody ages?). It is noticeably snappier overall, so it wouldn't surprise me if its faster at rendering.

I've used a dual 1.8 and a dual 2ghz, but the latter only a little. I'll be replacing the dual 1.4 (which is faster than the single 1.5) at work with a new G5 whenever they're announced.

So yeah, point is that most of the benefit of a G5 is due to higher clock cycles and faster FSB... whcih is especialy mnoticeable in dual processor machines.

Remember, the G4's altivec performance is actually better than G5s IIRC.
 
Biki -- should I consider upgrading my 1 ghz PB to a 1.5 ghz one? I wasn't going too, but your analysis has me thinking....?

I recall that BareFeats published an article saying that the G5 1.8 single beat out the G4 1 ghz dual...?
 
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