PowerBook G5 - 'Some Time'

[thatwendigo]

Moving the powermac to g5 was a big mistake, because the g4 was a perfectly good chip and a lot cheaper. Actually, I dont think the g5 even exists. Its still just a g4, but it is and has always been so fast that noone is noticing the difference. Its all in our minds.

Actually, the rumors say that the G4 was more expensive per unit, and I believe it. The G5 is a better chip, overall, and you're not going to find many people disagreeing with that around here. However, a place it's not a good solution is in a laptop. One reason the G5 is so fast is its incredible bus speed, which will roast a lap pretty quickly.

I wish apple would hire you as chief of development.
Faster powerbooks? nah, not needed. Evolving the os? nah, its perfect right now.

Riiight. Because what we said had anything to do with not advancing the line, instead of telling people to calm down and give Apple at least as much time as it took to get the G4 in a laptop?

My bitchin has very little to do with apple, and very much to do with you telling me what i could use, and what i couldnt use.

Sounds to me like a lack of reading comprehension is the main culprit.

 

[oingoboingo]

Maybe you should turn that around. Perhaps there's nowhere else on the web that you'll find a community that will accept the reality of the market quite so readily.

I have printed this line out, and currently have it blu-tacked above my monitor. Every time I look at it, I giggle. Thanks for the laugh thatwendigo

 

[thatwendigo]

I have printed this line out, and currently have it blu-tacked above my monitor. Every time I look at it, I giggle. Thanks for the laugh thatwendigo

While I suspect that's deragatory, I'll take it as a compliment. Nothing like making other's laugh.

Incidentally, I didn't honestly believe that when I said it. Mac users, or at least a lot of them around here, seem to have gotten pretty whiny of late. Those of us who understand things tend to be either more accepting, or at least better able to phrase their disagreement.

 

[thatwendigo]

Josh_m and oingoboing: Thanks for the informative posts.

Which leads to one underlying question: Do you think Apple could put a G5 in a laptop similar to their current offerings today or are they deliberately NOT doing so for other reasons? (Explain the "other reasons" if possible.)

You may begin...




Squire

My list:
1) Heat - Clock for clock, the G5 is generally a better performer than the G4, but at the expense of a greater heat profile. This is less of an issue in the 970fx than it was in the original chips, but is still something to be thoght about. On top of that, one of the main reasons that the overal systems are faster is the increased interconnect between systems - namely, the high-speed system bus and RAM banks that are fully drawn upon. Because of the problem with moving power across thin, imperfect materials over longer distances than in a chip, the bus is likely to be one off the largest factors in the delay. Add to this a new, hotter, faster ASIC, and you've got quite the predicament.
2) Battery Draw - It's not just that the system is going to be hotter, overall, but also that the heat has to come from somewhere. For those who haven't really considered it, the reason that computers get hot is that a lot of electricity is flowing through some pretty tiny pathways. That puts off radiant heat, but also means that the whole system is going to be hungrier and need more to power it just to keep the same battery life.
3) Interconnect Speeds - The bus needs to be fast to keep a G5 performing, or else you're just not going to see the same performance as in the desktops. Likewise, the discs and RAM need to be as high-end as possible, in order to keep the processor from being choked off. That means its likely 7200 RPM drives (or at least 5400), PC 3200 SO-DIMMs, and the fastest optical drive you can cram in a laptop case will be needed to keep up performance that would be noticeably better than the G4.
4) Interface Issues - There is no G5 laptop motherboard to base this off of, unlike the PowerBook bumps with the G4. They're not pin-compatible or even using the same foundational elements, so a whole new design that somehow overcomes the above issues is going to be needed.
5) Supply - The 970fx is reported to be having issues with being delivered in quantity. As such, existing products will almost certainly be receiving them first.

 

[oingoboingo]

While I suspect that's deragatory, I'll take it as a compliment. Nothing like making other's laugh.

Incidentally, I didn't honestly believe that when I said it. Mac users, or at least a lot of them around here, seem to have gotten pretty whiny of late. Those of us who understand things tend to be either more accepting, or at least better able to phrase their disagreement.

If you check some of the other posts I've made to today, I've been trying very hard not to be whiny for the sake of being whiny, (eg: "APPLE SUCKS!! WHERE IS THE G5 POWERBOOK!?!?!?! G4 SUCKS!!!! DELL R0X0R5!!!") because you are right, there is a lot of that around.

I've said this so many times today that I'll be repeating it in my sleep tonight for sure, but I've never said the G4 PowerBook updates were bad. In fact, for example I think Apple has done an excellent job with the new 1.33GHz 12" PowerBook...an extra 33% core clock speed, 64MB VRAM, 60GB standard HDD, AirPort Extreme included, and (in Australia) something like a AU $600 price drop (including the APX card). Excellent work, Apple. Check my posting history if you like. The thread you came in on was about something different.

What I was arguing against is a definite notion from some posters here that the current lineup should be good enough for everybody, and if they don't like it, they can leave/buy a Dell/eat their own faeces. Simply put, these 1.5GHz PowerBooks aren't going to be fast enough for some types of heavy users. And on top of that, a response of "well just wait another couple of minutes for the job to run" isn't really a helpful one...if we all could wait "just a few more minutes", then we wouldn't have microwaves, jet planes, or freeways. If people are happy with their current Macs, or with the new PowerBooks, then really, honestly, I'm happy for you. But there are some users here who will be much better served by the upcoming PowerBook G5s, and they are going to really improve their producivity over and above the current G4s.

What I don't then want to have is someone else telling me (or telling someone else) that "a G4 will be good enough for anything, and good enough for you", because a) it's incredibly arrogant and downright wrong, and b) no different to people saying "all G4 PowerBooks are too slow, nothing is worth considering until the G5 PowerBook". Different users, different needs.

 

[aswitcher]

Lets say Apple gets over all the G5PB hurdles and gets this baby out.

What's it going to cost? I am not convinced it will be at the same price point as the G4. I think it will come out initially as an additional line for "super users" and be priced some hundreds of US dollasr higher for the grunt, new screen etc.

Also it maybe only initially be a 17. I could see the 12" taking a far bit longer to fix.

I know this is going against precident (as far as I know)...

 

[oingoboingo]

Lets say Apple gets over all the G5PB hurdles and gets this baby out.

What's it going to cost? I am not convinced it will be at the same price point as the G4. I think it will come out initially as an additional line for "super users" and be priced some hundreds of US dollasr higher for the grunt, new screen etc.

Also it maybe only initially be a 17. I could see the 12" taking a far bit longer to fix.

I know this is going against precident (as far as I know)...

OK, let's launch into rampant speculation mode. My guess is that for the next revision at least, the 12" PowerBook stays with a G4 (maybe the 1.5GHz 7447A), and the 15" and 17" PowerBooks are the ones which get the G5s first.

I'm not so sure about the pricing necessarily increasing though...I think the G5s may actually be cheaper to buy than the G4s, and remember that when the PowerMac G5s were introduced, they were at similar price points to the outgoing PowerMac G4s.

 

[powerbook4me]

Why does it have to be a G5 going into the next update?

What if they came up with a totally new one for portability and power concerns?

 

[aswitcher]

I'm not so sure about the pricing necessarily increasing though...I think the G5s may actually be cheaper to buy than the G4s, and remember that when the PowerMac G5s were introduced, they were at similar price points to the outgoing PowerMac G4s.

Ok speculation it is

Sure, but the powerbooks face potentially expensive new design issues around cooling. I understand that they are even considering rather revolutionary liquid cooling. I hope they don't try anything too revolutionary.

Also the battery life might be an issue given the clockspeed, making them turn to more expensive technologies to maintain mobile endurance. Not sure about this, but if it also has to run the possible liquid cooling...

Then there is the high likelyhood of a screen upgrade, likely to accommodate HDTV on the 17, and generally catchup to the high end pc notebook market. Thats not cheap.

We also have 7200rpm drives, DVD R/W and possibly 4 not 2 slots for ram (being G5).

It all adds up, let alone the R&D costs...

Anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if the G5 first appeared but they kept up sales of the 12 and maybe the 15 combo G4 for those who need/want the features and don't want/can't afford a G5

 

[Squire]

Lets say Apple gets over all the G5PB hurdles and gets this baby out.

What's it going to cost? I am not convinced it will be at the same price point as the G4. I think it will come out initially as an additional line for "super users" and be priced some hundreds of US dollasr higher for the grunt, new screen etc.

Also it maybe only initially be a 17. I could see the 12" taking a far bit longer to fix.

I know this is going against precident (as far as I know)...

I couldn't agree more- especially with your idea (in your later post) of Apple want to recoup some R&D expenses. We'll probably see the G5 in the 17" and possibly the 15" model. The 12" model will be a tougher nut to crack, I think. Which brings me to the next question...

Why does it have to be a G5 going into the next update?

What if they came up with a totally new one for portability and power concerns?

What happened to the successor to the G3? Wasn't it also supposed to be a wicked chip made specifically for the mobile market? I never hear people refer to that anymore. Has anyone heard anything about it? (Was it the G3 with Altivec or am I getting confused with another chip?)

Squire

 

[pigwin32]

Actually no, I asked what the G5 can do that the G4 1.5Ghz CANNOT. The G4 PowerBook is up to the task, you just want to save a minute or 2, hardly a basis for claiming the G4 is not up to the job, your just impatient

Cmon man, a minute or 2?

I'm am so on side with oingo on this, it's almost like the days when a pub full of Kiwis would cheer Australia against the common enemy South Africa.

Reminiscing aside, are you serious, you don't mind waiting? Do you have children? My spare time is almost non-existent without having to wait for my computer to get stuff done. Of course if I was attempting to do anything serious I wouldn't be spending my time here but you know, it's PB update season so WTF.

Specifically a G5 can take advantage of the tuning that Apple is going to apply to it's operating system and applications. For a user like myself who upgrades infrequently I want my next laptop to be current for as long as possible.

I typically do a variety of stuff on my TiBook 667, iPhoto, iMovie, Mail.app, some web development. Upgrading to an AlBook 1.5 would certainly improve the processing of raw image files from my Canon camera and I did consider the update because having to wait *is* really annoying. Especially if I want to tweak any of the settings and reprocess an image, at the moment it's too slow to be practical. A new G4 PB would be a quick fix for today's problem (and yes portability is important to me, I'm not considering a desktop). But my TiBook is still sufficient for most of what I do so I can handle the wait for a G5 PB. In fact my TiBook has the same screen as the new PBs which was one of my beefs with the new machines, a higher res screen is going to be great for image processing.

I don't see the whining so much, I see Apple apologists making excuses for what I consider to be a fairly average refresh. I'm more interested in the G5 release, when it will occur, what it will contain, whether chasingapple really is Greg Joswiak, it's about looking for information in a stream of bits.

 

[dernhelm]

My list:
1) Heat - Clock for clock, the G5 is generally a better performer than the G4, but at the expense of a greater heat profile.

Yes, a G5 running at 2+GHz would cast a pretty big heat dissipation problem, but would a G5 running at 1.2? And don't think for one moment that a 1.2GHz G5 Powerbook wouldn't sell like hotcakes.

3) Interconnect Speeds - ... its likely 7200 RPM drives (or at least 5400), PC 3200 SO-DIMMs, and the fastest optical drive you can cram in a laptop case will be needed to keep up performance that would be noticeably better than the G4.

Do you think anyone notices the difference between a 1.33 GHz chip and a 1.5GHz chip? Yet Apple still continues to push out incremental updates even though you don't get noticably better performance. Again a 64 bit G5 powerbook would sell itself - it wouldn't have to be orders of magnitudes faster than the current offerings in order to get people to buy it.

4) Interface Issues - There is no G5 laptop motherboard to base this off of, unlike the PowerBook bumps with the G4. They're not pin-compatible or even using the same foundational elements, so a whole new design that somehow overcomes the above issues is going to be needed.

5) Supply - The 970fx is reported to be having issues with being delivered in quantity. As such, existing products will almost certainly be receiving them first.

Here we agree, this is the real issue - not enough 90nm chips to go around anyway, and that small little niggling issue of redesigning the entire interior of your machine around the new processor. Apple does not have unlimited engineering bandwidth, and they cannot simply "put every available engineer" on a single problem. It will take them some time to completely redesign the powerbook internals (and while they are at it, I'm sure they will redesign the externals as well - form following function).

 

[eSnow]

There are more factors in an Apple notebook then just the CPU people, you sound like a bunch of PC overclocking / hardware swapping freaks.

Thanks for the insult.
Especially since you target it at people, who presumably because of the fact that they are professionals working in advanced fields, know perfectly well the difference between Windows, Unix et al.

If you believe iLife and form Factor are enough to convince me that a sub-standard consumer-laptop (G4 Powerbook) stacks up against a semi-current Centrino, think again.

Now I would love for someone to actually show/tell me exactly what that G4 1.5Ghz machine WILL NOT do for them that ONLY a G5 would?

Im waiting...

In my case - serious Java development. I semi-switched to wintel (cheap Centrino) because none of Apples notebooks even came close to the performance needed. Pentium M (and likely G5) do.

I would buy a 2" 2Ghz G5 PowerBook in an instant, but I have to get my work done, not admire Ive's industrial design a whole day.

 

[eSnow]

One reason the G5 is so fast is its incredible bus speed, which will roast a lap pretty quickly.

And you know this because...?

What I am witnessing was two stages of Apple-apologies over the last months:

1) The 970 cannot go into a laptop. Come on look at those increadible heat sinks in the towers. 8 Fans! Much too hot.

Then the 970FX appeared on the landscape, featuring power characteristics roughly equal to or less than the now-released 7447A (lower consumption for same clock speed than the G4s, higher for faster speeds). So, obviously the point was moot, and the apologists went to stage 2:

2) It's the chipset, dummy! (most people don't even know which part of the chipset). Much too hot, will melt down the whole laptop!

This is still thrown around simply because noone (incl. me) knows anything about the power requirements of the current northbridge chip. It used to be cooled with a heat pipe in the towers, but we know nothing about where it stands now (has it moved to a smaller process as well?). Very convenient.

I challenge you: If you say the chipset is running too hot, post one factual link to prove it.
You can't? Thought so, the chipset-myth is based on believe.

To those pointing to the XServe for an example why the current chips can't go into a laptop: there were XServes G4 - and the same chips went into the PowerBooks only slightly later.

 

[oingoboingo]

And you know this because...?

What I am witnessing was two stages of Apple-apologies over the last months: <snip>

Please don't forget the third stage also: "You don't need the power of a G5 in a notebook. The G4 is fine for everything."

 

[eSnow]

Please don't forget the third stage also: "You don't need the power of a G5 in a notebook. The G4 is fine for everything."

And of course stage 4 (pissed):
- So, go ahead, buy your P.O.S Dell, good riddance, we don't need you PC-sucking MS slave anyways. We have style - and iApps!

 

[SiliconAddict]

It's going to be funny as hell when Apple does come out with a G5 PowerBook which will in all likeliness blow away the G4. And the thread with the title:

Apple Releases 17" PowerBook G5

will have everyone oooing and awing the benchmarks.

I will be sure to post a link to this thread for all those who currently are bitching about how a G5 is unnecessary, overkill, a waste, and how the G4 is good enough for everyone.

Its amazes me how full of crap some people are. Do you hear ANYONE complaining, well other then a small minority, about PowerMac G5's? No it's like: "Look my PowerMac is as fast as all those PC's out there!" (At least that was true 6 months ago.) But you flip over to the PowerBook and its: "Who needs a G5"
Bunch of hypocrites. You (Please note you is not intended to be all inclusive considering I know there are more then a few moderate Mac users out there.) twist, alter, distort, and filter only the fact that you want to see.

Understand this. Good enough is a BS excuse. Are you suggesting that Apple can dictate what I consider good enough?!?! Or are YOU trying to dictate what I consider good enough. How very Orwellian of you. I thought it was think different not think conformist?
Value for the system is where it's at. When one can get a PC laptop priced out the same (Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.) and get BETTER performance out of that laptop for aprox the same price the question will always be brought up: Is the Mac worth the price?

As stated by several others before, yes the sum total of a systems parts need to be taken into consideration: OS, hardware, customer support, system quality, how well the system ages, etc. But consider that hardware affects all other parts of a system. Having the most wonderful OS on the planet means exactly squat if you have a system that isn't getting the job done. The overall computer experience is diminished. And maybe its just me but walking into the Apple store and comparing the speed of OS X on a G5 and on a 17" PowerBook with a 1.33Ghz G4 the OS feels snappier on the G5. Apps open a little faster. Things just get done faster which in turn makes the OS X experience better. That is the overall reason for faster hardware. It’s the user experience that is core here. IMHO getting things done faster and being productive is a byproduct.
And frankly this BS about it doesn't matter if I get things done in 1 minute vs. 2 minutes is a load so high I could start selling it to fertilizing producers to build my own G5 PowerBook. Another excuse. Another reason. This is the exact same crap that was heard time and again for the PowerMac line pre-G5. Unfortunately it has now officially trickled down to the PowerBook.
This is why I believe Apple has probably been working on the G5 for the PowerBook for a while. They had to realize that the G4 would only keep user satisfied for ONLY so long. We haven't hit the wall yet where the majority of users are balking at these speedbumps but if this thread is any indication it's starting. And it’s a pretty good bet that with these speed bumps will come only marginal increases in speed. As has been stated before ad nauseum the system bus or FSB is what is killing the PowerBook. Until something is done to rectify this situation, be it a G4 with a better FSB, a souped up G3, or a G5; you will, most likely, see a release pattern similar to the pre-G5 PowerMacs: Craptastic microspeedbumps that are touted by Mac zealots as good enough! WEEEEE!! Look ma! My shiny new PowerBooks is 7% faster then last years model and yet 30% slower then the average Pentium M laptop.
God I feel alive!!!!

 

[SiliconAddict]

er. Question. Would anyone actually turn down a PowerBook G5?

 

[SiliconAddict]

The dragster shoots off at blinding speeds (and high noise levels mind you) for a short amount of time then it either runs out of gas or comes to a crashing stop. Intel chips go fast but since Windows is the driver it will only perform well for a short amount of time before the system becomes unstable or just flat out crashes, losing work in the progress and taking MORE time then it should. Windows is the worst driver in the world and thinks riding up on the curbs is ok, we can patch them if they break!

What a load of high yield crap.
Have you even USED Windows 2000 or XP?!?! Do you have even an ounce of data to backup your zealot comment?!! My Tosh laptop has been running XP for, crap I'm closing in on 1 year, FLAWLESSLY. NO viruses, NO adware, NO problems. If you are going to make such comments back them up with facts.
I have no problem with someone hacking on a platform. But don't spout out junk that was true 2 Window versions ago.

PS- My Windows 2003 home server has been up for 76 days now with zero downtime. Yep MS is a steaming POS.

 

[Spazmodius]

er. Question. Would anyone actually turn down a PowerBook G5?

Er, answer: NO! The ONLY reason I wait for Apple to release a portable with (hopefully) specs that justify the price is I find OSX to be a far superior product, both to any Windows variant and Linux.

If a duallie 2.0GHz G5 tower were someting I could work with, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But, I repeat, I need a portable. I also need some power. The 1.5GHz PB certainly would be a big improvement over my current Ti667, but if I buy that now, I have to wait 2+ years for another portable due to budget constraints (so sayeth da boss).

It's a serious quandry. My employer is one of the few that lets us pick Mac or PC, and reasonably supports both. My job involves some heavy-duty image processing and analysis. Time is money. My current PB costs me time, and them money. I'm ready to buy a new book. They're ready for me to buy it. I want a Mac; them, they don't care as long as the work gets done. I think I've got 6-8 months, tops before my hand is forced and I have to get something. If G4 PBs are all that's available, Apple has lost a customer who wanted to stick with the Mac.

I'm tired of excuses. Oh, it's the fabs. Oh, it's the chipset. Supply is too low. The G4 is plenty good. Heat. Battery. Somehow, WinTel did the work necessary to make servicible and, most importantly, much faster laptops than what I can buy from Apple. Sorry, but sometimes speed really is important, it's not just "dick-measuring". I'm at the point where I have to say: Apple, no more excuses, no more delays. You give me what I need, or I have to go elsewhere. Simple as that. I'm not bashing. Hell, it bums me out. But that's the reality, and if tinfoil-hat wearing macoholics can't acknowledge this is a chronic problem and voice their concern to St. Jobs, rather than sucking his kneecaps every time he releases yet another 5% speed boost in six months like he's Moses coming down from the mountain, then, well, you get the market obscurity you deserve.

 

[stockscalper]

With the 128 graphics card, 5400 rpm hard drive and faster ram apps are going to feel much snappier on the new Powerbooks!

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

It's going to be funny as hell when Apple does come out with a G5 PowerBook which will in all likeliness blow away the G4. And the thread with the title:

Apple Releases 17" PowerBook G5

will have everyone oooing and awing the benchmarks.

I will be sure to post a link to this thread for all those who currently are bitching about how a G5 is unnecessary, overkill, a waste, and how the G4 is good enough for everyone.

Its amazes me how full of crap some people are. Do you hear ANYONE complaining, well other then a small minority, about PowerMac G5's? No it's like: "Look my PowerMac is as fast as all those PC's out there!" (At least that was true 6 months ago.) But you flip over to the PowerBook and its: "Who needs a G5"
Bunch of hypocrites. You (Please note you is not intended to be all inclusive considering I know there are more then a few moderate Mac users out there.) twist, alter, distort, and filter only the fact that you want to see.

It all really depends on needs. There are some who really could use a G5 in a notebook. It is certainly a superior chip. I agree that a lot of people are overzealous in regards to these PowerBooks. I think it is a decent update, but nothing earth shattering. There are a lot of people who will give Apple every accolade for anything they put out. For me, these updates are immaterial. I've been running an iBook with a G3 for two years and have no intention of getting a new laptop because this iBook is more than adequate for what I do (email, internet, MS Office, iTunes, etc). However, if someone wanted to do more processor intensive things, a Pentium M laptop may be more sufficient - though you will pay as much or more if you want a PC laptop that is compact and somewhat reliable - and you'll likely be stuck with an inferior video card (IBM's only have Radeon 9000s with 32MB).

There are other factors. Cross platform benchmarks are not always accurate. The one advantage that Apple has, even with G4s that are truly inferior in many ways, is the OS. It's not just an ease of use factor, it is a stability factor. I've setup a PC/Mac system for a client that does video editing and animation. This setup includes both desktops and laptops. The PC desktops are custom built by me, the laptops are IBMs, due to reliability. It is true, out of the box the Pentium M (@ 1.6GHZ) is noticeably faster than the PowerBooks (@ 1.25GHZ) when doing processor intensive renders, etc. However, a month down the line the PowerBooks are faster than the Pentium M systems. Why? Windows, over time, clogs up. Even after I clean the PC systems up, they never are as good as when they are freshly loaded. I have to reload the PC systems (desktop and laptop) every two months to try to keep them efficient. That client has now decided to switch over completely to Mac by the end of the year. The processors are slower, but the OS isn't the dog that XP is. They can't run Linux because of the software they use and they've discovered that over the course of the year the Macs have much fewer problems and actually get more work done because OS X doesn't crash very often (only twice on 17 machines over the past year) and it doesn't clog up. Processor speed is meaningless if the machine is not functioning properly or is not working at an optimum level. So raw benchmarks or out of the box tests are not indicative of the real world. PCs make up a small percentage of the machines I've installed for a reason. My clients have switched over to Mac over the past two years because they lost days of work due to PC OS problems. The inferiority of the processor is immaterial to them because the Macs are actually more productive machines because of the lack of significant down time (oh yes, and their ability to sleep without crashing)

Understand this. Good enough is a BS excuse. Are you suggesting that Apple can dictate what I consider good enough?!?! Or are YOU trying to dictate what I consider good enough. How very Orwellian of you. I thought it was think different not think conformist?
Value for the system is where it's at. When one can get a PC laptop priced out the same (Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.) and get BETTER performance out of that laptop for aprox the same price the question will always be brought up: Is the Mac worth the price?

Yes, more than worth the price mainly due to the fact that the PC will not be so fast in a month. Out of the box it is lightning quick. After being used for a whole month, no matter how much maintenance you do, it slows down considerably. Just time the boot times and operations over the course of a month and you'll be startled to find out that speed goes down by 50% - and tendency to crash goes up.

As stated by several others before, yes the sum total of a systems parts need to be taken into consideration: OS, hardware, customer support, system quality, how well the system ages, etc. But consider that hardware affects all other parts of a system. Having the most wonderful OS on the planet means exactly squat if you have a system that isn't getting the job done. The overall computer experience is diminished. And maybe its just me but walking into the Apple store and comparing the speed of OS X on a G5 and on a 17" PowerBook with a 1.33Ghz G4 the OS feels snappier on the G5. Apps open a little faster. Things just get done faster which in turn makes the OS X experience better. That is the overall reason for faster hardware. It’s the user experience that is core here. IMHO getting things done faster and being productive is a byproduct.

This is true. The G5 is significantly better running OS X. But OS X is so far beyond Windows XP. The processor can become immaterial when an OS allows itself to become so clogged up that it takes a serious performance hit. The hardware is nice on the PC end, but Windows is a real killer. If you can do what you need to do on Linux then the PC is the best option, but if your decision lies between Windows and OS X, over time you will get more done on the G4, even though the Pentium M is a better, faster chip for most things (floating point stuff being an exception).

And frankly this BS about it doesn't matter if I get things done in 1 minute vs. 2 minutes is a load so high I could start selling it to fertilizing producers to build my own G5 PowerBook. Another excuse. Another reason. This is the exact same crap that was heard time and again for the PowerMac line pre-G5. Unfortunately it has now officially trickled down to the PowerBook.
This is why I believe Apple has probably been working on the G5 for the PowerBook for a while. They had to realize that the G4 would only keep user satisfied for ONLY so long. We haven't hit the wall yet where the majority of users are balking at these speedbumps but if this thread is any indication it's starting. And it’s a pretty good bet that with these speed bumps will come only marginal increases in speed. As has been stated before ad nauseum the system bus or FSB is what is killing the PowerBook. Until something is done to rectify this situation, be it a G4 with a better FSB, a souped up G3, or a G5; you will, most likely, see a release pattern similar to the pre-G5 PowerMacs: Craptastic microspeedbumps that are touted by Mac zealots as good enough! WEEEEE!! Look ma! My shiny new PowerBooks is 7% faster then last years model and yet 30% slower then the average Pentium M laptop.
God I feel alive!!!!

The time comparison, as I've said before, becomes irrelevant over several weeks of use. If you use a PC to get email, do calculations, render stuff, use the internet, type of documents, and if you download anything or install any programs on it, you're going to notice that that 30% speed difference gets smaller every week. Funny thing is that my iBook has only gotten faster with time. Granted, it's not a speed demon, but it seems that everything runs faster everytime I update OS X.

That all said, the G4 should only be a temporary solution. It was a great chip three years ago+ but is not great as is. It could be much better with some on onboard memory controller, 1MB L2 cache, and true DDR support with higher bus speeds. If Motorola can successfully transition to 90nm this summer, as scheduled, in Crolles then there may be life left, especially on the consumer end. Although the rumors of a dual core G4 with better bus support coming in the fall are intriguing, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Is the G4 sufficient? For now, it still is - but not due to Motorola's engineering. It is sufficient because the OS on the Mac is much better than Windows. Software bogs down the PC. Of course, it does on the Mac end too. Who knows how well the G4 would do on some apps if they were properly optimized instead of poorly ported. All that said, it is in Apple's best interest to get a G5 into the PowerBooks in the next revision. From my understanding, the biggest problem right now is not engineering and heat issues. Friends at IBM tell me it's the supply of 90nm 970FXs is very low, BUT that problem should be corrected by the end of summer.

 

[Snowy_River]

OK, let's launch into rampant speculation mode. My guess is that for the next revision at least, the 12" PowerBook stays with a G4 (maybe the 1.5GHz 7447A), and the 15" and 17" PowerBooks are the ones which get the G5s first.

I'm not so sure about the pricing necessarily increasing though...I think the G5s may actually be cheaper to buy than the G4s, and remember that when the PowerMac G5s were introduced, they were at similar price points to the outgoing PowerMac G4s.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If Apple can't put a G5 into the 12" I think it would be a foolish move for them to even keep it around. If people want a 12" G4 based laptop, the iBook is available...

 

[MadMan]

What a load of high yield crap.
<SNIP>
PS- My Windows 2003 home server has been up for 76 days now with zero downtime. Yep MS is a steaming POS.

By that, you mean that you haven't applied any of MS's security patches released over the last 2 1/2 months?

MM

 

[thatwendigo]

Simply put, these 1.5GHz PowerBooks aren't going to be fast enough for some types of heavy users. And on top of that, a response of "well just wait another couple of minutes for the job to run" isn't really a helpful one...if we all could wait "just a few more minutes", then we wouldn't have microwaves, jet planes, or freeways. If people are happy with their current Macs, or with the new PowerBooks, then really, honestly, I'm happy for you. But there are some users here who will be much better served by the upcoming PowerBook G5s, and they are going to really improve their producivity over and above the current G4s.

Simply put, not even the PowerBook G5s will be fast enough for some people, and they'lll find something to complain about the moment that specs are released, again when the actual machines are in their hands, and again when some PC laptop that's eight times the weight and as loud as a leaf blower manages to beat it in a rigged benchmark. I'm against a mindset, not reality. Yes, there are circumstances where faster machines would be better for applications (nearly all circumstances, actually), but the reality of it is that the G5 was never intended as a laptop chip. It's a modified server processor that was shoehorned into a desktop, and is not trying to be shoved even further down so that it fits in a portable.

Also, you're using a fallacious comparison. The microwave, jet planes, and highways all take time to create, and you can't just whine to rush them. In addition, they were created to fulfill needs that didn't really exist yet, especially in the case of the jet and the highway. People got along just fine without Messerschmits and the DoD-created transporation system, until someone commercialized them. The G5 laptops will be a redesign of existing systems that will give extra performance at a greater cost in technology.

Yes, a G5 running at 2+GHz would cast a pretty big heat dissipation problem, but would a G5 running at 1.2? And don't think for one moment that a 1.2GHz G5 Powerbook wouldn't sell like hotcakes.

I do, because it would be a step backwards. They'd lose out to professionals, who would probably know that a 1.5 G4 can beat a 1.2 G5, and consumers would see the numerical difference. Clock-for-clock, the G5 is better, but not that much better, and certainly not in an environment where they might end up dropping the bus down to save on heat.

Do you think anyone notices the difference between a 1.33 GHz chip and a 1.5GHz chip? Yet Apple still continues to push out incremental updates even though you don't get noticably better performance. Again a 64 bit G5 powerbook would sell itself - it wouldn't have to be orders of magnitudes faster than the current offerings in order to get people to buy it.

Actually, yes, I do think people notice the difference, especially when there's a major susbsystem upgrade like there has been in the latest revision. They moved up the hard drives and graphics cards both, factors which have time and time again shown not only real world improvement, but also subjective improvement in usage.

Here we agree, this is the real issue - not enough 90nm chips to go around anyway, and that small little niggling issue of redesigning the entire interior of your machine around the new processor. Apple does not have unlimited engineering bandwidth, and they cannot simply "put every available engineer" on a single problem. It will take them some time to completely redesign the powerbook internals (and while they are at it, I'm sure they will redesign the externals as well - form following function).

Yep.

If you believe iLife and form Factor are enough to convince me that a sub-standard consumer-laptop (G4 Powerbook) stacks up against a semi-current Centrino, think again.

Then. Don't. Buy. One.

Jesus...

And you know this because...?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's because of that 600 watt PSU that sits inside the case? Since we know the voltage of the processors (around 50w each for the 970 at 2.0ghz), and can find the power draw of the graphics cards (approximately 60-75w, from the review of the NV6800), and we know that hard drives don't chew all that much power up... Where else is that power going, snow? Mind telling me that?

I don't know this, but it's reasoned speculation.

Then the 970FX appeared on the landscape, featuring power characteristics roughly equal to or less than the now-released 7447A (lower consumption for same clock speed than the G4s, higher for faster speeds). So, obviously the point was moot,

Yes, when the 970fx showed up, "apologists" moved on to looking at the other systems. However, some of us had been worried about those all along, and had never stopped their insistence that certain factors would be more difficult to place in a laptop. Find me a PC laptop that's an inch thick and running an 800mhz bus, but also as quiet as Apple's PowerBooks.

This is still thrown around simply because noone (incl. me) knows anything about the power requirements of the current northbridge chip. It used to be cooled with a heat pipe in the towers, but we know nothing about where it stands now (has it moved to a smaller process as well?). Very convenient.

Riiiight. So jumping from 167mhz to 800+mhz isn't going to increase the heat of an interconnect, let alone the Northbridge chips? I'm not sure what world you live in, snow, but I ran all of this past a couple of actual engineers that I know. According to them, what I say makes sense in the sense of physics, but admittedly, they're not on the Apple R&D team.

You can't? Thought so, the chipset-myth is based on believe.

So is anything you say, so I don't get where you're coming off so high and mighty, especially since you haven't offered anything more than "apologist" this and "it's been done before" that, with a healthy sprinkling of implied "man, you guys are stupid." As such, I'd appreciate you showing us some figures that say the components are all cool enough to fit.

You can't? That's what I thought.

Please don't forget the third stage also: "You don't need the power of a G5 in a notebook. The G4 is fine for everything."

I never said that, and I don't really recall seeing anyone else say that it works for everything. Obviously, the G5 does outperform the G4 in adesktop environment, but that doesn't mean that the same will hold true in the limited surrounds of a laptop.

And with that, I'm stopping for now. Silicon's gone over the edge.