PowerBook G5 - 'Some Time'

[hacksaw]

Is there a reason why Apple or Moto can't (or refuse) to increase the bus speed? I have to agree, the FSB is the G4's problem.

But I don't really mind. I've got a friend who believes my 867MHz G4 is comparable to a 2.4GHz P4. I'm not saying anything...

Maybe you choose your friiends more carefully. Hummmm...

http://www.barefeats.com/al15b.html

 

[pigwin32]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

I'm glad Apple is being vocal about the timetable (albeit a bit vague) because drooling fanboys need to have this stamped on their pasty little foreheads: The G5 Powerbook is a monumental undertaking. Customers expect every other component, such as battery life, to remain the same or better than the previous generation. So it's not just a matter of slapping a G5 in there and doing some minor retooling.

Expect to see it January '05 at the earliest, and don't be surprised if we don't see it until June '05.

Hmmm, don't know any drooling fanboys, oh wait, are you talking about me?

I don't buy your June '05 timeframe. First of all the VP of hardware product marketing is hardly going to say there are G5's just around the corner on the day the G4 line is refreshed. The rest of his comments are just obfuscation.

I agree that G5's aren't just around the corner but it's pure speculation as to when they will be available. This latest refresh has given Apple some breathing space and I guess you can give props to Mot for that. But I sincerely doubt there will be another speed bump in the G4 PB. Apple has to release the G5's at speeds higher than the then current G4's. This means every speed increment in the G4 PB makes it more difficult to release the G5 PB, the increased speed also increases the heat that needs to be dissipated. Apple's only recourse is to get the G5 into the PB asap and then work on the speed/heat issue in situ.

Apple has had G5's to play with now for a considerable amount of time and I think based on this latest refresh, all PB engineering resources have also for some time been engaged in developing the new machine; the refresh was pretty much a pin-compatible component swap requiring minimal engineering input.

My prediction is Jan '05 at the *latest* and otherwise before the end of this year. Of course I've been awfully wrong before.

 

[TyleRomeo]

ok so if there isn't a G5 powerbook at the next revision, what is apple going to do? The g4 is at 1.5GHZ. Can it go up to 1.8GHZ in 8 months? I don't think so. We had a 1.42GHZ 12 months ago. They moved up 80MHZ in 12 months. So unless people don't mind a 1.56GHZ powerbook next. I only see the g5 option or a slower dual G4 option. Maybe dual 1GHZ or dual 1.25GHZ for the 15 and 17 powerbooks. and bump the 12' to a single 1.5GHZ and max out the ibooks at 1.33GHZ and 1.25 for the 12 inch with a 167MHZ bus. What do you guys think?

Tyler

 

[Koodauw]

Come on guys and gals "Some time" is code for "Wait untill next Tuesday"

I do agree with the above posters though. The G5 is a great chip, but it runs hot. You have to take the good with the bad. The bad in this case is your not going to get a PB G5 for a while. It's not like Apple can just snap it's finger at get it in there. I am sure they want it in a PB just as much as we do.

Although the thought of the current PB's (or ones very similar) for at least the next year, is downright scary. I think Apple is in a bit of a bind here.

What if.....

The iBook series uses an IBM processor while the PB uses a Moto one right? Anyone give me a breif over veiw of the differences? Any chances these things could reved up more than the Moto ones and find away into the PB's?

 

[gskiser]

Typical Rhetoric from a Marketing Executive

First, I wouldn't put much stock in the "two year" comparison to the G4. Its this guys job to do the PR spin. As another poster pointed out, if PBG5's were being released tomorrow, this guy would still plug the G4 until morning. What He's a marketing executive doing an interview on the day they released refreshed PBG4's. What's he going to say, 'Yeah, the G4 is on it's last leg and this update is really just to keep sales going until the PBG5 is released in a few months. But please, dont let that discourage you from plunking down a couple grand on these beautiful "new" G4PBs. He's got to allude to a time far off (2 years), otherwise, there's no justification for buying one of these updated models. They said the same thing about the G3 in ibooks last year. When questioned about the possibility of a G4 iBook they replied with something to the effect that 'we believe the G3 has a lot of life left in it.' Yeah right, like any of us believed that. Though I knew that statement was garbage, they actually put the G4 in the iBook sooner that I expected. I wasn't expecting a G4 in the iBook until the PBG5 it.

Secondly, I've heard many people say that we don't truly 'need' the power of a PBG5 and that the G4 can handle everyday tasks. This is true, we don't 'need' that much power yet. In addition, those same people throw out accusations that we're just vain in wanting the "latest and newest technology". While this may be true for some, it is not for all. People making those claims are forgetting the users like me who upgrade once only 5-6 years. I'm currently on an iBook 366mghz G3 and am ready to upgrade. I've filled my hard drive with Photos and Music and have finally maxed out this computer. While I don't need the power of a G5 today, and could get by with a G4, I'm looking ahead long term. I cannot afford to upgrade every 2 years like some, and I want a powerbook that is going to last me 5+ years. I don't see this future for the G4. The G5 and 64bit is the direction Apple is moving. While the OS X may not support 64bit for another year (or maybe even more), that is the direction we're going, and I want a computer that can support that growth. Its not the raw processing power of the G5 I want, but rather it's potential to take advantate of the direction Apple is headed. My G3 has served me well, but is on its last leg. I got 6 years out of it. I just don't see the PBG4s as having this type of longevity at this point. I could care less about the 'power' of the G5, I just want it because it's not going to be an obsolete processor in a year. The G4 is going the direction of the G3.

Finally, the PBG5 could come in June or it could come in Jan. Who knows. Either way, it's going to make it to the PB faster than the G4 did. The 2yr analogy doesn't hold water. That was several years ago, a different time. Technology has changed. Portables were not as commonplace, and we're seeing a trend of people wanting the portability over the desktop. This is going to speed things up. Plus, back when then, they didn't have the Xserve. We know that they can get a G5 in a small thin enclosure and control the heat. Not to say that PBG5's are around the corner simply because of the Xserve, but it's not going to be any two years. I agree with others who said 'if you need a PB now, buy it now', 'if you can wait, wait'. I desperately want one, but cannot force myself to pay for a processor thats on its way out the door. Waiting only a few months to purchase a PB could result in a few years of extra use. A PBG4, I may get a good 2 years. A PBG5, I definitely get 5-6 years out of it. Given what I've said, I don't think the PBG5 is as far off as the marketing clown leads us to believe. I understand that if you wait for the newest technology, you'll always be waiting. However, in the case of where we know the G4 is on its way out, a few months patience now could result in years of extra use.

 

[Steven1621]

honestly, one can't really be suprised that it might take awhile...

 

[mxpiazza]

there isn't going to be another revision... powerbook updates are roughly every 8 months, and that will take us right into MWSF '05 in january, upon which the g5 books will be announced.

just one man's educated guess, i'm not going to run around pretending that i know someone inside apple or crap like that.

 

[h'biki]

Plus, there's always the question: Right now, what do you absolutely need a G5 in a portable for that a nice 1.5 GHz G4 can't accomplish? I'm sure there are exceptoins, but really, does anyone truly NEED a G5 in a PowerBook other than simply for bragging rights? If you need a G5, I say get a tower...

I concur. I'm a professional editor who has both a desktop and a laptop. To me, I would gain more benefit from a dual G4 17" Powerbook than a single G5 Powerbook. Nonetheless, I'm upgrading my 1ghz TiBook to a 1.5ghz Albook. 50% speed increase is worth it.

It seems to me that the people who do all the whining are the very people who don't actually -need- the machines. Its about dick measuring. Single Processor G4s, clock for clock, aren't that much slower than a single processor G5 -- at least on the stats I've seen.

 

[pigwin32]

Photo of PB G5

PowerPage have a photo of the new PB G5. Hopefully Apple will slim it down before the June release.

 

[Borg3of5]

As for me...

I've been using my 800 MHz G3 iBook for about 1.5 years now, and I've honestly got to say, that for what I use it. It does just fine. It's no desktop replacement though.

I'm really hoping that the G5's get updated sometime in the next few months; because, this is the way I'm going. Going from a G3 to a G5, and skipping the G4 altogether, equates to going from the Dark Ages to the Present day. The jump from 32-bit tech to 64-bit tech is humongous. The Dual 2.0 GHz G5 is only about 9% faster than the Dual 1.8 GHz. My only worry is when the OS is fully converted to 64-bit in a couple of years. Will that difference make the G5 slow as molassas then?

No more laptops for me; compared to the current lineup of dual processor G5's, laptops are great vacation toys, but underpowered for a desktop replacement.

This iBook is cute and everything, I just want to feel the raw power of a dual processor G5

 

[hacksaw]

I concur. I'm a professional editor who has both a desktop and a laptop. To me, I would gain more benefit from a dual G4 17" Powerbook than a single G5 Powerbook. Nonetheless, I'm upgrading my 1ghz TiBook to a 1.5ghz Albook. 50% speed increase is worth it.

It seems to me that the people who do all the whining are the very people who don't actually -need- the machines. Its about dick measuring. Single Processor G4s, clock for clock, aren't that much slower than a single processor G5 -- at least on the stats I've seen.

This might indicate how these processors will scale.

http://www.barefeats.com/pvp.html

http://www.barefeats.com/fcp4.html

 

[Kelson]

Umm...you do have options...

If you are on a iBook 366mhz G3, you could very easily grab a low end iBook for $1k, which would be a major upgrade. The iBook is going to remain G4 based for a long time. Why would you do this?

You would get a major upgrade now, at very low cost. You could then use this computer until the G5 Powerbook, Rev.B is released. After all, Apple does have a bad track record on Rev.A. When the PBG5 Rev.B comes out, you sell the iBook G4 on eBay, recouping at least 50% of your investment.

This means that for 500$ or less, you get a G4 1ghz system to use for the next 1.5 yrs, as Rev.B of the PBG5 is unlikely to ship before Q3CY05. Then you get your PBG5 to last a few years.

I'm running on a 1ghz TiBook, which I had entertained ideas of refreshing in Q4CY04, but with each OS upgrade improving performance, I just don't see the need. I figure it will easily last me until MWSF '06.

Also, the G4 is not going to be obsolete anytime soon. Apple will be supporting it for the next 3-5 yrs. The core PPC instruction set is the same on the G4 and G5, which is why apps run on both. Just like old Pentium II computers can run Windows XP, albeit slowly.

Oh, and there is more to cooling a laptop than a blade server, or 1RU server. You don't have the same power constraints of a battery, noise constraints for the fans, weight constraints for the portability, and 1RU is alot thicker than 1", which is what a PB is. One of the major constraints is also the DDR controller, which needs to move on-die before the G5 is viable in a laptop.

In closing, the G4 still has significant legs, look at how long it took for Apple to move the iBook to the G4. Assuming the PBG5 hits MWSF '05, you probably won't see G5 iBooks until MWSF '07 if not WWDC '07. If you get 6 yrs from a computer, you are very lucky, it is best to plan for 3-4.

- Kelson

Secondly, I've heard many people say that we don't truly 'need' the power of a PBG5 and that the G4 can handle everyday tasks. This is true, we don't 'need' that much power yet. In addition, those same people throw out accusations that we're just vain in wanting the "latest and newest technology". While this may be true for some, it is not for all. People making those claims are forgetting the users like me who upgrade once only 5-6 years. I'm currently on an iBook 366mghz G3 and am ready to upgrade. I've filled my hard drive with Photos and Music and have finally maxed out this computer. While I don't need the power of a G5 today, and could get by with a G4, I'm looking ahead long term. I cannot afford to upgrade every 2 years like some, and I want a powerbook that is going to last me 5+ years. I don't see this future for the G4. The G5 and 64bit is the direction Apple is moving. While the OS X may not support 64bit for another year (or maybe even more), that is the direction we're going, and I want a computer that can support that growth. Its not the raw processing power of the G5 I want, but rather it's potential to take advantate of the direction Apple is headed. My G3 has served me well, but is on its last leg. I got 6 years out of it. I just don't see the PBG4s as having this type of longevity at this point. I could care less about the 'power' of the G5, I just want it because it's not going to be an obsolete processor in a year. The G4 is going the direction of the G3.

Finally, the PBG5 could come in June or it could come in Jan. Who knows. Either way, it's going to make it to the PB faster than the G4 did. The 2yr analogy doesn't hold water. That was several years ago, a different time. Technology has changed. Portables were not as commonplace, and we're seeing a trend of people wanting the portability over the desktop. This is going to speed things up. Plus, back when then, they didn't have the Xserve. We know that they can get a G5 in a small thin enclosure and control the heat. Not to say that PBG5's are around the corner simply because of the Xserve, but it's not going to be any two years. I agree with others who said 'if you need a PB now, buy it now', 'if you can wait, wait'. I desperately want one, but cannot force myself to pay for a processor thats on its way out the door. Waiting only a few months to purchase a PB could result in a few years of extra use. A PBG4, I may get a good 2 years. A PBG5, I definitely get 5-6 years out of it. Given what I've said, I don't think the PBG5 is as far off as the marketing clown leads us to believe. I understand that if you wait for the newest technology, you'll always be waiting. However, in the case of where we know the G4 is on its way out, a few months patience now could result in years of extra use.

 

[Squire]

Plus, there's always the question: Right now, what do you absolutely need a G5 in a portable for that a nice 1.5 GHz G4 can't accomplish? I'm sure there are exceptoins, but really, does anyone truly NEED a G5 in a PowerBook other than simply for bragging rights? If you need a G5, I say get a tower...

I'm kind of torn here. I need a notebook- no, I'm going to need a notebook- fairly soon. Here are my options:

(A) 1 GHz iBook: The bottom-of-the-line iBook will do nicely for the time being then later, grab a rev. B PB G5 when/if they come out.

(B) combo-drive 12" PowerBook: If instant gratification is what I want, this little puppy might do the trick without breaking the bank.

(C) combo drive 15" PowerBook with BTO backlit keyboard option: Instant gratification but hard on the bank account.

So, my question is this: how much faster would, say a 1.6 GHz G5 be than a 1.5 GHz G4? In other words, if the G5 made it into a notebook, would that necessarily make the notebook a far superior machine?

Squire

 

[aavatsma]

Plus, there's always the question: Right now, what do you absolutely need a G5 in a portable for that a nice 1.5 GHz G4 can't accomplish? I'm sure there are exceptoins, but really, does anyone truly NEED a G5 in a PowerBook other than simply for bragging rights? If you need a G5, I say get a tower...

Why do people keep saying this? I need a faster computer and a g5 is not going to be fast enough. No computer will ever be fast enough as long as people do renderings and other stuff that takes time. I say a computer is fast enough when I never have to wait for it to finish a task, so dont give me some crap about the g4 being fast enough.
But dont get me wrong, I am not a unsatisfied powerbookuser. I take what I can get from apple (as long as I can afford it), and I am sure they do whatever they can to keep the products as good as possible.

And please dont tell me to go by a tower. I am a student, I want the possibillity to take my computer to school and home on vacations. AND I want the possibilty to work with big illustrator-, photoshop- and cad-files without waiting. I dont want to wait all night to see what a render is going to look like, before I make some changes and start the render all over.

I seriously doubt that I am one of the few who would benefit from a faster cpu. If your point is that the g5 wont be any faster than the current g4, you can of course diregard this post. Just dont tell me people dont need faster computers, it just doesnt make any sense.

 

[oingoboingo]

I don't really think there is much that can be said about performance until these units ship and some benchmark tests have been run.

At that time I would be interested in seeing how a 'decked-out' 17" compares to the latest Pentium-M. Real numbers, not just what things 'feel like.'

www.barefeats.com did a small 1.25GHz 15" and 1.33GHz 17" PowerBook vs. Centrino benchmark series a while ago. The results are here:

http://www.barefeats.com/al15b.html

There's not much here...only Unreal Tournament 2003 and Cinebench 2003. Basically both the 1.33GHz 17" PB and the 1.25GHz 15" PB were totally outrun by both a 1.3GHz Centrino and a 1.6GHz Centrino in Cinebench 2003. Check the web page for exact details. Make of those what you will.

 

[oingoboingo]

So in summary...

OK, after the massive explosion in replies that happened in the PowerBook release annoucement thread, I think we should have some kind of condensed, FAQ-like digest which will only take a few minutes to read, but which will convey all of the necessary points. Basically this FAQ is a collection of phrases which you can arrange as you will. You can pose them as questions or statements, mostly just by changing around a few key words and punctuation marks. Go ahead...experiment...mix'n'match!!! It's just like wasting hours reading the real forum!!!

- This is a disappointing update. Still no sign of the G5. Motorola sucks. I will not even consider a PowerBook until it has a 5GHz G5. Dude, I'm getting a Dell.

- Nobody needs a G5 PowerBook. Hell, most people don't even need a G4 PowerBook...it's just wasted processing power. I'm running PhotoShop, Illustrator, Final Cut Pro, GarageBand, Logic and Unreal Tournament 2004 all simultaneously on my 266MHz G3 PowerBook and it runs GREAT!!!. I deeply resent any suggestion that anyone needs more processing power than me. I am the benchmark.

- I can buy a 3.4GHz Dell Inspiron for $29.95 and have it personally delivered by Michael Dell. Only a fool would by a PowerBook.

- That Dell weighs 27.9kg and is made out of cardboard. I know, I worked in an office where we had 5000 Dell Inspirons and they all failed. Every single one of them. My 300MHz G3 toilet-seat iBook runs faster than those things anyway. MHz myth!!! MHz myth!!! Only a fool would buy a Dell. Their support staff are all in India, and instead of sending replacement parts they send stale pappadums.

- Nice updates, but I wish they had 1024MB of video RAM as an option. That would make that slow GeForce FX 5200 FLY!!!!

- 4MB of VRAM is way too much. If anything Apple should get rid of the VRAM chips and replace them with a small image of Steve Jobs. The GeForce FX 5200 in my 12" PowerBook runs UT2004 at 500fps. I don't know what you're talking about. Go back to the Wintel world, fanboi.

- <groan> I only ordered a pallet-full of the old 17" PowerBooks yesterday!!!

- You fool. You should have followed the PowerBook rumours. They've all been 100% reliable. We've had new PowerBooks released every Tuesday since January, you idiot!!!

Does anyone else want to add anything else?

 

[Maverick]

If that's the case screw apple. I'm not waiting over a year for a high performance Apple laptop. And don't tell me the current 1.5Ghz laptop is high performance. Apple users are falling into the Mhz myth. Reality time. PC laptops outperform Apple's *books. I'll get an IBM. Here's a realization Apple better get in a freaking hurry. If they are going to charge a premium for their laptops they DAMN well better have performance to go with it and if not they better change their price scheme accordingly.
This is NOT cool.

Something tells me that even if 7 GHz Uberbook G15's came out tomorrow you still wouldn't be satisfied.

Go ahead and switch. It won't hurt my feelings.

 

[wizard]

What you say is very true - that is bandwidth is an issue. That is why I'd love to see Motorola implement a G4 with a seperate memmory interface. Since motorola already does this with a number of processors I have to wonder why Apple hasn't asked for such a chip yet.

I suspect that Apple is relying on incremental increase at the expense of making drastic performance improvements. Really a shame if you ask me.

AS to the G5 I don't see it in a laptop anytime soon. Wish I was wrong but I think we will need to see something more that an FX before we see them in a PowerBook. By more I mean an entire system of chips optimized for portable usage.

Dave

If Moto can come up with a decent FSB for the G4, it would be a great processor for Powerbooks for sometime.

If we could just get true DDR333 or 266 it would be outstanding! The G4 is not so bad - it's simply a matter of bandwidth that causes the problems.

 

[MacMyDay]

It's not hard to agree that a G5 needs to come into the PowerBook range soon because of the difference between Wintel laptops and Apple's. Having said such, what people tend to forget is the actual design of the PowerBook. You may wish to compare it and say a Dell 2.4GHz kicks its arse or whatever, but it's really not always the case and what you mainly forget is that the Dell's are about 2" thicker, weight a helluva lot more and look bloody ugly. I told myself I'd wait for a G5 and I would if my screen wasn't so buggered, but I'll get a G4 1.5GHz now and just put up with it for the next few years until I can afford another. It'll be my main computer, yeah, but as many have said, you don't actually need that at all. Were I to truly need the power then I'd get a G5 desktop, perhaps a low-end one so I could upgrade it. My friend has a 2.4GHz Dell and it won't run any games on it at all, because the graphics card just can't handle it, nor could my friends Sony 2.8GHz. The Megahertz Myth may be exaggerated, but even more so on Wintel machines that look good from face value, but lack all the key items that the PowerBooks come shipped with, especially now there's the 128Mb VRAM option.

Just what I think

 

[nsb3000]

there isn't going to be another revision... powerbook updates are roughly every 8 months, and that will take us right into MWSF '05 in january, upon which the g5 books will be announced.

You make it sound as if powerbook updates grow on trees...I am sure another eight months after that we are guaranteed to have better faster, GP powerbooks?

 

[deepkid]

Mobile videographers would need portable G5s

Plus, there's always the question: Right now, what do you absolutely need a G5 in a portable for that a nice 1.5 GHz G4 can't accomplish? I'm sure there are exceptoins, but really, does anyone truly NEED a G5 in a PowerBook other than simply for bragging rights? If you need a G5, I say get a tower...

Sure, a G5 portable would be excellent for mobile videographers. I'm considering covering the Democratic and Republican conventions. Having a G5 powerbook to quickly put together some video and publish on the web would be great.

Think of the people who do it full-time and need the quickest turn around.. CNN, etc.

Even ad agency types who travel a lot and need to get it turned around quickly would benefit.

There are other similar scenarios whereby a G5 powerbook with true bandwidth and ability to offer more RAM would be welcomed with open arms.

 

[Migs]

Well said Oingo boingo, I wonder if that can be put at the front of most of these hardware threads.

 

[oingoboingo]

What you say is very true - that is bandwidth is an issue. That is why I'd love to see Motorola implement a G4 with a seperate memmory interface. Since motorola already does this with a number of processors I have to wonder why Apple hasn't asked for such a chip yet.

I suspect that Apple is relying on incremental increase at the expense of making drastic performance improvements. Really a shame if you ask me.

AS to the G5 I don't see it in a laptop anytime soon. Wish I was wrong but I think we will need to see something more that an FX before we see them in a PowerBook. By more I mean an entire system of chips optimized for portable usage.

Dave

I doubt Motorola would really be interested in investing any significant R&D resource into a desktop processor line which is really only used by one customer...and that customer has staked the performance future of their company on moving away from your chip designs!

As many people have pointed out in the past, once the CPU division of Motorola is spun-out, they probably want to concentrate on designing and building new embedded PowerPC designs, rather than sinking a lot of money into upgrading desktop/notebook CPUs destinated for a business relationship which is ultimately a dead-end.

 

[deepkid]

Relax

If they are going to charge a premium for their laptops they DAMN well better have performance to go with it and if not they better change their price scheme accordingly.
This is NOT cool.

Sales figures will determine whether or not customers believe that Apple is charging a premium for their books.

It's like a broken record on the mac forums, but here goes... It's not just about the components in Apple's hardware.. it's the entire computing experience. The operating system, apps on the mac are arguably more enjoyable to use. Not having to deal with virus attacks and worms gives back to productivity. These are crucial benefits to being a mac user.

For this, I'd gladly pay any perceived premium. But this is an antiquated complaint as feature for feature, Apple isn't more expensive. Considering total cost of ownership and productivity gained by not fighting viruses, worms or dealing with a hobbled together and annoying os like XP, makes buying Apple's hardware well worth it.

 

[wizard]

Have you every noticed how the people that complain about dick measuring are the ones not to measure up!

Its a shame that people only see the world form their frame of reference. The I"I never do anthing challenging so why would anyone else" mentality. These are probally the same people that go hiking in the moutains with a rope but never use that rope to climb the mountain.

There are many professions that can and will make use of all the computing resources they have available to them. Just because one can't not imagine this does not mean that it is not the case.

As to a 970 based portable it is very apparent that the 970FX is not ready to go into a portable and may never be ready. Sure this upsets people that would love to have a PowerBook with modern performance capabilities. It does need to be kept in perspective Apple will have faster machines in the future, how those machine come to market is a mystery. We could see dual processors or a special purpose chipset or a truely improved G4. That is the future, in the present many people are justified in their frustration with Apple.

Thanks
dave

I concur. I'm a professional editor who has both a desktop and a laptop. To me, I would gain more benefit from a dual G4 17" Powerbook than a single G5 Powerbook. Nonetheless, I'm upgrading my 1ghz TiBook to a 1.5ghz Albook. 50% speed increase is worth it.

It seems to me that the people who do all the whining are the very people who don't actually -need- the machines. Its about dick measuring. Single Processor G4s, clock for clock, aren't that much slower than a single processor G5 -- at least on the stats I've seen.