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Powerbook Rumors Again

Re: Re: Re: Re: 7457

Originally posted by DGFan
Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?
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Some might say it's a marketing gimmick, but personally I think it's a supply issue. DDR is becoming dominant in the market so it gives Apple the broadest range of possible suppliers-- even if they can't take advantage of it.

The tests I've seen have only shown the slightest of benefits in the most artificial tests.

I think "fake" is a perfectly good term to use here... It's like claiming you have a 12 cylinder engine even if you're only firing 6 of them...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: 7457

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Why not "limited" DDR support? Since it's not a full implementation...
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That sounds like a good compromise. I guess that's why they made you a moderator. 🙂

The important thing here is to make it clear what you're talking about. I suppose you could say that the architecture as a whole has "limited" DDR support--the processor has no support, and the RAM has full support. But when you're talking specifically about the processor, as a few people in this thread have, it's not accurate to talk about "limited" (or "fake" 🙂 ) DDR support. The processor either supports it or it doesn't, and the 7455 and 7457 don't support it at all.

WM
 
Re: Re: Powerbook Rumors Again

Originally posted by cc bcc
If those speeds are correct, the FSB will be at 167 MHz.
7 x 167 = 1.169 GHz
7.5 x 167 = 1.2525 GHz
8 x 167 = 1.336 Ghz

The only purpose of using DDR ram with a 167 MHz FSB is that it's cheaper than 167 MHz SDR SDRAM. (I'm not sure if it even exists.) DDR can easily fill the 167 MHz FSB, just by not using the caracteristics that makes it DDR, they are using Double Data Rate RAM at half the speed, simply because it's cheaper and looks good in advertizing. Effectively it's 167 MHz SDR RAM, not DDR.
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Generally, from what I've seen, the speeds advertised are the actual speeds. As in, mostly exact speeds (ok, so the 867 was really 866.666 Mhz.) That's why I think they aren't using a 166.666 bus. In order to acheive 1.1 Ghz, a 200 or 100 Mhz bus is required to stick to the .5 scheme of multipliers. A multiplier of 6.6 would be necessary to get 1.1 with a 166.666 bus. (You get more exact numbers if you use the .66666.
But, a 1.33 Ghz is possible with a 166 bus, with an exact multiplier of 8 (it comes out evenly, again, if you include the fraction).
 
Originally posted by bluecell
I personally like having nearly the same performance in my notebook as I have in my desktop. I might be spoiled, but I know that I'm not the only person who feels like dropping money on another G4 update would be extremely painfull. I'll wait.
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So what you're saying is that you'd like Apple to cripple their desktops so the laptops can keep pace? 🙄

The only reason the Powerbooks have been close in performance to the PowerMacs is because Mot couldn't build faster chips. It was really just an indication of how slow the desktops had become...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: 7457

Originally posted by DGFan
Because, it would be like advertising that your new computer sports 133 MHz SDRAM but the actual bus is 66 MHz.

Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?
Click to expand...

There is a small benifit for pci/firewire/ethernet/ide, because the ram is talking to the system controller at double speed. So the subsystems (those that can use dma, Direct Memory Access ) don't slow down the cpu.
Other advantages are lower costs, and it looks good in advertising.

edit: typo
 
I am beginning to tune these rumors out. It is getting really sad. End of August does seem too late for college kids. What a shame.
 
Re: Re: Re: Powerbook Rumors Again

Originally posted by bobindashadows
Generally, from what I've seen, the speeds advertised are the actual speeds. As in, mostly exact speeds (ok, so the 867 was really 866.666 Mhz.) That's why I think they aren't using a 166.666 bus. In order to acheive 1.1 Ghz, a 200 or 100 Mhz bus is required to stick to the .5 scheme of multipliers. A multiplier of 6.6 would be necessary to get 1.1 with a 166.666 bus. (You get more exact numbers if you use the .66666.
But, a 1.33 Ghz is possible with a 166 bus, with an exact multiplier of 8 (it comes out evenly, again, if you include the fraction).
Click to expand...

I edited my post to explain the 1.1 Ghz.

But it would make no sense to use a 200 MHz FSB on the low end books, and a 166 MHz FSB on the high end. Or they must be using a 333 MHz FSB on the high end, which would be nice! (actually about bloody time)
Exacly 1.25 would mean a 200 MHz FSB with a 6.25 multiplier, I don't know if that's possible.
 
Originally posted by Analog Kid
So what you're saying is that you'd like Apple to cripple their desktops so the laptops can keep pace? 🙄

The only reason the Powerbooks have been close in performance to the PowerMacs is because Mot couldn't build faster chips. It was really just an indication of how slow the desktops had become...
Click to expand...
Umm... No, I didn't say that at all.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: 7457

ARGH! I lost my reply because Safari crashed on me...

Originally posted by DGFan
Because, it would be like advertising that your new computer sports 133 MHz SDRAM but the actual bus is 66 MHz.
Click to expand...
If by "actual bus" you mean the bus between the processor and the system controller, and the bus between the system controller and RAM did indeed run at 133 MHz, there would be nothing wrong with advertising it as such. Especially if you also specified (as Apple does) that the processor bus ran at 66 MHz.

If by "actual bus" you mean the bus between the system controller and RAM, then yes, that would be misleading.

It's interesting to note that the 700 MHz and 800 MHz G4 iMacs require PC133 RAM, even though both buses run at only 100 MHz (and Apple does specify that). There's an Apple technical note about it here.

Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?
Click to expand...
As someone else pointed out, there's no such thing as PC167 RAM (as far as we know). So if you want RAM that runs at a clock rate of 167 MHz, you have to go DDR, and that's what Apple has done.

Even if there were such a thing as PC167 RAM, the advantage of DDR RAM is that other parts of the system besides the processor are trying to access RAM as well (the fastest of those being PCI and AGP devices). Thing is, the processor is probably trying to access things other than RAM too, so the processor bus is again a bottleneck. The bottom line is that the best architecture would have DDR and otherwise fast buses all over the place, like the PMG5's, but that simply isn't possible with the current G4s.

WM
 
Originally posted by hippycowboy
Newbie here (to the forum, not to the OS). Just bought a 12" on Friday. Absolutely could not wait any longer. Got the 12" instead of 15" because I knew (assumed) newer one is around the corner in at least under 6 weeks. I'm actually loving the size of it, but am wondering if anyone has info on whether the following will be updated in the 12"?
Faster video card? Ability to support digital monitor via ADC or DVI connector? More max RAM, up to 1GB perhaps? New, non iBook enclosure. I realize this is a forum on rumor/conjecture so don't flame me, just fantasizing how fast I can put this baby up on ebay!😉
Click to expand...
Where would a DVI connector fit, though? And what's wrong with an iBook-style case? It's a proven layout for fitting a lot of features in a small package (over two years old, in fact), so why bother re-engineering it? If it ain't broke...

As for over 1 GB of RAM, the 12" PowerBook does in fact support 1152 MB of RAM--you need a 1 GB PC2100 SO-DIMM. I don't know if they exist, or how much they cost (probably a lot) if they do.

I too am hoping for faster video cards across the board. I've been waiting so long...need a 15" (actually it's for my dad)...

HTH
WM
 
Fresh Powerbook rumours

Yeah... Whatever..

THE SKY IS FALLING!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

Truly, I want to beleive. However...🙄
 
eventho i'd like to have a new G4 powerbook i just purchased the current 1ghz model...im happy with my purchase and i dont see a major reason to get rid of it...it's still a good reliable machine
 
Originally posted by barkmonster
The clockspeeds seem suspect or apple are deliberately crippling them.

With the 200Mhz FSB (it can also run at 167Mhz), the new G4 should have clockspeeds in increments of 0.1Ghz assuming apple want to get the most out of the performance. I'd be more interested to see what they're doing with the chipset than what cpu speeds they're using.

It should use DDR400 and support 8 x AGP at the very least. They need to improve the powermanagement to the level where it's competitive with the battery life of Centrino laptops.
Click to expand...
Yeah, something is definitely up with the processor speeds. I tend to agree with cc bcc, that they rounded strangely. I don't think there's any way we'll see a bus over 200 MHz.

DDR400 is almost certain with a 200 MHz FSB, of course; 8x AGP would probably require a redesign of the system controller (although a 200 MHz bus might too), but what would the benefit be? At best we'll see a Radeon 9600 Mobility for the GPU, and I'm not sure that it would see any benefit from 8x compared to 4x.

WM
 
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)
 
Originally posted by arvidvdb

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?
Click to expand...

That's exactly why I'm waiting for a new Powerbook.
 
Originally posted by arvidvdb
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)
Click to expand...

It really all depends on what you're studying. Where I went to school (Virginia Tech), the art/graphic design departments require Mac. It may not be what they need now, starting as freshman, but if you're going to spend >$2000 on a laptop, you want to ensure it will last all 4 years doing whatever you plan to do in your major.
 
Originally posted by Lord Bodak
It may not be what they need now, starting as freshman, but if you're going to spend >$2000 on a laptop, you want to ensure it will last all 4 years doing whatever you plan to do in your major.
Click to expand...

Mkay,

but do you really think in four years time it will make a lot of difference if you bought a 1 gHz G4 or if you waited for a 1.2 ?

cheers
 
update thoughts

Well, I personally am excited about the possibility of even an updated G4 Powerbook. I would have accepted even a 15 inch brought up to date equal to the 17 inch, but I realize that is not Apple's way. If they do something, they do it well.
I will be a college student this year (one who uses movie and music editing software) and being the geek that I am, I talked by Dad into buying a "refreshed" 12in Al PB, temporarily for me (until the 15 inch is updated) and then for him. I realize not all students can do this, but its an idea. I have the unfortunate problem of bad timing (bought new iPod 2 weeks before new ones were released) and I didn't want to risk anything, though I don't start school until mid-September.
To all those who don't like the idea of updating the G4 PB and want their G5s, that will be a long time, and a major redesign of the chip, later. The G5 has 9 fans. If you have felt a G4 PB, they aren't exactly cool as it is. Apple can't afford to wait that long before a PB update.
 
Originally posted by arvidvdb
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)
Click to expand...

streaming real-time interactive 3-Dimensional porn in digital 5.1 sound . . . it excels quite well on alti-vec enabled cpu's and i'm sure performance would benefit greatly from an improved system bus. a 9600m? wow, imagine all those smooth rendered polygons . . .
man, that would scream on a dual g5!! i can't wait!
did i hit all the buzzwords?

-cero
 
Originally posted by arvidvdb
but do you really think in four years time it will make a lot of difference if you bought a 1 gHz G4 or if you waited for a 1.2 ?
Click to expand...

Generally no. It's more the supporting specs. I.E., if you are buying a 12", the current 867MHz with no L3 cache would be seriously outperformed by a 1 GHz with L3 cache.

If you want a 15", then the lack of Airport Extreme may become an issue if you are moving big files and your college has 802.11g while you're there.

Although I think any of the current PowerBooks would be suitable, if you don't mind waiting it's good to wait. If you need it now, buy it now.

Like I said, I'm still saving my money so hopefully the upgrades will be out before I have the money. Otherwise, I will probably buy what's available.
 
I cant speak for all the kids going back to school (college) wanting a new powerbook before we go back but personally Im going to be a computer science major so I DO need the powerbook for the programs Im going to need to use.
 
wait and see

Okay, with all the speculation about cpu and ram etc, I wonder what they will look like, since they seem to redo the entire line, (with the 15" receiving the biggest cosmetic overhaul)I wonder if there will be any small detail changes to make them look a bit , well 'G5 ish?

Not that it is needed, the AL models are gorgeous, particulary the 17" is a stunner.

How about backlit keyboards in all designs?

Oh and what about Panther, is that backwards compatible with 32 bit systems, as these PB's wont be 64 bit yet.🙂

There, said my say. You again.😉
 
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