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Powerbook Rumors Again
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Re: Re: Re: wait and see
Semagol (sp?) by all appearances is using and extended address space, what Panther is doing is up in the air at the moment. I kinda wish that Apple would come clean on what Panther will be implementing. The reality is that the system is using more than 32 bits of address lines so it is more that a 32 bit machine.
I beg to differ with you on the extended addressing used in Windows and Linux, some time ago I did see an add for a system touting extended addressing. If a machine supports 36 bit addressing then it is reasonable to claim that. Now the claim is very specific, it does not imply anything other than 32 bit hardware.
The issue with the G5 is a bit differrent. Here you have a 64 bit CPU that is mapping 32 bit processes in a memory area greater than 32 bits addressable. So there can be an arguement made that the system is more than 32 bits but not yet fully 64 bits. "Semi" may not be an accurate way to describe the facility but it is not that bad either. Until we have a better understanding of what Panther will be doing "semi" is as good as anything else. I will have to dig into this a bit farther but I don't think what Apple is doing is comparable to extended addressing.
Dave
Semagol (sp?) by all appearances is using and extended address space, what Panther is doing is up in the air at the moment. I kinda wish that Apple would come clean on what Panther will be implementing. The reality is that the system is using more than 32 bits of address lines so it is more that a 32 bit machine.
I beg to differ with you on the extended addressing used in Windows and Linux, some time ago I did see an add for a system touting extended addressing. If a machine supports 36 bit addressing then it is reasonable to claim that. Now the claim is very specific, it does not imply anything other than 32 bit hardware.
The issue with the G5 is a bit differrent. Here you have a 64 bit CPU that is mapping 32 bit processes in a memory area greater than 32 bits addressable. So there can be an arguement made that the system is more than 32 bits but not yet fully 64 bits. "Semi" may not be an accurate way to describe the facility but it is not that bad either. Until we have a better understanding of what Panther will be doing "semi" is as good as anything else. I will have to dig into this a bit farther but I don't think what Apple is doing is comparable to extended addressing.
Dave
True
I'm with you, I need that 15" al p-book for graphic design classes in the fall. I'm getting sick of all these unreliable rumors but that sleek new machine will be worth the wait, methinks.
I'm with you, I need that 15" al p-book for graphic design classes in the fall. I'm getting sick of all these unreliable rumors but that sleek new machine will be worth the wait, methinks.
Re: chip type
Well some suspect that they will have the 7457, most of us have no idea. Hell some of us are in New York, not exactly the center of the computer world.
There are several reasons to suspect that the 7457 will be used in some PowerBooks. One is the power usage, the G5 comes with a bunch of power hungry support chips which needs to be addressed. By the way I'm sure Apple is addressing that issue right now.
Another issue is performance, slowing a G5 system down enough to function in a laptop might not give us a performance advantage over an up rated G4.
I suspect that it will be awhile until we see a 3GHz G5 PowerBook, but yes when it arrives the old machines will seem sluggish. But that would be the case now id Apple came out with a significantly improved PowerBook.
One should not underestimate the G4, it is good processor design stuck in a poor manufacturing house. A couple of improvements will allow it to remain competitive for a long time. The things that the G5 does well are valid for a laptop, but every indication at the moment is that the G5 would also be disadvantaged due to power usage. Mind you I'm not talking about the G5 descreetly but the system as a whole. The G5 would need a "Laptop" chipset, it is a bit up in the air as to where Apple stands with this chipset.
My suspicion is that Apple will for a while have two sets of PowerBooks available. One will be powered by a G4 the other by a G5. The caveat is that this is all bull and Apple could have a chip set to go that is outstanding in its power usage for the G5.
Dave
Well some suspect that they will have the 7457, most of us have no idea. Hell some of us are in New York, not exactly the center of the computer world.
There are several reasons to suspect that the 7457 will be used in some PowerBooks. One is the power usage, the G5 comes with a bunch of power hungry support chips which needs to be addressed. By the way I'm sure Apple is addressing that issue right now.
Another issue is performance, slowing a G5 system down enough to function in a laptop might not give us a performance advantage over an up rated G4.
I suspect that it will be awhile until we see a 3GHz G5 PowerBook, but yes when it arrives the old machines will seem sluggish. But that would be the case now id Apple came out with a significantly improved PowerBook.
One should not underestimate the G4, it is good processor design stuck in a poor manufacturing house. A couple of improvements will allow it to remain competitive for a long time. The things that the G5 does well are valid for a laptop, but every indication at the moment is that the G5 would also be disadvantaged due to power usage. Mind you I'm not talking about the G5 descreetly but the system as a whole. The G5 would need a "Laptop" chipset, it is a bit up in the air as to where Apple stands with this chipset.
My suspicion is that Apple will for a while have two sets of PowerBooks available. One will be powered by a G4 the other by a G5. The caveat is that this is all bull and Apple could have a chip set to go that is outstanding in its power usage for the G5.
Dave
Re: Why Apple may have decided to not put a G5 in PowerBooks until Jan 2004
You are making an assumption that a G5 at 1.2 GHZ will dramticaly out perform a G4 at the same speed or slightly faster. There is reason to believe that this isn't the case. Further is motorola has the new G4's running at 1.6 GHz than I don't see the G5 being competitive in a laptop at all. At least in the sense of battery run time which is one of Apples bigger selling points.
The biggest reason I can see for the G5 in a laptop is greater than 32 bit memory addressing. You might also get better floating point operation. Do remember thought that you slow down the 970's I/O bus to go to 1.2 GHz, a slow memory bus would hurt this processor big time. My thinking is that the only way that a G5 would be practical in a laptop would be to introduce it with a speed of at least 1.6 GHz.
Dave
You are making an assumption that a G5 at 1.2 GHZ will dramticaly out perform a G4 at the same speed or slightly faster. There is reason to believe that this isn't the case. Further is motorola has the new G4's running at 1.6 GHz than I don't see the G5 being competitive in a laptop at all. At least in the sense of battery run time which is one of Apples bigger selling points.
The biggest reason I can see for the G5 in a laptop is greater than 32 bit memory addressing. You might also get better floating point operation. Do remember thought that you slow down the 970's I/O bus to go to 1.2 GHz, a slow memory bus would hurt this processor big time. My thinking is that the only way that a G5 would be practical in a laptop would be to introduce it with a speed of at least 1.6 GHz.
Dave
jamdr
macrumors 6502a
Current G4 a better deal?
Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy a CURRENT PowerBook G4, such as a 15" 1Ghz? Think about it. You are getting all of the added features of a high-end 15", like the airport card, the extra RAM and video memory, a bigger hard drive, and most importantly the SuperDrive, but you would only be paying $2300 if you are a student. Next month, that $2300 is going to buy you the new lower-end PowerBook 15", which may have a slightly faster processor, probably at 1.1Ghz, but won't include airport or the SuperDrive, or anywhere near as much memory. Is that really worth it? That airport card is $100, the extra memory is probably another $100, and you wouldn't be able to burn DVDs. The only thing you'd get for waiting is an imperceptible speed increase. At this point, and for the next few years, airport extreme and FireWire 800 offer no real advantage over their predecessors because nothing takes advantage of them. I say, buy up those 1Ghz TiBook before they disappear!
Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy a CURRENT PowerBook G4, such as a 15" 1Ghz? Think about it. You are getting all of the added features of a high-end 15", like the airport card, the extra RAM and video memory, a bigger hard drive, and most importantly the SuperDrive, but you would only be paying $2300 if you are a student. Next month, that $2300 is going to buy you the new lower-end PowerBook 15", which may have a slightly faster processor, probably at 1.1Ghz, but won't include airport or the SuperDrive, or anywhere near as much memory. Is that really worth it? That airport card is $100, the extra memory is probably another $100, and you wouldn't be able to burn DVDs. The only thing you'd get for waiting is an imperceptible speed increase. At this point, and for the next few years, airport extreme and FireWire 800 offer no real advantage over their predecessors because nothing takes advantage of them. I say, buy up those 1Ghz TiBook before they disappear!
Analog Kid
macrumors G3
[edit:] ignore this rant and read Wizard's posts... He was much calmer in his delivery...
I'm going to keep repeating this until the misinformation dies or someone proves me wrong:
The G5 system is not lower power than the current G4 and certainly not lower power than the shrunk G4 described in this rumor thread.
There were early rumors that the .13µm G5 CPU chip may pull comparable power to the .18µm G4 CPU chip but even those are in question now.
And that doesn't even touch on the system ASIC running wide, near GHz busses or the faster memories.
Yes, you could scale those down a bit, but the G5 has no L3 cache (and no support for one), so it would make the G4 bottleneck look trivial.
Now the G4 has been shrunk to .13µm with other process enhancements to reduce power consumption.
We are seeing Apple return to a normal productline where the power supply and heat dissipation capabilities of a desktop will allow it to run faster CPUs than the somewhat compromised performance of even "desktop replacement" laptops.
We won't see a G5 in a laptop at least until it gets shrunk and pulls the memory controller inside, and I'd guess they need to make more changes than that to the internal processing units and possibly add an L3 cache.
I'm not much of a Mot fan, but the G4 is a pretty darn good portable CPU. I think we'll see them in use for a while. For the last year or more we've been running desktops based on laptop processors-- not the other way around.
My main reason for repeating this point over and over is I get the feeling that people are setting unrealistic expectations for the Powerbook line and they're too hung up on the G5 moniker.
I'm going to keep repeating this until the misinformation dies or someone proves me wrong:
The G5 system is not lower power than the current G4 and certainly not lower power than the shrunk G4 described in this rumor thread.
There were early rumors that the .13µm G5 CPU chip may pull comparable power to the .18µm G4 CPU chip but even those are in question now.
And that doesn't even touch on the system ASIC running wide, near GHz busses or the faster memories.
Yes, you could scale those down a bit, but the G5 has no L3 cache (and no support for one), so it would make the G4 bottleneck look trivial.
Now the G4 has been shrunk to .13µm with other process enhancements to reduce power consumption.
We are seeing Apple return to a normal productline where the power supply and heat dissipation capabilities of a desktop will allow it to run faster CPUs than the somewhat compromised performance of even "desktop replacement" laptops.
We won't see a G5 in a laptop at least until it gets shrunk and pulls the memory controller inside, and I'd guess they need to make more changes than that to the internal processing units and possibly add an L3 cache.
I'm not much of a Mot fan, but the G4 is a pretty darn good portable CPU. I think we'll see them in use for a while. For the last year or more we've been running desktops based on laptop processors-- not the other way around.
My main reason for repeating this point over and over is I get the feeling that people are setting unrealistic expectations for the Powerbook line and they're too hung up on the G5 moniker.
jbomber
macrumors 6502a
Yeah. A lot of people are trying to make light of this, but on this board alone there are scores of students who seem to be holding out as long as they can for Apple to put out a machine which is woefully overdue. When it doesn't come out in the next 2 weeks or so, Apple will see the error of its ways with further slumping sales as those would-be buyers end up with other machines.
Analog Kid
macrumors G3
Re: Re: Why Apple may have decided to not put a G5 in PowerBooks until Jan 2004
Do you think a laptop would benefit much from 64bit memory addressing? It's gonna be a while before you can pack 8GB into a laptop...
And the memory is pretty power hungry itself.
Maybe in the 17"...
Do you think a laptop would benefit much from 64bit memory addressing? It's gonna be a while before you can pack 8GB into a laptop...
And the memory is pretty power hungry itself.
Maybe in the 17"...
Re: Re: Motorola already has G4s in production
If Motorola is going to make a dual-cpu G4 chip, then it is intended for Apple. If Apple only uses it in portables or a few desktops, then it is much less likely that Motorola would be interested in making it due to a lower return on investment.
Easy, the G4 costs a lot less than the G5. If you'll notice Dell still sells a Pentium III equipped server. If people want to buy it, then Apple will make it. It's as simple as that.
It's about price/performance for servers and not just performance. If it was just about performance then UNIX servers would be the vast majority of servers sales. As it is, 1-2 processor Xeon and Pentium servers are 90% of total server sales.
If Motorola makes a dual-cpu G4 chip then Apple could put 4 G4s in a 1U server box quite easily. That would be a very competitive performance/price server.
I don't know what Apple intends to do with a dual-cpu G4 chip, but to assume that nothing but a G5 processor in a server will do is simply ludicrous. That simply goes against what the vast majority of server sales are right now.
I doubt that Apple wants to spread the G5 throughout the entire Mac line anytime soon. That would make the much higher prices of the pro models less desirable. This could change when the G5 is moved to a smaller process and Apple has a wider range of speeds for the G5, but then again that looks less likely since Motorola has announced plans to make a dual-cpu G4. There really is no customer for a dual-cpu G4 outside of Apple simply because a dual-core G4 would use too much watts for the embedded market.
If Motorola is going to make a dual-cpu G4 chip, then it is intended for Apple. If Apple only uses it in portables or a few desktops, then it is much less likely that Motorola would be interested in making it due to a lower return on investment.
Easy, the G4 costs a lot less than the G5. If you'll notice Dell still sells a Pentium III equipped server. If people want to buy it, then Apple will make it. It's as simple as that.
It's about price/performance for servers and not just performance. If it was just about performance then UNIX servers would be the vast majority of servers sales. As it is, 1-2 processor Xeon and Pentium servers are 90% of total server sales.
If Motorola makes a dual-cpu G4 chip then Apple could put 4 G4s in a 1U server box quite easily. That would be a very competitive performance/price server.
I don't know what Apple intends to do with a dual-cpu G4 chip, but to assume that nothing but a G5 processor in a server will do is simply ludicrous. That simply goes against what the vast majority of server sales are right now.
I doubt that Apple wants to spread the G5 throughout the entire Mac line anytime soon. That would make the much higher prices of the pro models less desirable. This could change when the G5 is moved to a smaller process and Apple has a wider range of speeds for the G5, but then again that looks less likely since Motorola has announced plans to make a dual-cpu G4. There really is no customer for a dual-cpu G4 outside of Apple simply because a dual-core G4 would use too much watts for the embedded market.
jbomber
macrumors 6502a
how many ways can one say it?
1) no G5s in the laptop line for a very long time.
2) apple's not throwing away the G4 for a very long time.
3) aluminum powerbooks will never see the light of day. 🙂 (ok, i made that one up, but it really feels like it. keep teasing me apple...)
1) no G5s in the laptop line for a very long time.
2) apple's not throwing away the G4 for a very long time.
3) aluminum powerbooks will never see the light of day. 🙂 (ok, i made that one up, but it really feels like it. keep teasing me apple...)
Re: Re: Why Apple may have decided to not put a G5 in PowerBooks until Jan 2004
No I'm not. It's obvious that most people are reacting to the G5 like it is several times faster than a G4. Apple would likely be able to pickup on that. It's very likely that a G5 will replace a G4 in PowerBooks as soon as January because of the mystic that is building for the G5.
Apple can get a 1.33 GHz 130-nm G4 in a notebook computer quite easily. The G5 on a 130-nm process is probably limited to 1.2 GHz for notebook use.
When the G5 and G4 move to the smaller 90-nm process in the middle of 2004, then a G4 will again go to a higher frequency than the G5 for the same watt use. But, it's doubtful that Apple will continue to use a G4 for the PowerBook line due to Apple wanting to charge a premium over the consumer lines.
The biggest reasons for putting a G5 in a laptop are Mac users perceptions that it is a billion times faster than those outdaed, pokey G4s from that horrible Motorola company and also Apple needs something to set the PowerBook line apart from the consumer models so that they can charge a much higher price.
Motorola is going to make some dramatic improvements to the G4s I/O bus and chip interconnects in the next year, but it won't effect the fact that the vast majority of Mac users believe that the G5 is God's gift to Appledom.
I personally believe that Apple will try to hold the frequency of the G4 in a PowerBook to 1.33 GHz so that when the G5 is put into a PowerBook at 1.2 GHz in January it won't seem like a big drop in frequency.
Also if the PowerBooks start at 1.1 GHz with a 166 Ghz bus in August, then that allows the iBooks to move to 1 GHz and perhaps a 200 MHz bus. Adding a L3 cache to the lowend PowerBook would probably offset the faster bus speed of the iBooks in most people's eyes.
I'm betting 1.2 GHz G5 in a PowerBook in January and then a update when the G5 moves to a smaller process size about six months later. It really doesn't matter how fast the G5 is compared to a G4 at a given frequency. The fact is people are drolling over the G5 and will pay for it in a PowerBook no matter what speed it runs at.
No I'm not. It's obvious that most people are reacting to the G5 like it is several times faster than a G4. Apple would likely be able to pickup on that. It's very likely that a G5 will replace a G4 in PowerBooks as soon as January because of the mystic that is building for the G5.
Apple can get a 1.33 GHz 130-nm G4 in a notebook computer quite easily. The G5 on a 130-nm process is probably limited to 1.2 GHz for notebook use.
When the G5 and G4 move to the smaller 90-nm process in the middle of 2004, then a G4 will again go to a higher frequency than the G5 for the same watt use. But, it's doubtful that Apple will continue to use a G4 for the PowerBook line due to Apple wanting to charge a premium over the consumer lines.
The biggest reasons for putting a G5 in a laptop are Mac users perceptions that it is a billion times faster than those outdaed, pokey G4s from that horrible Motorola company and also Apple needs something to set the PowerBook line apart from the consumer models so that they can charge a much higher price.
Motorola is going to make some dramatic improvements to the G4s I/O bus and chip interconnects in the next year, but it won't effect the fact that the vast majority of Mac users believe that the G5 is God's gift to Appledom.
I personally believe that Apple will try to hold the frequency of the G4 in a PowerBook to 1.33 GHz so that when the G5 is put into a PowerBook at 1.2 GHz in January it won't seem like a big drop in frequency.
Also if the PowerBooks start at 1.1 GHz with a 166 Ghz bus in August, then that allows the iBooks to move to 1 GHz and perhaps a 200 MHz bus. Adding a L3 cache to the lowend PowerBook would probably offset the faster bus speed of the iBooks in most people's eyes.
I'm betting 1.2 GHz G5 in a PowerBook in January and then a update when the G5 moves to a smaller process size about six months later. It really doesn't matter how fast the G5 is compared to a G4 at a given frequency. The fact is people are drolling over the G5 and will pay for it in a PowerBook no matter what speed it runs at.
Re: Re: Fake DDR support
What is up with Motorola? DDR-memory have been available and standard in computers now for how long? That's right. Years! And yet they won't bother implementing proper support for it. Unbelievable. If Motorola releases that processor with an outdated non-DDR-supported FSB then I am not buying a Powerbook as long as there is still a Motorolean processor in it. It certainly looks as though I won't be switching to a Mac anytime soon...
What is up with Motorola? DDR-memory have been available and standard in computers now for how long? That's right. Years! And yet they won't bother implementing proper support for it. Unbelievable. If Motorola releases that processor with an outdated non-DDR-supported FSB then I am not buying a Powerbook as long as there is still a Motorolean processor in it. It certainly looks as though I won't be switching to a Mac anytime soon...
Re: Re: Re: Motorola already has G4s in production
Is the price confirmed? I have read here more than once that the 970 was *less* expensive than the G4. The 970s can't cost significantly more or else the new machines would be at higher prices.
Umm...you can put Unix on a Xeon just fine. Maybe you want to clarify that a bit. Are we talking about Sparcs and Alphas, that is, big chips with proprietary Unixes? Yes, you want the best performance and stability you can get *at your pricepoint*. But, you are not going to run a mission-critical Oracle DB for a multi-million dollar company on some p3 servers because you can get them for less than an Ultrasparc.
Servers like bandwidth and the G5 has a deal more of it than the G4. Also note that G5s get a greater boost from dual processors. The estimates I've read are G5 gaining 90% performance from adding a second proc while the G4 gains 40%. (This is off the cuff AND uncited, so please don't tar and feather me.) Bandwidth and better multi-processor gains = smarter choice for a server box. BUT, that assumes that reasonable prices on 970s from IBM is true.
And of course you are correct, statements of absolute necessity are NEVER, EVER wise. 🙂
Is the price confirmed? I have read here more than once that the 970 was *less* expensive than the G4. The 970s can't cost significantly more or else the new machines would be at higher prices.
Umm...you can put Unix on a Xeon just fine. Maybe you want to clarify that a bit. Are we talking about Sparcs and Alphas, that is, big chips with proprietary Unixes? Yes, you want the best performance and stability you can get *at your pricepoint*. But, you are not going to run a mission-critical Oracle DB for a multi-million dollar company on some p3 servers because you can get them for less than an Ultrasparc.
Servers like bandwidth and the G5 has a deal more of it than the G4. Also note that G5s get a greater boost from dual processors. The estimates I've read are G5 gaining 90% performance from adding a second proc while the G4 gains 40%. (This is off the cuff AND uncited, so please don't tar and feather me.) Bandwidth and better multi-processor gains = smarter choice for a server box. BUT, that assumes that reasonable prices on 970s from IBM is true.
And of course you are correct, statements of absolute necessity are NEVER, EVER wise. 🙂
CrackedButter
macrumors 68040
Faster, sooner, now is all i can say.
Its sad that they are taking their time on these updates while x86 laptops are getting more and more advanced each week.
Its sad that they are taking their time on these updates while x86 laptops are getting more and more advanced each week.
I am needing to make an informed decision before school, and was wondering if you more knowledable folks could help me out.
What the chances are of any update coming before the end of August and what price drops might be experienced on the current 12" when this update comes about?
Thanks
What the chances are of any update coming before the end of August and what price drops might be experienced on the current 12" when this update comes about?
Thanks
slightly
macrumors regular
Students with top of the line *PowerBooks*?!
This must be a new definition of the word "student" that I wasn't previously aware of. When the fastest possible PowerBook model becomes a mandatory purchase for students, I'll eat my words. Until then, you're *students*. Spend your money on beer and loose women like we had to.
There are people in here complaining that, unless Apple stops disrespecting them and gives them what they demand before the first week of college, they'll up and buy a Dell. Well:
1. Apple is not "disrespecting" you. You've got yourselves worked up about a *rumour*, not a promise from Apple, and because Apple didn't deliver on it, you're getting snitty.
2. Not getting a Mac in a certain week seems a very strange reason to switch. Enjoy your Windows world for the next four years, students.
3. Take it from someone who's *been* to college. Nobody is going to sneer at you, beat you up, call you names, dock your grades, muss up your hair, give you a wedgie, or otherwise put you into the loser group just because you don't have the top-of-the-line smells-like-new 10-second-old PowerBook. If you already own a computer (which, by the sounds of things, you do), take that. Use it for a week or so, and then, if Apple brings out a laptop that you somehow have the disposable income for, buy one.
If you "only" have a desktop, and need something to take notes with for a few days, can I recommend pen and paper? They're highly portable, with a great clean user interface, and built-in handwriting recognition. I can't guarantee DDR support though.
I also refer the right honourable gentlemen to the very first post I made on these forums.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22177
Matt
This must be a new definition of the word "student" that I wasn't previously aware of. When the fastest possible PowerBook model becomes a mandatory purchase for students, I'll eat my words. Until then, you're *students*. Spend your money on beer and loose women like we had to.
There are people in here complaining that, unless Apple stops disrespecting them and gives them what they demand before the first week of college, they'll up and buy a Dell. Well:
1. Apple is not "disrespecting" you. You've got yourselves worked up about a *rumour*, not a promise from Apple, and because Apple didn't deliver on it, you're getting snitty.
2. Not getting a Mac in a certain week seems a very strange reason to switch. Enjoy your Windows world for the next four years, students.
3. Take it from someone who's *been* to college. Nobody is going to sneer at you, beat you up, call you names, dock your grades, muss up your hair, give you a wedgie, or otherwise put you into the loser group just because you don't have the top-of-the-line smells-like-new 10-second-old PowerBook. If you already own a computer (which, by the sounds of things, you do), take that. Use it for a week or so, and then, if Apple brings out a laptop that you somehow have the disposable income for, buy one.
If you "only" have a desktop, and need something to take notes with for a few days, can I recommend pen and paper? They're highly portable, with a great clean user interface, and built-in handwriting recognition. I can't guarantee DDR support though.
I also refer the right honourable gentlemen to the very first post I made on these forums.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22177
Matt
iBooks
According to MacBidouille, Apple is wrestling with the problem of what to do with the iBooks and is seriously considering letting them go... ending all G3 lines. The 12" PB would be the entry level laptop. posted today.
Also they claim that FWB has fired its CEO and that the new CEO is taking a hard look at recent claims by FWB.. hinting at the RealPC claims, I guess. No mention of it yet on FWB website.
According to MacBidouille, Apple is wrestling with the problem of what to do with the iBooks and is seriously considering letting them go... ending all G3 lines. The 12" PB would be the entry level laptop. posted today.
Also they claim that FWB has fired its CEO and that the new CEO is taking a hard look at recent claims by FWB.. hinting at the RealPC claims, I guess. No mention of it yet on FWB website.
Re: Re: Re: Why Apple may have decided to not put a G5 in PowerBooks until Jan 2004
Well that is a good question. I'm sure that there are people that could make use of larger memory systems. That doesn't mean 8GB, even a fully addressable range of 4GB would help. That would be easly done with a 64 bit processor, I'm not sure if it could be done with a G4.
Yes it would be power hungry, but not nearly as much as paging to disk. Near term the largest memory system we are likely to have on a laptop would be 2GB, last I knew even this was not a possibility on the laptops currently in production. Please understand though that I just recently got into the market, so some of my information on the current Powerbooks is stale.
dave
Well that is a good question. I'm sure that there are people that could make use of larger memory systems. That doesn't mean 8GB, even a fully addressable range of 4GB would help. That would be easly done with a 64 bit processor, I'm not sure if it could be done with a G4.
Yes it would be power hungry, but not nearly as much as paging to disk. Near term the largest memory system we are likely to have on a laptop would be 2GB, last I knew even this was not a possibility on the laptops currently in production. Please understand though that I just recently got into the market, so some of my information on the current Powerbooks is stale.
dave
Why do you think this is certain? As many others in this thread have already said, a 200 mhz. FSB has no way of fully utilizing DDR400 memory, let alone DDR333 memory. Why wouldn't Apple just use DDR333 memory instead? There's no way a small FSB of 200 could fully utilize it anyway.
RichP
macrumors 68000
Re: Students with top of the line *PowerBooks*?!
😀 ROTFL! 😀
The rumormill is making none of us think straight. People threaten Apple with Dell, but Dell updates and changes things every week, and I could be wrong, but if were looking to PC rumors, we would have the same information, or lack thereof, regarding what will be the new machine on the block. We know motorola has newer G4s, and they are being delivered Q3; they are obviously destined for Apple, and destined to go into powerbooks. There are no suprises here, we know whats coming, we just dont know the exact hour. However, as each week passes, we get closer to something happening (thats a good master-of-the-obvious statement)
😀 ROTFL! 😀
The rumormill is making none of us think straight. People threaten Apple with Dell, but Dell updates and changes things every week, and I could be wrong, but if were looking to PC rumors, we would have the same information, or lack thereof, regarding what will be the new machine on the block. We know motorola has newer G4s, and they are being delivered Q3; they are obviously destined for Apple, and destined to go into powerbooks. There are no suprises here, we know whats coming, we just dont know the exact hour. However, as each week passes, we get closer to something happening (thats a good master-of-the-obvious statement)
Re: Re: Re: Fake DDR support
But there is one thing you should think about: If you want to have longer batter life, the speed of your front side bus has a direct correlation to the life of your battery. If you don't believe me, just read an article at Anandtech about the new Intel Centrino notebooks (you know, the low megahertz ones that start at 1.3ghz up to 1.6ghz). They have a variable speed FSB that actually dynamically lowers itself during periods of low CPU activity in order to save battery life.
On a desktop PC, sure give me all 800 mhz. or 1 ghz. FSB that you've got, but on a mobile PC, if you want any more than 2 hours of battery life, you might want to drop your FSB down to 167 or 200 mhz. just so you don't have to be tethered to a wall outlet all the time.
Cheers.
If you feel so strongly that this is one of those must have features, why not just wait until the G5 powerbooks are out next year and have proper PC3200 memory support?
But there is one thing you should think about: If you want to have longer batter life, the speed of your front side bus has a direct correlation to the life of your battery. If you don't believe me, just read an article at Anandtech about the new Intel Centrino notebooks (you know, the low megahertz ones that start at 1.3ghz up to 1.6ghz). They have a variable speed FSB that actually dynamically lowers itself during periods of low CPU activity in order to save battery life.
On a desktop PC, sure give me all 800 mhz. or 1 ghz. FSB that you've got, but on a mobile PC, if you want any more than 2 hours of battery life, you might want to drop your FSB down to 167 or 200 mhz. just so you don't have to be tethered to a wall outlet all the time.
Cheers.
Re: Re: Re: Why Apple may have decided to not put a G5 in PowerBooks until Jan 2004
It would not serve Apples interest to offer a castrated PowerBook line just so they can claim to have a 970 in it.
The reality is that higher integration on either processor is really where the future PowerBook processors need to go. Specifically a built in memory controller and PCI controller. These are the things that would drive design ins on future machines.
As a side note if anyone has read ARS's lastest bit of info on the G5, it is very apparent that Apple and IBM are investing alot of money and energy into follow on processors. The IBM reps specifically skirted questions related to more integrated G5's, so it is completely possible that portable optimized G5's are in the works. Speculation of course, but I really don't see a competitve G5 laptop with out high frequency operation.
January is a possibility, but I don't think that this would mean that the G4 PowerBooks would go away. Energy effiecent PowerBooks are one of Apples greatest selling features - long battery life does attrack customers.
Unless Apple and IBM a further along with enhanced 970's than suspected, I do not believe that that laptop will be a long lived model. It is likely to be a interim machine to hold the slot until a much better implementation can be produced. When that better implementation comes you will then see the G4 Powerbooks disappear.
Dave
We may very well see the 970's in laptops soon, but it if it happens it will be primarily for marketing reasons. I.E. explotation of the unknowing. There is no mystic for the G5, people are waiting patiently to get a handle on the performance of the systems, or at least they should be.
Apple is currently running G3's on their consumer line laptops. Even if they updated these to G4s at 1GHz they could easly distinquish the pro line via much faster G4s and better video sub systems.
It would not serve Apples interest to offer a castrated PowerBook line just so they can claim to have a 970 in it.
The G4 has never scalled well, that does not mean by any means that it is pokey. If motorola can deliver a much faster G4 then Apple will remain competitve with it. The G5 has everything it needs to go into a laptop, but we have not yet seen an indication that Apple has the supporting system ready to go. Providing a low power SYSTEM, is the key otherwise Apple is better off with the G4.
The reality is that higher integration on either processor is really where the future PowerBook processors need to go. Specifically a built in memory controller and PCI controller. These are the things that would drive design ins on future machines.
They may very well try to do something like this, but to be perfectly honest that is what drove customers away in the past. In a way though you are supporting my previous statements, that a G4 could easly outperform a G5 in a laptop.
As a side note if anyone has read ARS's lastest bit of info on the G5, it is very apparent that Apple and IBM are investing alot of money and energy into follow on processors. The IBM reps specifically skirted questions related to more integrated G5's, so it is completely possible that portable optimized G5's are in the works. Speculation of course, but I really don't see a competitve G5 laptop with out high frequency operation.
January is a possibility, but I don't think that this would mean that the G4 PowerBooks would go away. Energy effiecent PowerBooks are one of Apples greatest selling features - long battery life does attrack customers.
Unless Apple and IBM a further along with enhanced 970's than suspected, I do not believe that that laptop will be a long lived model. It is likely to be a interim machine to hold the slot until a much better implementation can be produced. When that better implementation comes you will then see the G4 Powerbooks disappear.
Dave
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
ppc970 could fill role of desktop P4 laptops
You're a bit harsh here.
The Pentium 4 laptops with the full-power desktop chips are big, heavy, and have relatively short battery life.
They're also selling very well.
Some people value power over portability. They aren't the road warriors who spend their time in airports, they're people who carry a machine back and forth between the office and home.
They're people who want to hide the computer at home, yet have a full-power system. (A P4 laptop in the bookshelf or in a drawer has more minimalist elegance than any flavor of desktop - even one that looks like a cross between a desklamp and a makeup mirror.)
Apple could address this market with a G5 laptop today.
You're a bit harsh here.
The Pentium 4 laptops with the full-power desktop chips are big, heavy, and have relatively short battery life.
They're also selling very well.
Some people value power over portability. They aren't the road warriors who spend their time in airports, they're people who carry a machine back and forth between the office and home.
They're people who want to hide the computer at home, yet have a full-power system. (A P4 laptop in the bookshelf or in a drawer has more minimalist elegance than any flavor of desktop - even one that looks like a cross between a desklamp and a makeup mirror.)
Apple could address this market with a G5 laptop today.