PowerFox Web Browser - A brand new browser for PowerPC (Beta)

[Smithwick’s]

Damn thats a shame. I wont keep clogging up this thread. Do you mind if i DM you and get more info the errors. Ill start a new thread if there are any fixes I can do for G4. I can see my self ordering one on ebay tmmra lol
G5 imac only for now then sorry guys!

Sure thing! You might reach out to @thewireless or Cameron Kaiser and see if this boils down to the same reason AquaFox (and other TFF derivatives) are packaged based on CPU type. Maybe there's some peculiarity there, although Powerfox works in Leopard and Snow Leopard on both G4s and G5s, so maybe it's something more Tiger-specific? Hmm... I'll test your build on my PMG5 running Tiger later.

 

[barracuda156]

Damn thats a shame. I wont keep clogging up this thread. Do you mind if i DM you and get more info the errors. Ill start a new thread if there are any fixes I can do for G4. I can see my self ordering one on ebay tmmra lol

G5 imac only for now then sorry guys!

It looks like the error mentioned by @Jazzzny

Also, it would be helpful to carry such discussions on GitHub (or another public platform of choice), since others may benefit from it – or help you with an issue.

 

[Caleb Hauge]

Anybody know why HTML5 media performs so much better on PowerFox than TFF? TFF used modified codecs optimized for AltiVec, and I assume PowerFox doesn’t, so you’d think it’d be better on TFF. But it’s actually significantly better on PowerFox.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Anybody know why HTML5 media performs so much better on PowerFox than TFF? TFF used modified codecs optimized for AltiVec, and I assume PowerFox doesn’t, so you’d think it’d be better on TFF. But it’s actually significantly better on PowerFox.

I think PowerFox is packing some nifty new (for PPC) codecs that are web optimised.

 

[Jazzzny]

Anybody know why HTML5 media performs so much better on PowerFox than TFF? TFF used modified codecs optimized for AltiVec, and I assume PowerFox doesn’t, so you’d think it’d be better on TFF. But it’s actually significantly better on PowerFox.

PowerFox has optimized AltiVec code in VP8/VP9/H264.

 

[Caleb Hauge]

PowerFox has optimized AltiVec code in VP8/VP9/H264.

Is it the same as TFF? If not, is there a way to transfer it to TFF and use it there? Would love to have the media performance of PowerFox + JIT of TFF on my 10.4 machines.

 

[Jazzzny]

No, PowerFox has a much newer and completely different media library. TFF uses libvpx, and we use libavcodec.

It is simply not worth the effort to port these changes to a dead codebase.

 

[danupsher]

PowerFox has optimized AltiVec code in VP8/VP9/H264.

Is this why you target g4 and g5 and not g3?

 

[Smithwick’s]

Happy to report that v3.0 works like a charm on my PMG5 (YouTube as an exception, despite fiddling with user agents). Excellent work.
EDIT: I'll move all the machfox talk to your new thread so as not to take up space for powerfox. I'm sure everyone understands the excitement, though! Two huge breakthroughs for PPC Macs, and those are hard to come by these days.

 

[Jazzzny]

Is this why you target g4 and g5 and not g3?

The PowerPC G3 can't run Leopard, no reason to target it without Tiger support.

 

[kencu]

A modern browser running on my iMac Late 2006 (Yes, i know it's Intel) on Tiger would be a dream come true. The last time i was able to browse the web on Tiger without issues was back in 2013.

TenFourFox Intel worked OK for a while on Tiger/Leopard/SnowLeopard Intel, until async/await became commonly used on websites. It still works OK for many uses, not all.

I was building and uploading it to the TFF sourceforge site for a while, and there are still prebuilt versions here:

TenFourFox - Browse /unstable/contrib at SourceForge.net

Mozilla for Power Macintosh

sourceforge.net

but for the past few years after Cameron shut down, I just built it for my own use from the GitHub repo.

 

[Jazzzny]

The problem with Intel Tiger is that Clang doesn't work there, and the Apple cctools assembler for x86 is too old to parse much of the Intel assembly in the codebase. This means that I have to disable the optimized Intel assembly, which makes parts of the browser (mainly media playback) much much slower. I initially did this for the 10.5 Intel build before I released it, but I was eventually able to get Clang working for the optimized code. Genuinely nobody should be running Intel 10.4, the resources to make that build happen are not justified.

 

[atarixle]

One advantace of Leopard over Tiger I recently noticed: When running the Atari800 emulator on Tiger, the fans of my iMac G5 were spinning up high. On Leopard - same binary, which btw completely was built on Tiger, same settings - runs without the fans spinning. Opposite, if I set the emulation speed from 100% to as-fast-as-possible, in Tiger the emulator ran at a speed what felt like 1.5x, may be 2.0x, but on Leopard it runs at least at something that feels like 10x.
So, Leopard for me at least is now the better choice. Tiger is only on spare-machines (G4 and Intel, just for the more original Aqua-look) and G3s.

 

[kencu]

The problem with Intel Tiger is that Clang doesn't work there, and the Apple cctools assembler for x86 is too old to parse much of the Intel assembly in the codebase. This means that I have to disable the optimized Intel assembly, which makes parts of the browser (mainly media playback) much much slower. I initially did this for the 10.5 Intel build before I released it, but I was eventually able to get Clang working for the optimized code. Genuinely nobody should be running Intel 10.4, the resources to make that build happen are not justified.

I agree that Tiger Intel required more effort than most things. I used to use it mainly in a VM on faster machines, to test Tiger things. And for building TenFourFox.

There are a few clang versions that build there, using MacPorts. IIRC, stock MacPorts builds up to clang-3.7 easily on Tiger Intel. I also built clang-5.0 and clang-7.0 on Tiger Intel with modest effort (a few hand-edited generated build files).

 

[dbsoft]

Hey, so seems like there is a lot of interest in the PowerFox browser, is that because people prefer the Basilisk/Firefox Australis interface as opposed to the traditional Firefox/Pale Moon/White Star interface?

 

[Caleb Hauge]

Hey, so seems like there is a lot of interest in the PowerFox browser, is that because people prefer the Basilisk/Firefox Australis interface as opposed to the traditional Firefox/Pale Moon/White Star interface?

I think the interest is simply in the fact that it's a modern browser compatible with OS X PPC, unlike Pale Moon/White Star (which I'm guessing could be ported given that we now do have a UXP based-browser ported, but what's the point?) which are not compatible with OS X PPC. Personally, I'm running PowerFox with Classic Theme Restorer because I do like the older look, but the main draw for me (and I assume most others) is the compatibility and performance it offers, which, even without JIT, often surpasses TenFourFox.

 

[dbsoft]

I think the interest is simply in the fact that it's a modern browser compatible with OS X PPC, unlike Pale Moon/White Star (which I'm guessing could be ported given that we now do have a UXP based-browser ported, but what's the point?)

Umm... PowerFox is based on my work porting UXP and White Star to PowerPC Mac, it was around before PowerFox. Been working on it for like 2 years now.

 

[Jazzzny]

Umm... PowerFox is based on my work porting UXP and White Star to PowerPC Mac, it was around before PowerFox. Been working on it for like 2 years now.

Yes, and thank you again for the work. This is mentioned in the first post in this thread, in the about window of the browser, and on GitHub.

Regarding adoption, I believe that you could try making forum posts on the big vintage Mac communities, that is where the remaining PPC user base resides after all.

I personally prefer Australis as it still resembles a modern web browser, but I’m sure that there are fans of the old Firefox interface.

(PowerFox is a spiritual continuation of my InterWeb 55 and that was based on roytam1’s Moebius continuation, which had the australis interface)

 

[Smithwick’s]

Hey, so seems like there is a lot of interest in the PowerFox browser, is that because people prefer the Basilisk/Firefox Australis interface as opposed to the traditional Firefox/Pale Moon/White Star interface?

I actually didn’t realize there was an effort to port UXP/White Star, or that you were behind that! Phenomenal work. That being said, I’d have definitely been an early adopter if I knew about the project. Haven’t seen it mentioned so I guess it escaped me. I do agree with Jazzzny above that getting word out to the few PPC communities is key to any successful project in this realm.

 

[Jazzzny]

The codebase had some major usability blockers before another developer stepped in, and some visual issues remained afterwards which I fixed.

 

[dbsoft]

Yeah it has definitely been a team effort recently, and I got a lot of encouragement from people in the community from the start, you guys are really great!

 

[srp]

Yeah it has definitely been a team effort recently, and I got a lot of encouragement from people in the community from the start, you guys are really great!

I have White Star installed alongside PowerFox and use them interchangeably - I remember doing a web benchmark at some point and seeing very similar results between the two browsers. Thank you for your hard work and contributions in this area!

 

[wicknix]

is that because people prefer the Basilisk/Firefox Australis interface as opposed to the traditional Firefox/Pale Moon/White Star interface?

I myself prefer the Firefox 4 interface that PM/WS is using. Never liked Australis. However, beggars can’t be choosers. An updated browser is an updated browser.

 

[dbsoft]

But now you can choose! White Star for the Pale Moon/Firefox 4 interface... or PowerFox for the Basilisk/Firefox Australis interface!

 

[wicknix]

But now you can choose!

Ideally i’d like to see my SeaMonkey fork that’s built on top of UXP built for PowerPC and/or Snow Leopard. I’ve been a huge SeaMonkey fan since it originated. Having the full suite on those old machines would be awesome. Sadly i barely have time to keep up with current UXP changes for my 10.7 builds. If either your or @Jazzzny or both want to tackle a PPC/10.6 port of that someday i’d be thrilled. You can even use my branding. At any rate, keep up the good work guys. 🙂