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And one more:

Just to throw in his counter-point to Thinksecret's predictions. If Think secret is wrong, I sure hope this guy is right!

Ok basically I know they have released speed bumps in the past like what ts is saying. Remember though ts is in a lawsuit were they are supposed to give their sources up. Since that lawsuit they havent "guessed" right, yet. I believe they're eroding the credibility of their sources to try and protect them. I have great respect for Nick and the site. He has done a great job and this whole situation is not to good. Antares was supposed to start out at 3.0ghz the cooling article may have said 2ghz, but I'm sure they weren't going to put all the specs for different processors in there. Believe me if you are hearing about it. They've been working with it for years. Apple has probably had there hands on this since a few months before the 2.5 came out. Maybe even longer. The fact is no matter how much you search
you won't get info on it. Unless you know someone inside.

I can tell you guaranteed that a few things being said here on these boards simply would never fly at this point.

1. Some have said there will be 2.7 and 2.8 ghz powermac systems. Apple won't be making a powermac without a 500 mhz increase for a while. When they do make one that is not 500 because it'll be something higher. You will never again see bumps lower than 500 mhz.
2. Even if there a 4 cores and not dual processors the chip speed wil not go down from where they are currently. Apple has given little thought to the mhz myth in the past. But look in some of the posts around various sites of people dropping there powermac for an AMD machine. Believe me Apple is aware of how this mhz myth plays out now. You wont catch them slipping again, especially not after last year.
3. Remember when the mini and shuffle were released before earnings for the 1st quarter? Among all the speculation of tiger release dates i only saw one person on various forums saying tuesday before earnings was the day.
In case you didn't notice the new ipod lineup that was released in march was released on a wednesday. Powerbooks came on a monday. Apple has changed the entire release schedule's because of people not buying on the expected new release of certain products. You can be sure apple will never have a regular release schedule again because of this.
4. Intel and Amd love telling the press what could be accomplished by them. Steve is more an element of surprise type. Think of intel's theoretical mac mini they showed off and the press it got. Well now you've got hordes of people waiting for these new processors from Intel and AMD. Everyday you read an article about them. By the time there out they're already telling you what's coming next. So again people wait and think well maybe I can wait for a few more months. Now they're basically cutting into their own sales. But, wait where's Apple and IBM in all this? Well they're quietly waiting to usher in the powermac's and show the world they've been ahead all this time, they just know how to keep a secret. You see folks when that happens how does that affect the market? You've got 2 companies with a roadmap of where they'll be, and one company seemingly coming out of the blue with what appears to be a knockout punch (that will take the others years to catch up to). Where does that leave the other guys? SOL.
5. TS will not even be in the ballpark on the powermac's.
6. As long as iMac's continue to sell your not going to get any crazy upgrades on them. Maybe a few nice things next time around, certainly not dual core or speed's above 2ghz.
 
dicklacara said:
What if...

Also announced at NAB are new XServe Duallies (Dual, Dual-core CPUs)
My hunch would be that if something big is announced at NAB it will be quad XServes.

Wouldn't need to be dual core - put 4 970FX chips in a 3U or 4U chassis with redundant power, lots of slots, and 7 disks (maybe even make the "disk cage" half of an XServe RAID (7 ATA disks on one RAID controller).

The XServe is a "toy" in the server market - good price/performance, but none of the real availability features that mark a mainstream server (hot plug fans, redundant hot plug power supplies, hot plug RAM with advanced redundancy (RAID for RAM), hot plug PCI-X....).

The current 1U form factor also makes it next to impossible to load it up with the NICs, FC, and other interfaces to balance the processing power with the I/O capacity. It just doesn't have the cajones to be a real network server.

(I have a couple of 2U HPaq servers with 6 GigE Ethernet ports, quad Fibre Channel ports, and two InfiniBand ports - those 64-bit Xeons are very busy moving data around my network!)
 
PeterQVenkman said:
And, go see the thread for yourself!

http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=5662

Remember, read my few posts before.

God, I am driven nuts by this. I hope we get something soon.

At least now we can focus on the news conference scheduled for 11am EDT at NAB tomorrow. Just the news media, so that should eliminate any booing. Doubt that Steve would show up on a Sunday. Unless he wants to be in on 100th Las Vegas activities.
 
wdlove said:
At least now we can focus on the news conference scheduled for 11am EDT at NAB tomorrow. Just the news media, so that should eliminate any booing. Doubt that Steve would show up on a Sunday. Unless he wants to be in on 100th Las Vegas activities.

Ok, its Sunday 8am here so 11am EDT has passed right?
 
Lacero, try it again, or copy and paste the text. I messed up while cutting and pasting everything. I'm such a dork.

daveL -

Think Secret's revealed specs sound a little off to me. Those specs were unimpressive (although realistic), and the video cards at least I bet are TOTALLY wrong.

I'm working right now on a dual 1.25 Ghz G4 with 1.5 GB or RAM, and DVD Studio Pro still stutters on me. What's it going to be like in "the year of HD"? Is Apple going to deliver software without Hardware to truly back it up?

Before anyone says the G5s are fast enough, I would say try animating with more than 20 layers in After Effects, Rendering in cinema 4d (anything with a good amount of detail, like an interior Radiosity render with high diffuse lighting samples), or working with uncompressed NTSC resolution video.

Tell me you don't need more speed, and I would say you either
1) Don't have hard deadlines
2) Have clients/bosses who are WAY more giving than mine
3) Haven't pushed your computer nearly as hard as the people I work with.

HD video will kick your computer's @$$. I think we will see something bigger come out of Apple than 2.7 or 2.8 Ghz.

Where did the 2.5's go? Hmmm? Wouldn't it be easier for Apple to ramp up production if chips at that speed were already available? It would be a mistake (a costly one) to just ditch their highest yielded clock speed from last revision. They would at LEAST reuse it in the middle of the line It is what they always do. it makes sense business wise. The 2.3 is believable because the xServe uses it.

My more down to Earth bet is that 2.7 or 2.8 will be the middle of the road, with 2.3 on the bottom end.

But, regardless, I am buying the middle of the road G5 that comes down the pipeline next. I bought my dual monitors in January in anticipation of a model refresh and have been left with blue-balls since then.
 
broken_keyboard said:
Well, the Dark Side clouds everything. Do you have any other reason to believe they are wrong?

Ever since the ThinkSecret lawsuit, dabbled in the Dark Side Jobs has. False rumors and deception are his ways now.
 
Hiroshige said:
Ever since the ThinkSecret lawsuit, dabbled in the Dark Side Jobs has. False rumors and deception are his ways now.

LOL! I hope you are right. In this case if Think Secret is off on specs I win. I have a nice chunk of change built up for my power Mac. My iMac at home does NOT cut it anymore. :p
 
AidenShaw said:
(I have a couple of 2U HPaq servers with 6 GigE Ethernet ports, quad Fibre Channel ports, and two InfiniBand ports - those 64-bit Xeons are very busy moving data around my network!)

I usually agree with you but I have to call BS on this one.

Even IF your 2U had PCI-X 64 bit 266Mhz it couldn't handle the full bandwidth of 1 IB card( 10Gbits(20 bi-directional))
2 cards would be 40Gbits
And servers with 64 bit PCI-X 266 are a very rare breed. Also there are no IB cards that I am aware of for 266.
And HP doesn't sell any 2U's with 266 either.
A 133Mhz 64 bit PCI bus has a max theoretical bandwidth of 8.512 Gbits
Therefore a single IB card pushes over 2.25 times as much as the PCI-X can provide.
The server would have to have 2 PCI-express 16x to provide full bandwidth to the 2 IB cards.
6 GigE would push 12Gbits bi-directional that also overloads PCI-X
a Quad Fibre channel card would completely saturate PCI-X all by itself.


What you have described in bandwidth is 60Gbits of I/O
bandwidth.
Thats even 25% higher than the Max theoretical memory bandwidth for Xeons
I'm from Missouri
Show Me
 
PeterQVenkman said:
daveL -

Think Secret's revealed specs sound a little off to me. Those specs were unimpressive (although realistic), and the video cards at least I bet are TOTALLY wrong.
PeterQ, I didn't say I believe TS, nor that you don't need the performance that you'd get from some of these rumored specs (the threads you linked to). However, I do not believe that IBM can produce a 970-whatever that's clocked faster than the current high-end AMD processors. I just don't think you're going to see a single core 970 faster than 2.8 GHz or a dual-core faster than 2.4 GHz. I'd love to be wrong, but I just don't think anything above these clock rates are realistic at this time.
 
~loserman~ said:
I usually agree with you but I have to call BS on this one.

Even IF your 2U had PCI-X 64 bit 266Mhz it couldn't handle the full bandwidth of 1 IB card( 10Gbits(20 bi-directional))
2 cards would be 40Gbits
And servers with 64 bit PCI-X 266 are a very rare breed. Also there are no IB cards that I am aware of for 266.
And HP doesn't sell any 2U's with 266 either.
A 133Mhz 64 bit PCI bus has a max theoretical bandwidth of 8.512 Gbits
Therefore a single IB card pushes over 2.25 times as much as the PCI-X can provide.
The server would have to have 2 PCI-express 16x to provide full bandwidth to the 2 IB cards.
6 GigE would push 12Gbits bi-directional that also overloads PCI-X
a Quad Fibre channel card would completely saturate PCI-X all by itself.


What you have described in bandwidth is 60Gbits of I/O
bandwidth.
Thats even 25% higher than the Max theoretical memory bandwidth for Xeons
I'm from Missouri
Show Me
Well, everyone get ready for a bunch of hand waving from AS.
 
~loserman~ said:
Are you saying that you disagree with my post?
Not at all. I was referring to AS reacting to your post. Suffice it to say, even if such a box can be bought, it certainly would be over-configured for I/O. I normally agree with your posts. I normally don't agree with posts by AS.
 
frantically waving his hands, AS says....

~loserman~ said:
I usually agree with you but I have to call BS on this one.
...

What you have described in bandwidth is 60Gbits of I/O bandwidth.

You get a B- on your math - it's actually 68 Gbps - each FC is 2 Gbps bidirectional.

Did I claim that I was running at full cross-sectional bandwidth on all ports simultaneously?

No, and it's very common to configure servers with more *connectivity* than they can actually use at any instant.

The Fibre goes to a couple of different SAN arrays.

The GigE goes to several different networks (subnets).

The IB goes to a specialized local network (which is also bridged to GigE and FC).

When the server (it's mostly a disk server) gets a request from a network system, it can service it at full speed (a single disk request is usually disk limited). It can do several at once, all at full speed.

If everything lights up at once, there's a limit - which for these systems seems to be at about 1 GB/sec total throughput in the best case (that's what can move across the system backplane).

This is why 6 to 10 PCI-X slots are typical for a 4U server - not because it can run them all at full bandwidth, but because you want to connect it to many different networks and devices.

If we followed your math, we'd question why an XServe RAID has more than 3 disks... (A disk can do roughly 70 MB/sec, the 2 Gbps FC can do about 200 MB/sec, therefore we'll have an FC bottleneck if we have more than 3 disks.)

The answer, of course, is that we want *connectivity* to more disks so that we can have more MB. It's OK if we hit a limit on MB/sec - as long as we have the MB available.
_________________________

How would you directly connect an XServe to 6 GigE networks, 4 FC SANs, and two IB fabrics?

Y O U __ C A N N O T !!

That's why I've argued for a larger server with more slots, redundant power, and the availability features needed for such use. The XServe is lacking in *connectivity*, and lacking in availability and reliability features.
 
daveL said:
PeterQ, I didn't say I believe TS, nor that you don't need the performance that you'd get from some of these rumored specs (the threads you linked to). However, I do not believe that IBM can produce a 970-whatever that's clocked faster than the current high-end AMD processors. I just don't think you're going to see a single core 970 faster than 2.8 GHz or a dual-core faster than 2.4 GHz. I'd love to be wrong, but I just don't think anything above these clock rates are realistic at this time.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not uppity, just passionate! :)

But I think you may be right about proc speeds. If Steve presents these, bet on seeing that 3 Ghz. If he doesn't present them, expect a quiet release of lower specs (perhaps on a Monday and not on a stage) to avoid booing from professionals.

I still think the video cards are BS, though. Apple needs something like the FireGL to really help the 3d mac world. There is an article in 3d World (from Britain) called "Can Apple break into 3d?"

It is an eye opening article on what some REALLY high end professionals think of Apple. One of them basically said their secrecy hurts the business purchases. I would tend to agree. My company has not upgraded simply because we expect something new, and my boss came really, really close to switching us all to PCs. I managed to talk him out of that, so I stay on a Mac. but they lost three other employees in my 8 person company! We went from 1 PC and 7 macs to 3 PCs over night.

Yikes!

Even though I would join in on the booing if there was any, I'd still blush, turn around, and hand Apple $2500 for the middle of the road Rev c G5 the same day.

Aren't Apple users a pain in the ass? ;)
 
Hey Loserman!

Do you use XGrid on your humongous XServe network?

The reason I am asking is that I've done some surfing & googling & think that Apple is going to announce XGrid-enabled versions of their Pro apps at NAB.

This would allow apps like Final Cut Pro to easily spread CPU & GPU intensive processes across multiple computers-- anywhere from some old G3s, low-end (maybe headless) minis to high-end XServes.

If this is true, Apple can satisfy a wide range of AV creators & have a competitive advantage that others won't be able to match for months (at almost any price).

I fooled around with XGrid & it is a piece of cake to use -- biggest down side is there aren't many programs available and processes that lend themselves to grid computing. Rendering AV frames or slides (maybe even h264 encoding) seem like naturals.

Seems like Apple could satisfy a whole lot of NAB people even if they don't announce revolutionary PMs.
 
dicklacara said:
Do you use XGrid on your humongous XServe network?

The reason I am asking is that I've done some surfing & googling & think that Apple is going to announce XGrid-enabled versions of their Pro apps at NAB.

This would allow apps like Final Cut Pro to easily spread CPU & GPU intensive processes across multiple computers-- anywhere from some old G3s, low-end (maybe headless) minis to high-end XServes.

If this is true, Apple can satisfy a wide range of AV creators & have a competitive advantage that others won't be able to match for months (at almost any price).

I fooled around with XGrid & it is a piece of cake to use -- biggest down side is there aren't many programs available and processes that lend themselves to grid computing. Rendering AV frames or slides (maybe even h264 encoding) seem like naturals.

Seems like Apple could satisfy a whole lot of NAB people even if they don't announce revolutionary PMs.

No we don't use Xgrid. It is too chatty to be of use to us. I also would doubt it's scalability to a system our size.
 
~loserman~ said:
No we don't use Xgrid. It is too chatty to be of use to us.

What do you mean by 'chatty'?

I also would doubt it's scalability to a system our size.

I wouldn't doubt any technology (from any provider) unless you have had a chance to put it through its paces - or at least have read extensive reviews and articles of the technology in action.
 
AidenShaw said:
If we followed your math, we'd question why an XServe RAID has more than 3 disks... (A disk can do roughly 70 MB/sec, the 2 Gbps FC can do about 200 MB/sec, therefore we'll have an FC bottleneck if we have more than 3 disks.)

Well actually the Drives used in the Xserves Raids average a sustained data rate around 42 MBs. 6 Drives give just a little more bandwidth than the Fibre Channel can provide. Of course if you count FC's bi-directional bandwidth then it has more than the drives. That is why Apple uses 2 independent raid controllers and 2 fiber channel connections to ea Xserve raid.

Also I personally can't think of any reason why someone would run 2 infiniband fabrics in one box. Especially considering that IB can deliver Full bi-sectional bandwidth at 10 Gig per second( every node can communicate with every other node at 10 Gig and all communicating at the same time without blocking). It doesn't make sense. For that matter it doesn't make sense for a server to have Quad Fiber channel either.

Personally I like the xserve like it is. The only thing I would change I/O wise would be to replace 1 PCI-X with a 16 X PCI-express.

Now if Apple decides in the next few years to build larger servers thats ok with me. I personally don't think they will. It isn't their market segment.
 
animefan_1 said:
What do you mean by 'chatty'?



I wouldn't doubt any technology (from any provider) unless you have had a chance to put it through its paces - or at least have read extensive reviews and articles of the technology in action.

I smiled when he called it "Chatty" (brought back memories of AppleTalk & "Who's got the Data" packets).

XGid's chattiness polly comes about because of its use of BonJour (nee Rendezvous). Bonjour makes setup & distibution of workload easy, no trivial.

However, unless set otherwise, XGid processes will allways report back status-- even if not asked. AIR, you can control this to some extent.

Don't know about scaling!

But, I think that Apple could bypass BonJour, minimize the chattiness, and make it scale well for specific applications-- say encoding h264 DVD movies.
 
animefan_1 said:
What do you mean by 'chatty'?



I wouldn't doubt any technology (from any provider) unless you have had a chance to put it through its paces - or at least have read extensive reviews and articles of the technology in action.

Xgrid uses the rendezvous service which is UDP based. In other words it uses broadcast traffic for communications.
 
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