PPC 970 PowerMac in May?

[jettredmont]

Re: Slow That Roll People...

Originally posted by a9mike
I'd like to see a new 970 system debut in the next few weeks as much as anyone out there, but... Is it possible that these, slower than anticipated, chips/systems are for developers & not the public? I'd don't expect Apple to bring out a half-ass system.

Make it - give it to the developers (with a solid and immediately available yet slower 970 proc) - perfect it (including faster than 1.4 970 procs) - and then bring it out to the public in the next 4-8 months with full 64-bit support.

I'm assuming you mean external software developers here, not internal hardware engineers (who I would assume have been playing with their 970-equipped machines for some time now ...)

Coming out on the high-end PowerMac is essentially releasing it to developers. These are the machines developers buy. I doubt Apple could somehow restrict any product "just" to developers, besides just making them really expensive to buy.

 

[arn]

this rumor is a very optimistic view of the release of the 970.

we'll see...

arn

 

[rice_web]

Well, from how I read it, the low-end PowerMac would be released in the next two to four weeks, with the top-of-the-line model coming at WWDC. Firstly, did I read into that correctly? Secondly, what would be wrong with a release schedule such as this?

 

[mxpiazza]

you know, i think a fact that many people are overlooking here, is that the eMac's are going to get their speed bump to 1gHz... most likely right aside the release of the 970. looking at it that way, then the eMac being that powerful makes sense, and you wouldn't have a $1,000 educational machine outperforming professional models... upgrading the powermacs (and dare i say powerbooks?) to the 970 would clear the way for this eMac speed bump... i think looking at the rumors of the eMac speed bump provides some more stability and cerdibility to this 970 rumor. let me know what you think.

 

[BaghdadBob]

Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by jettredmont
Look through the archives of these foums for more detail, but the quick summary: no, a single 64-bit CPU is not better than dual 32-bit processors.

However a single 970 has a lot more going for it than just 64-bit integer processing: it also has a massive front-side bus (as big as the FSB that Intel finally put on their latest P4 after a recall and much delay), and is altogether a much more advanced CPU than the G4. On SPECInt numbers (heavily skewed towards server-type CPU usage, but still useful here), the GHz G4 gets around 300, while the 1.8GHz 970 tops 1000 (i forget the exact numbers). In other words, the 970, clock for clock, is about twice as fast as the G4. And it has a much bigger pipeline feeding it (the major bottleneck in the G4 design).

So, no, a 64-bit chip is not equivalent or better than two 32-bit chips. A single 970 running at 1.4GHz, however, is definitely better than dual 1.42GHz G4s.

No ****? I wonder how that's going to boil down in real terms?

OK, assuming it's still true that a G4 is like 130-180% faster in benchmarks than a P4 with equivalent clock speed...if a 970 is twice as fast as a G4, well, let's cut that down to 1.5 times to assume lack of optimization or other bottlenecks or whatever...1.4Ghz*1.5*1.5...

A 1.4 GHz 970 will be equivalent to a 3.15 GHz P4? With a DP -- (assuming QP is just pure fantasy on my part)....

Where's my biffo cartoon?!? "Let's kick Intel's ass!" (We're fighting back for Mac!)

Someone shoot me down before I start pacing uncontrollably...

 

[a9mike]

Ignance

Thanks jettredmont for clearing that up, and forgive my ignance...

I just find it hard to believe that with all the timelines we've seen from IBM on the chip, that they can get this thing launched this soon. Apple does have a way of suprising us though, don't they?

Also, won't they be expanding the Mhz Myth? <general public>"They already have a 1.4Ghz proc - what kind of upgrade is this new 1.4 Ghz?"</general public>

 

[rice_web]

Re: Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
No ****? I wonder how that's going to boil down in real terms?

The PowerMac G4s that are currently on the market make very little use of the second processor due to its insanely slow system bus--167MHz, and not nearly enough. But, there is definitely more to the equation. Here's a list of what I've heard from the rumor scene over the past few months concerning the 970:

- 512K L2 Cache
- 900MHz (Up To) System Bus
- 64-Bit Memory Address (for increased amounts of system memory)

This compares to 256 L2 Cache (though the G4 does have 2MB L3 cache), 167MHz system bus, and 32-bit memory addressing in Motorola's G4.

Plus, the 970 has a significantly improved architecture. The 970 uses a simpler design than the G4 could ever imagine (though, the 970 has a surprisingly complex structure, it is still a better design than the G4).

Will these advantages mean a faster system? Not necessarily. However, if 1.4 is the low-end (as some insist), it may not be a problem.

 

[BaghdadBob]

Seen many ads lately? Maybe they're saving their pennies...

Think "Q3 marketing blitz"

This year's theme: how Apple kicks all your PCs in the fatherboard...over and over again...

 

[ffakr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by rice_web
The PowerMac G4s that are currently on the market make very little use of the second processor due to its insanely slow system bus--167MHz

It's not like the first processor gets all the bandwidth and the second doesn't get any. ;-)

Here's a list of what I've heard from the rumor scene over the past few months concerning the 970:

You know, you can get all this directly from IBM's web site. You don't need to rely on second hand info here at the rumor sites

- 900MHz (Up To) System Bus
- 64-Bit Memory Address (for increased amounts of system memory)

This compares to... 167MHz system bus, and 32-bit memory addressing in Motorola's G4.

Well, the G4 has a 64 bit, bi-directional bus while the 970 has two single direction 32bit buses.
And, if you check Motorola's site you'll see the G4 actually has 36 bit memory addressing. I believe the G4 can natively address 64 GB of memory. The P4 also has 36bit memory addressing. This is why you can find Xeon server that support more than 4Gig of ram.

Plus, the 970 has a significantly improved architecture. The 970 uses a simpler design than the G4 could ever imagine (though, the 970 has a surprisingly complex structure, it is still a better design than the G4).

I'm confused. You are getting your info from the internet but you seem to know that the architecture of the 970 is a 'simpler design' than the G4. How so?
Did you know that the 970 is 8 way superscaler while the G4 is 5 way [i believe]? (that it can issue up to 8 instructions per clock cycle while the G4 maxes at 5) Did you know that it will have a longer pipeline than the G4? Are these examples of the simpler design?

Will these advantages mean a faster system? Not necessarily. However, if 1.4 is the low-end (as some insist), it may not be a problem.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the 970 will be much faster than the G4... even when you compare a dual G4 to a 970. The SPEC scores show about twice the performance for the 970 and there is significantly more bandwidth available to the processor. The chipset of any 970 based machine will also likely use hyperthreading [probably between north & southbridges] so the entire system will be faster.
I doubt we'd see something like a single 1Gig G4, a dual 1.25Gig G4, and a single 1.4 GHz 970 in that order though. It'd be awfully hard to market unless they portrayed the 970 machine as a workstation. I mean, IBM still demands $10,000 for Power based workstations that clock significantly lower than their P4 desktops.
I guess we'd have to wait and see....
Maybe Apple can swing it by continuing to sell the Pro towers... while introducing the new Apple Pro Workstation. Then as the 970 becomes more available, the Pro Tower goes away and it's just consumer and Workstation.
Hmnnnn??

 

[Dave K]

Re: Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

A 1.4 GHz 970 will be equivalent to a 3.15 GHz P4? With a DP -- (assuming QP is just pure fantasy on my part)....

No. The SPEC (~980 int,, ~1000 Floating Point IIRC), numbers provided by IBM were estimated for a 970 at 1.8 GHz, and have been eclipsed by a 3 GHz 533Mhz P4 setup.

Like the Athlon, however, the 970 is quite competitive at lower clocks with the P4.

Howver, one should note that SPEC scores are only valid for the exact same configuration and therefore, no one can know what the 970 will do until they get their hands on the final setup in terms of mem/motherboard/etc.

 

[Awimoway]

We shouldn't lose sight of the major increase in refurb models being offered by Apple. I know, because late last week I was shopping for a new display, so I checked Apple's refurb list. I can confirm that they were only selling 2 or 3 items a week ago.

It's also interesting to note that they are moving both displays that they currently sell. Perhaps they need to empty stock on these so that they can release redesigned displays. I know they just released new displays, but if Apple is going to make the 970 PowerMacs looks dramatically different, they would probably want the displays to match.

In any case, that's a darn fine price for a refurbed 20" Cinema display.

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: Re: another note...

Originally posted by Freg3000
Well, the reason you think the rumor has "holes" is because you are making an invalid assumption in my opinion. I think a 1.4 G5 would almost definetly be the high end model-NOT the low end. Even if it is only a single processor, a G5 will need to be top dog in a mixed G4/G5 Powermac line.

I think that the invalid assumption is not the one that you named. I think that, like the latest PowerMac upgrade, the low end is available for delivery first, but the higher end models are announced. So, the 1.4GHz single processor 970 machine is the low end model. I seriously doubt we'll see a mixed processor PowerMac line.

That said, something that was pointed out in another thread but hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that the Hon Hai location is where Apple has it PowerBooks made, not its PowerMacs. Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?

(If it is, I'm sure that there are also new PowerMacs on the way. I want no one to have any misconceptions that I might be suggesting that the 970 will be released in the PowerBooks before the PowerMacs. I am not.)

 

[BaghdadBob]

No more PowerMacs, only workstations?

No way, I don't like it. I don't want to have to got beyond the price range of the towers just to get a freakin computer I can upgrade. I don't think they will do this.

I still think that the problem of implementing the 970 into the current powermac lineup is the reason having them come in the iMacs first makes some sense, hopefully closely followed by DP version in the PowerMacs...they'll kill tower sales for a short period of time, but that's going to happen soon anyway...or maybe these are rolling out but are not scheduled to release until all the products are side-by-side, but they will have enough new macs to produce that they are getting a head start with the iMac.

Just speculation.

But I can't imagine Apple actually taking a step backwards in the issue of upgradability by eliminating powermacs and giving people the choice between an as-you-bought-it iMac and an even more expensive upper line with no middle ground. They lose enough sales this way already.

Edit:

Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?

Crap, snowy, how much of a titanic earth-shattering crush-the-competition roll do you expect them capable of? If this is the speculation then I am standing by my Quad 970 (or G5, if you're a SpyMac type).

Not that I don't like this kind of thinking.

 

[steveh]

Re: I don't buy it

Originally posted by TMJ1974
I'm with everyone here when I say that I can't wait to see the 970s debut.

One little "glitch" I see in this article mentions 1.4Ghz chips leaving Hon Hai....I remember IBM saying quite clearly these chips would be made in the New York facility.

IBM makes the CPU, they don't make the Apple systems. They would ship the chips to Hon Hai to put in the machines for Apple.

Actually, sounds to me like a batch of beta machines being built by Hon Hai for Apple to test before production ramps up.

It would be about right for a January product introduction.

 

[rice_web]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by ffakr
And, if you check Motorola's site you'll see the G4 actually has 36 bit memory addressing. I believe the G4 can natively address 64 GB of memory. The P4 also has 36bit memory addressing. This is why you can find Xeon server that support more than 4Gig of ram.

I didn't actually realize that the G4 offered 36-bit memory addressing. Well hell, that'd offer 16 times the memory capacity of 32-bit. So do we actually need 64-bit (which theoretically slows down due to the larger amounts of data being pushed)?

I'm confused. You are getting your info from the internet but you seem to know that the architecture of the 970 is a 'simpler design' than the G4. How so?
Did you know that the 970 is 8 way superscaler while the G4 is 5 way [i believe]? (that it can issue up to 8 instructions per clock cycle while the G4 maxes at 5) Did you know that it will have a longer pipeline than the G4? Are these examples of the simpler design?

ArsTechnica ran a set of nice stories a while back that detailed the 970 very well. Yes, the 970 is far more complex, but ArsTechnica called it an elegant design--obviously not verbatim--and one that is a much better structure than the G4. I'll have to re-read the articles, but the folks at ArsTechnica had great things to say about the 970.

 

[rice_web]

Re: Re: Re: another note...

Originally posted by Snowy_River
I think that the invalid assumption is not the one that you named. I think that, like the latest PowerMac upgrade, the low end is available for delivery first, but the higher end models are announced. So, the 1.4GHz single processor 970 machine is the low end model. I seriously doubt we'll see a mixed processor PowerMac line.

That said, something that was pointed out in another thread but hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that the Hon Hai location is where Apple has it PowerBooks made, not its PowerMacs. Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?

(If it is, I'm sure that there are also new PowerMacs on the way. I want no one to have any misconceptions that I might be suggesting that the 970 will be released in the PowerBooks before the PowerMacs. I am not.)

Hon Hai only produces PowerBooks? Do we know the exact details of the Hon Hai facility? I honestly don't know, but I'd think from the articles at Tom's Hardware that Apple moves from one manufacturer to the next quite often, and the street doesn't hear about it immediately. Perhaps Hon Hai is now producing the PowerMac.

 

[NavyIntel007]

Dude, I was all about to get a new powerbook sometime this summer but all this talk about the 970 has me wondering if I should just get a desktop, especially if the iMacs go 970. That's probably unlikely but it would be more bang for my buck and portability is something I already have with the Palm T|C. Oh god, choices... it was much easier when it was between the $1800 iBook 500 or the $3000 powerbook 500.

 

[JtheLemur]

Hmm. Am I the only one who wants (in addition to 970s of course) a new ENCLOSURE??! PLEASE Apple, PLEASE retire the Captain! Arggghy! =D

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: No more PowerMacs, only workstations?

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

Crap, snowy, how much of a titanic earth-shattering crush-the-competition roll do you expect them capable of? If this is the speculation then I am standing by my Quad 970 (or G5, if you're a SpyMac type).

Not that I don't like this kind of thinking.

Well, I can dream. And hope. I am going to be getting a new PowerBook once the new ones come out (whether they are G4 or 970), so I like to speculate on the prospects of a really killer new PowerBook.

And, no, I'm not a SpyMac type. I won't call it anything but a 970 until I hear 'G5' (or some other name) from Apple.

 

[Rincewind42]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's not a G5 people, this isn't SpyMac...

Originally posted by rice_web
I didn't actually realize that the G4 offered 36-bit memory addressing. Well hell, that'd offer 16 times the memory capacity of 32-bit. So do we actually need 64-bit (which theoretically slows down due to the larger amounts of data being pushed)?

Because 36-bit addressing is extremely awkward. It's like trying to bring in a dozen bags of groceries when you can only carry 10. If your going to manipulate a memory address, you have to carry around the extra bits somewhere, even if they aren't going to change very often. It generally amounts to greater inefficiency than just going all the way to 64-bit. As for theoretical slow downs, it depends highly on the system architecture. In many cases carrying around more than 33-63 bits is just as expensive/messy as carrying around 64, so you might as well carry all 64 and get the extra functionality that go with it.

 

[Wyrm]

Ha ha - so it looks like we've already decided for Apple to use the 970. Well, I must admit, it is the most impressive public processor that Apple could use. Let's hope they think the same.

Does anyone remember the Power 601 rollout? I guess that was even worse, since it was a totally different CPU ISA - did Apple change all lines (albeit much smaller at the time) at once?

The interesting thing is they could roll out the 970 with the present 32 bit OS (heck they rolled out Duallies before they had an OS that could really use it - well OS X was public beta at the time) and it should still be faster than what they have. I guess they'd have a new chipset to support - but they've snuck stuff like that in pretty quickly - like the 17" PowerBook.

I for one, would be up for a PowerMac with the rumored CPU - it's just too cool to pass up.

-Wyrm

 

[Dave Marsh]

What about Steve's Speech?

Apple's next big meeting is the WWDC at the Moscone Center in late June, isn't it? Wasn't this conference delayed a month and moved to this venue?

I don't see Steve releasing a new 970-anything without his parading on stage to compare it to G4s and P4s, and that suggests to me no public mention of the 970s until the WWDC, whether they're stacked in warehouses in May or not.

As much as I'd like to see them sooner, I don't see it happening. So, for now, I'm much more interested in hearing more details about Apple's implementation of the 970 on their new motherboards. It's MacBidouille's ~May 15 tech teaser that's now got my attention.

 

[dorleac]

Arn,

Seeing my translation again on the site prompts me to make a few small edits. Also, apostrophes and the like are not appearing correctly in the rumor on the home page.


[Rumor] The PPC 970 in advance! [MàJ] - Lionel - 17:23:32

A well-informed source has told us that the first PPC 970 single processors, [clocked] at 1.4 GHZ, have left Hon Hai’s assembly lines. This is excellent news because they will be available much earlier than envisaged at the outset. The single processor will be in stock and for sale at the end of May, whereas the top-of-the-line [chip] will arrive mid-June, right before WWDC.

The only downside: the machines will be furnished with OSX, but not optimized with 64 bits. With every purchase of such a machine, Mac OSX 10.3 will be offered when it is ready in September. In this [current] configuration, unless Apple opposes it, we will reveal the benchmarks of the machine on May 15th at the latest.

[MàJ] Apple US is offering an exceptional 30% employee discount on pro G4 models. It is, in theory, a sign of the demise of the [G4] computer. Note that the 17” iMacs are also part of Apple’s promo.

Regards,
Dorleac

 

[WD-40]

MacBidouille has been known to get *WAY* ahead of themselves in the past. The most glaring example is January 2002 when they predicted PowerMac lines of 1.2 Gig, 1.4 Gig, and dual-1.4 Gig. Yes, that's close to the current lines, but this was predicted for 16 months ago, not now.

$749 for an eMac on the refurb list. Hmmm, I just wish I had the cash.

 

[C14ru5]

Originally posted by Wyrm
Does anyone remember the Power 601 rollout? I guess that was even worse, since it was a totally different CPU ISA - did Apple change all lines (albeit much smaller at the time) at once?

The PowerMacs (6100/7100/8100) all came rolling out at once. Apple offered PowerPC upgrades for the PowerBook 520/540. The rest of the line was either Quadra or LC040. The Performas and PowerBook 5300s came out a year later when the PPC603 was available.