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i can see the benefits of getting the 970 out there as soon as possible - that would mean Apple could catch up with the PC world as soon as possible.

but if they can't get it out soon, like in the next month or two, then it would make some sense to announce it so that companies would know for sure it's coming and might hold off purchasing a new batch of PC's and switch to Macs with the 970.
 
Originally posted by Titian
Well guys,
it seems that lot of you get excited again about rumors. I just wanted to ask you: when is the last time that Apple fulfilled the expectations of the Apple community? Maybe a few decades ago. Maybe.

Fare question and again like many have said here you're wrong. If you were a true Apple aficionado and have been following and using their hardware/software on a daily basis and see from example what this hardware/software actually does for one and how it helps and contributes to your life, you'd understand. But if you're a novice or PC centric user and have not applied it and used it for its intended purpose you're not going to appreciate the Macintosh and OS X truly and know its worth.

Now let me ask you a question
Q.When is the last time you heard of a hardware+softare/ music service provider include the most popular mp3 player/ movie production - dvd authoring/ Digital photography/photography/ photo-retouching/ photo-printing / Advertising / TV production/ Movie Production/ Fashion design/ Education/ company, do ANYTHING to fulfill the expectations and needs of anyone.
 
Re: Hon Hai Not the builder

Mental lapse in a hurried post: Hon Hai = Foxconn, not Elitegroup.

It's still not where the PowerMacs are being assembled.
 
The only downside: the machines will be furnished with OSX, but not optimized with 64 bits. With every purchase of such a machine, Mac OSX 10.3 will be offered when it is ready in September. In this state, unless Apple opposes it, we will reveal the benchmarks of the machine on May 15th at the latest.


Think that these MacBidoul. PPC 970 rumors are absolute crap.
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.

:mad:
 
Originally posted by Gyroscope
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.

:mad: [/B]

Nobody has said it would work "out of the box" with the current Jaguar, but it has also been indicated that the modifications needed to Jaguar to allow it to run on the 970 in 32 bit mode, are relatively minor and would require minimal development resources.

Jaguar as it is today? No. A modified Jaguar? Yes. It wouldn't be the first time Apple has modified a current OS to enable it for a new processor. We will have to wait for Panther to get the full power of the 970, but even a modified Jaguar running on a 970 system should provide a substantial performance boost over current systems.
 
Nobody has said it would work "out of the box" with the current Jaguar, but it has also been indicated that the modifications needed to Jaguar to allow it to run on the 970 in 32 bit mode, are relatively minor and would require minimal development resources.

Well we can only speculate about the extent of these modifications. I must agree with you that this wouldn't be first time Apple has done so. I remember when System 7.1 came out it was modified only few months(if not even days) after its release (7.1.2) to support PPC. As I herard back then. It was all work of one single person who wrote that PPC enabler. Somehow, this time I have feeling that first PPC 970 enabled OS will be Panther (or whatever that may be called).
 
Isn't Panther (10.3) also debuting at WWDC? This is for developers...to get their hands on these 970 boxes and start optimizing their programs for them. I just don't see a public May release for these guys...much less a June 'planet wide' conquest with these things. This will be the first peek, to start the hype.

Production will then ramp up...with a full blown intro and product line unveiling in January 2004. 20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...only this time let's hope they do it right ;) . Anyway...from a marketing standpoint, it is perfect.

I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to have one of the 2.0 GHz 970's running FCP 4, Maya in June. Maybe they will surprise me, either way it's going to be a fun next 6 months :D
 
Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that aimed at IBM at the time?

Assuming I'm not totally off base...isn't it ironic? Doncha think? It's like raiaaaaaaaain, on yer wedding day...sort of. :D
 
Originally posted by Mr.Hey
If you were a true Apple aficionado and have been following and using their hardware/software on a daily basis and see from example what this hardware/software actually does for one and how it helps and contributes to your life, you'd understand. But if you're a novice or PC centric user and have not applied it and used it for its intended purpose you're not going to appreciate the Macintosh and OS X truly and know its worth.

Good question, I understand what you mean. I was working in the development department for a company which received one of the first try out model of Macintosh II (two guys were constantly there watching that we didn't open the computer). Since then I never left Apple, my heart beats for Apple and I always updated my computer every 3-5 years. I was at that time one of the very few Mac user in Switzerland and I remember my friends were constantly laughing about it. I am also the very first client of the now biggest Apple seller in Switzerland.
Nevertheless I am an Apple fan I try to see things from a neutral point of view. Of course a "neutral" point of view doen't exists because anyway either the heart or the lack of knowledge and information has an important part in any point of view.

Now let me ask you a question
Q.When is the last time you heard of a hardware+softare/ music service provider include the most popular mp3 player/ movie production - dvd authoring/ Digital photography/photography/ photo-retouching/ photo-printing / Advertising / TV production/ Movie Production/ Fashion design/ Education/ company, do ANYTHING to fulfill the expectations and needs of anyone.

I think that Apple is doing a super job in software which no other software company is beating (I think I wrote this in my previous message). The overall performance of the hardware is instead behind everybody and Apple knows that.
Lots of us blame Motorola but it is Apple choice to choose that processor. I beleve that Apple's strategy is to keep being (slightly) behind the performances of the competitors so that they can bring constantly hardware updates which they could bring out months before. I believe when I read forums that Apple has "brain washed" their customers (please do not take this as an offense: I am also an Apple fan). Apple has learnt how to manipulate their customers, giving them just the minimum to keep them. The conferences, anouncements and communication policy is another part in the chain... What I feel is that there is not enough pressure from the Apple customers to the company as there is for example in the PC world. We are very easily satisfied and this doesn't help the development on the hardware side.
Will the PPC 970 PowerMac change the situation: I believe no, because you can sell more with several small updates than with one big one especially when the users feel always satisfied. I just hope I am wrong. One thing I know: Apple is not so stupid.

Sorry if my english is not academic: I suppose I should also learn more english if I want to write in english forums. :D
 
See above

That's a bunch of crap.

Sorry, but no one around here is satisfied with the level of hardware performance Apple has put out in quite some time. And correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they were more expensive as usual, there was a time when Apple was keeping up with the Pentiums. Brief, but there.

And it's not just as simple as "choosing" a processor, unless you want them to go intel compatible -- which wouldn't be simple by any leap either. Motorola did an okay job for a while, I think we all had expectations from them that they had no intentions of living up to.

Now they've partnered up with Big Blue against a common enemy, and I don't believe they are trying to keep behind the competition.

I mean, for christ's sake, we used to have a ten percent market share. You think this is healthy in any way for the company? Is Jobs trying to thin the herd so he can have only the truly loyal in his cult?

Come on, none of that makes any sense.
 
Hey Titan...

I thnik that your argument regarding the incremental upgrades is flawed. I dont think that Apple is only interested in keeping hold of its customers in this way. It would be far far better for apple to come out with superior hardware and software in order to grab a bigger market share. THIS is where they will make alot of money in the future. Not just hanging on as youd suggest...

Have a nice one...
 
Re: 64-bit optimized

Originally posted by dornball
just don't think it makes sense to put a new, high-end, chip (the PowerPC 970) in a consumer model right away.

If they could do it a good price, it makes infinite sense. Power users know the Mac is a good machine--competitive with and often superior to Wintel machines. But it's the average consumer Apple needs to reach to grow its market.
 
Out of curiousity, how come MacBid's rumors always end up on the front page, whereas LoopRumors and Macwhispers are always on Page 2??

Does Arn have extra faith in them?
 
Originally posted by Gyroscope
Well we can only speculate about the extent of these modifications.

We do not have to speculate too much. IBM has said the modifications to get a 32-bit OS currently running on a PPC to work on the 970 are minimal. It sounds like, from their slides, you basically have to set some registers on the CPU to tell it to run in 32-bit compatibility mode.

I would imagine that, like most port jobs, the majority of the work is in the testing and not the programming.

Personally I think the rumors make a lot of sense. If Apple and IBM are going to be ready to move the PowerMac line to the 970 this fall or winter, they are going to want to get early machines the hands of developers. I think they want to at least preview a few great apps during the rollout presentation. That would require work to have already started and really ramp up this summer.

What I would do is get as many of early 970s as possible (usually slowerly clockspeeds are easiest to produce), modify my system controller to mate to the 970 and make single processor PowerMac 970s available to ADC Premier and Select members. If I have any left, then I would make them available to the general public.

But the first version would not be a redesign, it would not be dual processor and it would be done with the smallest hardware impact I could get to work. That is why I think a single processor PowerMac 970 1.4Ghz being released in a couple of months sounds reasonable. The point would be to get hardware into the hands of my software developers to test 64-bit Mac OS X.3 and port their apps.
 
Upgrade policy

Titian, I think you're both right and wrong.
Right because Apple was indeed trying to keep their customers contented over the last year or two by little updates. You're right also saying they're delivering superb software.
However, I think it's entirely wrong to think the current hardware situation is in anyway what they want.
Apple computers were as well or outperforming Wintels even in the early days of the PPC. Yes, Apple equipment and the machines were always much more expensive, but you got a lot of punch for that money (SCSI drives and all). Apple slowly migrated away from overly costly parts, using ATA drives and USB. Still, when the first G4s came out, they were seen and marketed as the fastet PCs on the planet. *Then* the G4 chip looked like a winner. Co-processing units and all with nothing (at that time) on the Wintel side to beat them.
Apple delivers to pros, not just graphic but also video. What you need there is raw power. This was always a major selling point for Apple. They would *never*, I repeat *never* willingly fall behind in performance. What happened was that they bet on the wrong horse (Moto) and lost. Sure, they made some mistakes but they certainly never wanted to loose. But they did. Then, and only then, did they have to apply all those marketing tricks we've seen the last 2 years. Yet, can't you see how deperately they are trying to keep up (Dual procs) but hardly ever managed to ? Indeed, with Shake and Maya Apple needs the most performing machines it can possibly get, and they're doing all they can to get them. G4 Pro sales have been plummeting recently and for a reason. Apple has all the jockeys, now they need the horse to to be ridden: The PPC 970. The development of the latter has already been dramatically accelerated by Apple. Apple has worked hard to make inroads into the movie business but only the PPC970 can substantiate them.
What Apple wants to see is, I think, what we all here want to see: The Pentium flattened again.
 
Re: Upgrade policy

Originally posted by dekator
What happened was that they bet on the wrong horse (Moto) and lost.

I think you're right about this, but nobody can fault Apple for that choice. Nobody could have seen it 20 years ago when the Mac was first developed. At the time, the Motorola processor was way ahead of Intel's.

If I remember right, the big three names in microprocessors then were Intel, Motorola, and National Semiconductor (not counting the 8 bit processors from Zilog). Intel had the worst architecture of the three.
 
Re: Re: Hon Hai Not the builder

Originally posted by MacWhispers
Mental lapse in a hurried post: Hon Hai = Foxconn, not Elitegroup.

It's still not where the PowerMacs are being assembled.

So where, in your opinion, are they being assembled? I was under the impression that the PowerMacs were still assembled in the US, but that was a few years ago. Are they now contracted out to builders in Asia, like the iMac/eMac/iBook/Powerbook?
 
Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Isn't Panther (10.3) also debuting at WWDC? This is for developers...to get their hands on these 970 boxes and start optimizing their programs for them. I just don't see a public May release for these guys...much less a June 'planet wide' conquest with these things. This will be the first peek, to start the hype.

Production will then ramp up...with a full blown intro and product line unveiling in January 2004. 20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...only this time let's hope they do it right ;) . Anyway...from a marketing standpoint, it is perfect.

I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to have one of the 2.0 GHz 970's running FCP 4, Maya in June. Maybe they will surprise me, either way it's going to be a fun next 6 months :D

I think that this would be truly foolish on Apple's part. Show us a 970 now (even if it's only to developers, you know that word will spread like wildfire), and then wait six months before releasing it? That a formula for half a year of nearly zero sales across the board! No, I can't believe that Apple doesn't want to get these machines out the door as fast as possible. This is their ticket to catch up in the area of hardware power. Why wouldn't they take advantage of it?
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
I think that this would be truly foolish on Apple's part. Show us a 970 now (even if it's only to developers, you know that word will spread like wildfire), and then wait six months before releasing it? That a formula for half a year of nearly zero sales across the board!

You know, people say this, but I wonder how much it really is true. People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM. I find it hard to believe it would affect iMac, iBook and PowerBook sales at all since those are not the top of the line performers anyway and probably will not be affected by the 970 for at least a year after its announcement.

I think there are a lot of people that realize if you wait six months there will always be something better. People still buy what they want/need when they want/need it.

The PowerMac sales right now are not that great and people know/believe something better is coming along in six months. I find it hard to believe many, other than those who simply cannot wait any longer, are buying PowerMacs now anyway. The sales are sinking like a stone and all that can happen is the stone sinks a little faster due to the announcement.

In my opinion, getting the PowerMac 970s in the hands of developers and getting the kinks worked out and apps updated is worth more to Apple than three or four months of even poorer PowerMac sales. I think when IBM is ready to produce 1.8Ghz+ 970s in quantity, Apple wants to be in a position to scream out of the gate. I don't think they want to delay getting machines into the hands of developers simply to save some percentage of three or fours months worth of PowerMac sales.
 
Why all people allways say that macbidouille give no good info ?

They realesed the Pics of the MDD Power Mac nearly 2 weeks before it was realesed and reported all thing which will be announced at Apple expo paris !

So till yet I cant remember that they gave wrong infos !
 
Re: Re: Upgrade policy

Originally posted by chabig
If I remember right, the big three names in microprocessors then were Intel, Motorola, and National Semiconductor (not counting the 8 bit processors from Zilog). Intel had the worst architecture of the three.

Ironically, they've been building on that same architecture for the last 20 years. Kinda like Windows.

Ballmer: "Linux is a clone of a twenty-year-old operating system, that's what it is."

:D
 
Originally posted by ktlx
People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM.

That difference isn't *that* large, performance wise - The introduction of the PPC 970, on the other hand will be a huge leap for Apple - quite a difference.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!
 
Originally posted by ktlx
You know, people say this, but I wonder how much it really is true. People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM. I find it hard to believe it would affect iMac, iBook and PowerBook sales at all since those are not the top of the line performers anyway and probably will not be affected by the 970 for at least a year after its announcement.

I think there are a lot of people that realize if you wait six months there will always be something better. People still buy what they want/need when they want/need it.

The PowerMac sales right now are not that great and people know/believe something better is coming along in six months. I find it hard to believe many, other than those who simply cannot wait any longer, are buying PowerMacs now anyway. The sales are sinking like a stone and all that can happen is the stone sinks a little faster due to the announcement.

In my opinion, getting the PowerMac 970s in the hands of developers and getting the kinks worked out and apps updated is worth more to Apple than three or four months of even poorer PowerMac sales. I think when IBM is ready to produce 1.8Ghz+ 970s in quantity, Apple wants to be in a position to scream out of the gate. I don't think they want to delay getting machines into the hands of developers simply to save some percentage of three or fours months worth of PowerMac sales.

I agree with that.
I think two more reasons for Apple to shout it from the rooftops:
1) Make potential "back" switchers realize Apple is coming back strongly on the speed front. I bet there a quite a few speed-demons out there (Pixar?) who would WANT a Mac, but NEED a PC, pure for its power. Maybe letting these people know it's coming, they could wait just a couple of months. At least they would know WHEN it's coming, instead of speculating IF it's coming...
2) OK, so PowerMac sales could drop below freezing point.... This could work out to be the PPC 970 PM boiling point sales! (if ya know what i mean). This would mean that whenever the "new" 970 will be relased by Apple, it would be an enormous hit, right away!
I wonder how many MacRumors-readers are waiting for it allready...... These guys would buy the 970 instantaneously! I would :)
 
Originally posted by Gyroscope
Think that these MacBidoul. PPC 970 rumors are absolute crap.
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.

It can work just fine with a point-release, which is always the case with new machines anyway. I've never seen new machines ship with the same version of the OS you can auto-update to... they always have a new build number to support the hardware.
 
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
I wonder how many MacRumors-readers are waiting for it allready...... These guys would buy the 970 instantaneously! I would :)
I would like to buy the 970 instantaneously, too.

Historically: I wait for the model that I'm drooling for to become "discontinued" so that I can save many dollars. I make-do with what I've got until the "clearance sale". I drooled for the Mac that I'm using.

The performance of the Wind-Tunnel MDD's, (and the current MDD's) does not feel all that much greater compared to the quieter QuickSilver-733. A week after the intro of the Wind-Tunnel MDD's, I bought a discontinued QS-733 at clearance prices, and saved a couple hundred dollars from the regular price of the QS-733.

And that was at the Apple Store. The catalog houses were only few dollars different from Apple Store prices.

My QS-733 is still augmented by my 6500/250 upgraded to G3/400.

I can wait for Apple to discontinue the TowerMac with front panel USB and FireWire ports. That computer will have to feel twice as fast as my QS-733, not just some specification number on paper that only Martians appreciate. :D
-
JJ
 
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