PPC970 and WWDC Rumors: Part 2

[seamuskrat]

Re: Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by nighthawk
The way I see it, the Powerbook 12" is the path to replace the iBook line with the G4. Meanwhile, the 15" ALu and 17" will sport the PowerPC 970.

Although supplies were low for the G4 at the beginning -- the main reason why the PowerbookG4 was so much later than the desktop was Power consumption and heat. A couple of revisions were needed to reduce both of these, and still the Powerbook was difficult to engineer.

Now the current 970 1.0ghz only uses 10watts which is less than the current 1.0ghz G4 processor in the Powerbook now. (I have no idea how the 1.0 is configured with bus/clock-mult., but those are the figures on the IBM website). Possibly we will see the 1.35ghz in the Powerbook this year also, but it depends on cost/availablility, and whether or not there is some sort of speed-stepping technology that would work with the 970 (which would make a lot of sense if IBM wants to create blades with it).

I tend to aggree. I think that to remain competative they HAVE to have laptops with new chips in the pro line. We KNOW thorugh the 12 PB that a G4 can be made small and fit in a small package. We can assume that the 970 will be usable in a laptop config but until we see usage specs and such we cannot know fur sure. I have seen some HUGE heat sinks on some chips shown in the literature. Cost of course is another issue.

But Steve did say 2003 was the year of the laptop, so we can only hope that 970 will be seen in laptops before 2004. But logic still dictates that the justnow shipping G4 17 will have to be around for a few (6?) months before going 970.

 

[nighthawk]

Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by seamuskrat
I tend to aggree. I think that to remain competative they HAVE to have laptops with new chips in the pro line. We KNOW thorugh the 12 PB that a G4 can be made small and fit in a small package. We can assume that the 970 will be usable in a laptop config but until we see usage specs and such we cannot know fur sure. I have seen some HUGE heat sinks on some chips shown in the literature. Cost of course is another issue.

But Steve did say 2003 was the year of the laptop, so we can only hope that 970 will be seen in laptops before 2004. But logic still dictates that the justnow shipping G4 17 will have to be around for a few (6?) months before going 970.

Not necessarily, we have no idea how many Apple has made or plans to sell... it was a risk to begin with with such a large screen. A risk that seems to be paying off, especially with HP and one other company coming out with their own 17" versions later this year.

I think the biggest issue reason to switch to the 970 ASAP is because Apple is a "Company of firsts", and the title of the "First 64bit Notebook Computer" will be one of the greatest selling points for Apple... "free" publicity, even though it costs more in R&D and overhead.

As soon as it is technically possible, Apple will come out with the 970 Powerbook. But this does not mean that they will annouce/release it at WWDC. Just annoucing the 970 Pro would meet the requirements of the developers conference, being that it wouldn't matter to the developers if the 970-based machine is a desktop or powerbook. The 970 Powerbook will, therefore, be a surprize public announcement (most likely in late summer), with shipments in the 2-3 week range.

WWDC is still 3 months away... so we have to wait until at least then.

 

[VIREBEL661]

Quad Processors!!!!

Originally posted by strider42
Why "just" duals on the top end?... [/
QUOTE]

Remember the Daystar Genesis??? A very good point you make - make the top end REALLLLLY the TOP END... I mean, since we have a powerful Unix variant for an os - EXPLOIT IT.... Look at IBM's high end Unix workstations... Why shouldn't Apple compete on this level???

Just MHO!!!!

 

[utilizer]

Originally posted by mania
I have to completely disagree. the g4 is way past its prime with its fake ddr and limited clock speeds etc. assuming a 970 ends up in the desktop in june, i bet a 970 will be in the powerbook by january, october if we are lucky. you know once people start experiencing the 970 they will really want it in the powerbook, even if it were at slower speeds.

I'm gonna have to side with you mania. My house mate's 2 Ghz P4 smokes a 1 ghz TiBook, big time in Photoshop. It's an HP and it has the desktop processor in it before any of you ask; no it's not mobile! The machine still gives him hell 'cause it's Windows XP but I've convinced him to switch down to NT/2000 for the added stability.
It's completely ludicrous to me that Apple would even be considering to continue to place the G4 chip in their portables!
This is why I haven't even considered buying any of Apple's product at this time. I'm still on my Pismo 500 mhz G4 and it still is going along alright, nothing stellar.
But hey, when I buy the best, I want to know that that's what I'm getting. It sure does sound like it with these new 970s rolling out. I would trust this source, as I was very skeptical before when Apple didn't drastically change the casing, going from Quicksilver to Wind Tunnels. I was absolutely saddened when it was true and the guy that gave them the blueprints did indeed get caught! So yes, I trust them, even though they're a French site!

 

[utilizer]

Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions

But Steve did say 2003 was the year of the laptop, so we can only hope that 970 will be seen in laptops before 2004. But logic still dictates that the justnow shipping G4 17 will have to be around for a few (6?) months before going 970. [/B]

Logic told us that new PowerBooks wouldn't be released at MWSF since they were updated in November.
It's a different game plan now for Apple.

 

[type_r503]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by nighthawk
Not necessarily, we have no idea how many Apple has made or plans to sell... it was a risk to begin with with such a large screen. A risk that seems to be paying off, especially with HP and one other company coming out with their own 17" versions later this year.

I think the biggest issue reason to switch to the 970 ASAP is because Apple is a "Company of firsts", and the title of the "First 64bit Notebook Computer" will be one of the greatest selling points for Apple... "free" publicity, even though it costs more in R&D and overhead.

As soon as it is technically possible, Apple will come out with the 970 Powerbook. But this does not mean that they will annouce/release it at WWDC. Just annoucing the 970 Pro would meet the requirements of the developers conference, being that it wouldn't matter to the developers if the 970-based machine is a desktop or powerbook. The 970 Powerbook will, therefore, be a surprize public announcement (most likely in late summer), with shipments in the 2-3 week range.

WWDC is still 3 months away... so we have to wait until at least then.

you can get sparc based laptops.

 

[jettredmont]

Re: Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by Shadowfax
I don't think the chip has anything on it to preclude dual processing. the system controller or something like that should decide about DP. the 970 may not be DP on new PMacs when they arrive, but that doesn't mean that there is no way to DP 970s.

"Dual processing" and "dual core" are completely different animals. "Dual core" means a single processor with two sets of logical units, two pipelines, etc (but of course shared cache and FSB between the cores).

In October, IBM described the 970 as being a single-core desktop variant of the Power4. As others have noted on these boards, there's more to a dual-core chip than just adding another core; there's all the support circuitry and logic which also needs to be put in place. Keeping the 970 single-core drastically reduces its complexity and hence reduces production costs.

Until IBM says otherwise, don't expect dual-core 970 chips.

Dual-processor (two separate chips working together) is of course a possibility.

 

[nuckinfutz]

My house mate's 2 Ghz P4 smokes a 1 ghz TiBook, big time in Photoshop

🙄

Ok so you actually want to compare a Desktop to a Portable? Of course the Desktop's going to win....duh...faster HD and 60watt processor.

Now compare a P4 Mobile to a 1Ghz Powerbook and come talk to us about that. 😉

 

[utilizer]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
🙄

Ok so you actually want to compare a Desktop to a Portable? Of course the Desktop's going to win....duh...faster HD and 60watt processor.

Now compare a P4 Mobile to a 1Ghz Powerbook and come talk to us about that. 😉

Apparently I wasn't clear enough.
The HP is a laptop with a desktop processor in it. HP does this consistently with their machines on the higher end, which of course, he has.
So in the words of Donald Rumsfeld, boo-yah! 😎
j/k 😛

 

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by Flynnstone
Since this is a rumor, lets hypothesize on real world performance.
I've heard that the 970 is upto 4 times faster than an equivalent G4. Lets assume 2 times. Front side bus (FSB) is approximately 5 time faster (970@6.4 vs G4@1.3). For bus constrained, 2 times is reasonable. A little apples and oranges, no apples and prunes here😀 . A 1.8 GHz 970 would roughly be equivalent to a 3.6 GHz G4, about 2.9 speed up factor.
Now lets use Adobe's recently released numbers for a P4 @ 3.06 GHZ and a dual G4 1.25GHz. Some say Adobe is not optimized for dual processors, so say a single and dual G4 are the same. The Adobe number for the G4 was 1 minute 25 seconds or 85 seconds. Take the 85 seconds for the G4 @ 1.25 and divide by our speed up factor of 2.9 and we get about 29 seconds.
This is (theoretically) almost twice as fast as a P4@ 3.06GHz.
Cool! 😎

Actually, the 970 is 1.5-2x faster then a G4 at the same speed and the 970 1.8ghz is comparable to a 2.8ghz P4. So a dual 2.3ghz would trash anything current and future 🙂

 

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by utilizer
Apparently I wasn't clear enough.
The HP is a laptop with a desktop processor in it. HP does this consistently with their machines on the higher end, which of course, he has.
So in the words of Donald Rumsfeld, boo-yah! 😎
j/k 😛

As I the sole iBook user in a school full of Wintel laptops, I am the subject of scorn for my choice of such an "inferior" product. The other students with laptop make pains to show off the power of their machines...

Once they lug their 8 lb monster over, that is, and wait the five minutes for it to wake up, then find a power plug because their battery just died. And then they wait for their machine to log onto the network drive wirelessly. Only then do they show me how fast they work on their machine. 😀

In the mean time, my little "useless" 700 mhz iBook keeps puttering along, waking up from sleep instantly and working for hours on end without a recharge. I can get to the network drives thru the wireless faster and easier using Samba in the finder than they can using Win2000. And with all the apps I have in common with my iBook and the school's desktops (Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver MX, etc), I can see no discernable difference.

There's more to working fast than just processor speed. Having an iBook means I work when I want to, where I want to, not where the nearest power outlet is.

 

[darndog]

sounds like pro macs are back

This sound's right, Apple is desperate for speedy chips and the 970's been obviously destined for macs since the inclusion of altivec, even the fab dates tie in.

Back in the day Apple used to have a top machine that was way in front of the rest of the pro range, with price tags to match. If these clock speeds are correct I would not expect the dual 2.3's to be anywhere close to the 1.8's, i'm thinking more like xServe prices.

I also think the G4 'handle' cases are long overdue for a redesign, the consumer lines (iMac, eMac, iBook) are all ice white, the pro stuff (Powerbooks, xServe & Raid) are all metal, the current G4 tower designs don't fit in anywhere. my guess is a vertical xServe, tall and thin with an aluminium (powerbook finish) case.

Jobs says this is the year of the laptop, which means either 'we still don't have a decent chip for our desktops' or 'by the end of the year our laptops will be faster than your desktops', lets hope its the latter.

darndog

 

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by utilizer
Apparently I wasn't clear enough.
The HP is a laptop with a desktop processor in it. HP does this consistently with their machines on the higher end, which of course, he has.
So in the words of Donald Rumsfeld, boo-yah! 😎
j/k 😛

Only if by "higher end" you mean "heavy" and "burn your legs/3rd leg hot," lol. we usually don't count 8-10 lb laptops that are 1.5-2 + inches "thin" as comparable to apple portables, as apple doesn't have a portable in that class (because it believes those aren't truly portables in the spirit of portability).😀 😉 😛

but let's not start this discussion again 😉

 

[barkmonster]

I believe Cheetah was the code name for 10.0

Code names have nothing to do with the product anyway - Apple using Jaguar on released product marketing was a first, as far as I know.

I know apple's naming scheme for the next few years worth of OS X updates 😀

Jaguar - Atari's 64bit console

Panther - Atari's scrapped 32bit console

Lynx - Atari's colour handheld gaming system

it all sort of goes wrong after that with silly names like, Falcon, TT, STe and 2600 that don't make a lot of sense.

 

[Arcady]

Re: I want a time machine... 😀

Originally posted by GeneR
I really want a time machine right now. Go ahead about, oh, a year, grab the newest, "bestest" Powerbook with the newest, "bestest" OSX and come back to the present, and... and... well, have more fun.

😀

Why not go 6 years into the future, buy a 5 year old PowerBook (still 1 year away from now) for like $200, and then come back? If there are plenty of them on eBay in 6 years, then you will also know the thing was built properly...

 

[mathiasr]

Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by seamuskrat
What is fun ti imagine, is that the hypothetical design of the POWER5 derititive (maybe called the 980?!?) could perhaps be dual core. So, in 2 to 3 years we could see dual core/dual processor macs. Confused? heehee

The PowerPC 980 is rumored to be avaible during Q3 2004, in fact Apple could use the POWER5 itself.

NWFusion article about the POWER5

Some quotes :

"The Power5 chip will replace the Power4 across the board, but improvements to the chip design and more attention to heat issues will help the new chip scale further down IBM's server line."

"Amezcua said that each team ultimately does what is right for the company, but that the pSeries team hopes to relegate Itanium to a niche in high-performance computing or better yet exterminate the processor altogether.

Always thickening the plot, IBM_may also throw another lower-end system into the mix by adding a server based on Advanced Micro Devices' 64-bit Opteron processor, Arimilli said. Arimilli claims that once Power5 arrives, it will be IBM's answer for low-end 64-bit computing."

 

[djcobb44]

Remember, this is IBM, not Motorola....

So 2.3Ghz is not out of the question. Lets face it...Motorola had little to gain with their desktop cpu's, not only does IBM use these cpu's in their workstations, but it will compete with the wintel world and Unix/Linux servers too. So R&D with this family of chips will be greatly improved compared to moto(slow)a's half rear efforts.

 

[rice_web]

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20030224/asetek_vapochill-13.html

Not to sound like the "PC Weenie," but the new batch of P4s, due any week now, will boast an impressive 800MHz cache (the 2.2GHz P4 with the 800MHz system bus slaughters the 3.0GHz P4 with a 533MHz bus).

But....

More importantly, it houses 1MB L2 cache, as opposed to the 512K in the current P4s.

So, the prospective benchmarks are quite worthless. However, I will add that SPEC is virtually the worst way to measure a processor (and a 4x jump in SPEC scores does not mean a 4x jump in performance; chips can be built to "cheat" at SPEC).

 

[nuckinfutz]

Rice

Daunting indeed. Prescott has the potential to be pretty stout. I think it could be the processor to send AMD back to the outhouse. That Toms Hardware article shows us exactly why these new PPC 970(boy am I optimistic) need to come sooner rather than later. Apple can beat Microsoft as far as OS innovation but the hardware must stay close.

Boy 2004 is going to have some wicked computers.

Apple suprise me....please suprise me!

 

[rice_web]

Oh wow, I'm getting to close to having an avatar....

Anyhow, Intel will release this update to the P4 very shortly, while the 970 will be in PowerMacs (optimistically, in my opinion) in late August, and there is no guarantee of a victory in the speed race.

I think it's unfortunate; these WWDC-announced processors seem unlikely to me, and even they may not suffice.

 

[AidenShaw]

64-bit laptops have been around for years

Originally posted by nighthawk
and the title of the "First 64bit Notebook Computer" will be one of the greatest selling points for Apple...

Tadpole (http://hw.tadpole.com/html/) has been selling 64-bit SPARC and Alpha laptops for years.

 

[shadowfax]

Re: 64-bit laptops have been around for years

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Tadpole (http://hw.tadpole.com/html/) has been selling 64-bit SPARC and Alpha laptops for years.

WOW. 650 MHz maybe, but jeez, 4 GB of RAM and 120 GB of HDD space. that's a workhorse!

 

[Frobozz]

I Don't know...

Originally posted by rice_web
Anyhow, Intel will release this update to the P4 very shortly, while the 970 will be in PowerMacs (optimistically, in my opinion) in late August, and there is no guarantee of a victory in the speed race.

Well, I don't know about you... but I'd rather be (initially) 10% behind instead of 50% behind. The 970 and 980 will ramp up in speed very rapidly. I think the future's so bright, I'll have to wear shades.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

cache speeds

Originally posted by rice_web
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20030224/asetek_vapochill-13.html

Not to sound like the "PC Weenie," but the new batch of P4s, due any week now, will boast an impressive 800MHz cache (the 2.2GHz P4 with the 800MHz system bus slaughters the 3.0GHz P4 with a 533MHz bus).

But....

More importantly, it houses 1MB L2 cache, as opposed to the 512K in the current P4s.

So, the prospective benchmarks are quite worthless. However, I will add that SPEC is virtually the worst way to measure a processor (and a 4x jump in SPEC scores does not mean a 4x jump in performance; chips can be built to "cheat" at SPEC).

What speed are the current G4's L3 cache's at?
EveryMac.com says 1/2 the processor seed, but has a "?" next to that.

If that's true, and they use DDR on the cache then that would be, effectively, 1.42 GHz cache memory bus speed!?!?! (I find that hard to beleive)

Does anyone have hard numbers for this?

Apple's pages are strangely silent on this, except to say that they provide 4GBs.

 

[steve53e]

Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by Frobozz
WOW. You missed the point, didn't you? 🙂

A 2.3 Ghz 970 is roughly equivalent to a G4 at twice that speed. How is 4 Ghz for ya? Just as you can not translate a P4 to a G4 in Mhz, you can't translate a G4 to a 970 easily. (though I tried)

Nope. Didn't miss the point at all. I'm well aware of everything you're saying. I'm just waiting for a machine that meets MY desired specifications before I buy another one. I waited for Apple to hit my price point on the 23" HDCD. Now I'm waiting for them to hit my spec point for a computer. That's all.