Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I hope Psystar fail, I think the EULA is both fair and legally sound. Mac hardware being Apple exclusive helps fund development of OS X, and means we don't have to deal with stupid activation processes etc...

If all you see is a cheap Mac 'clone' you're missing the bigger picture. Why do you want to run OS X? Because it's good, right? Apple selling less hardware makes OS X being good less likely in the future.
 
As far as I can see, he didn't make any legal claims himself. Just because he isn't a lawyer doesn't suddenly make your uninformed legal opinions any more valid.

I figure he was not a lawyer, his statmments here can get him in trouble.

No he is telling us we are all wrong but providing no information and no counter point, therefore no value.

Not sure why you defending him. He's your girl?
 
if psystar succeeded then i bet every other companies like dell, hp,acer, msi will start making computer with mac-compatibility feature. how ridiculous :Yawn:
 
I guess my point, which I tried to make in the original thread yesterday morning, is that we don't know what anything means. None of these EULA's have really been tested in court. On top of that, you can find just as many legal authorities advocating for their legality as against.

There is a difference between an end user and a company. Let's say you have an old PC at home and decide to install MacOS X. You go to a shop and buy a copy of Leopard. You don't read the EULA, and you manage to install it on your PC. Apple finds out and drags you to court.

Apple: You are in breach of the EULA which states you can only install the software on a Macintosh.
You: But I'm only a poor old end user who didn't read the EULA and didn't know what I'm doing.
Judge: He is just a poor old end user who didn't read the EULA. Go away, Apple.

Apple: You are in breach of the EULA which states you can only install the software on a Macintosh.
Psystar: But I am just a poor old company that tries to make money by undercutting Apple and shipping my computers with a copy of Leopard, which according to the EULA may not be installed on my computers, but that's why the end user has to do it himself so I can get around this...
Judge: PsyStar, you are a company. You should have talked to your lawyers first. If you didn't, or if they gave you bad advice, that's your problem. Your whole business depends on making money from Apple's good name, and on inducing people to breach the EULA of Apple's software. Stop selling your computers, stop selling Leopard, and pay Apple lots of damages.
 
Dear Mr. Jobs,
If you are listening, we have spoken. Resurrect the Cube.
cube.jpg


~Users
 
Some people missing a very important point

Apple may charge a lot and some argue it's for the quality of the product and while that may be true that's not really the point. They make such a high percentage off of their machines so they can have the money to create new things and develop stuff that nobody has done yet. You think if they had an operating margin of 10% rather than 30% they'd have the money (and the balls) to divert so much attention to the iPhone or the iPod Touch or their multi-touch patent. All of that R&D costs money. If apple is forced to start selling stuff at a lower margin you might get a cheaper computer but in the end all consumers will end up paying for it because when money dries up experimental R&D is the first thing to go...
 
actually not really .. since the restriction to install on only one computer with the normal one is only in the EULA it is perfectly legal to install on as many computers as you want no matter what (for a private person)

If you don't accept the EULA on a Family Pack, the second copy that you make is copyright infringement. You have the choice (in Europe): Reject the EULA and fall back on plain copyright law, which allows you one copy on _any_ computer. Or accept the EULA which allows you five copies, but only on Macs (and some further restrictions).

It would be different if the Family Pack shipped with five individual DVDs. Then you could reject the EULA and install each DVD on any one computer.
 
Just because you agree to a conract doesn't make it enforceable, some rights cannot be signed away. Example:

Many HOA (Home Ownerships Associations), don't allow for the instalations of antenas or sat dishes, and have provisions in the contract that you signed saying yo want install them. The reality is such provisions are null and voided because you can't sign this right away. This has upheld in many courts including federal appeals courts.

The EULA could be similar, the right to install the software on non-apple machines might not be a right you can just sign away.
 
When you agree to the EULA, aren't you essentially signing a contract? If you break the EULA, you are breaking the contract....and thus Apple is entitled to damages based on that and/or you are then prohibited from using the software (i.e. OSX)?

If "you" is a company, then yes. If "you" is an end user, then european laws will protect you from the consequences because you are just a poor end user who cannot be expected to know better.
 
if psystar succeeded then i bet every other companies like dell, hp,acer, msi will start making computer with mac-compatibility feature. how ridiculous :Yawn:

Well i think its MSi which are about to bring out a EFI compaitble mbd soon anyways.....!
 
This is not the same as leasing it. Leasing implies that at some point you lose your rights to use the software. Under most EULAs that doesn't happen. Now, there are some pieces of software out there that are licensed under a lease not a sale model. Personally, I'm not a fan of these. But, at this point, neither Windows nor OS X are licensed this way.

You're correct. My use of the word lease was wrong.
 
When you agree to the EULA, aren't you essentially signing a contract? If you break the EULA, you are breaking the contract....and thus Apple is entitled to damages based on that and/or you are then prohibited from using the software (i.e. OSX)?

True, but there are some things that you can't agree to in a contract (general rights, etc..., think non-compete contracts and what does and doesn't hold up in court). I think this is where a challenge could be made. If you leased a Ford and part of the contract said you could only get your oil changed at a Ford dealership which charges 2-3x as much as Jiffy Lube, can that hold up in court? I think Ford could make your warranty dependent on it (not sure about that one tho), but I don't think they could come and sue you for damages when you head off to Jiffy Lube.

I'm not sure a case like that has ever even been tested, which is why it will be interesting to see if Psystar will actually goes through with it and to see their argument.
 
Dear Mr. Jobs,
If you are listening, we have spoken. Resurrect the Cube.
cube.jpg


~Users


That post, and the ones that have noted that this thread is a trainwreck, waste of bandwidth, etc. are the the few worth paying attention to. If people want to continue, let's narrow it down: anyone who's not a lawyer, or very well grounded in copyright law and related issues, are excused. Anyone who thinks software is like a car, or those who think because they bought something they may use it however they want, can go back to skating on the mall.
 
If "you" is a company, then yes. If "you" is an end user, then european laws will protect you from the consequences because you are just a poor end user who cannot be expected to know better.

In the USA, ignorance of the law is rarely a good defense. FYI, if you ever end up in court :)
 
From open mac to open computer? Should have called it Alt-X which stands for alternate os x instead.
 
Well, should this company succeed, the next step is for Apple to burn their OS into a chip (flash or something) that makes it PART of the computer instead of a separate system.

Getting around that would be like Ford saying that they should have access to Toyota's ignition chip because it should be open technology.

I can see Apple going this route. As long as we see more MBAs lacking the cd drive. OS upgrades could be sold on USB thumbdrives that flash the OS chip on the logic board. And all your harddrive would have is the Users and Library folder.
 
I figure he was not a lawyer, his statmments here can get him in trouble.

No he is telling us we are all wrong but providing no information and no counter point, therefore no value.

Not sure why you defending him. He's your girl?

After an intelligent ad hominem attack like that, your comments drop to the bottom of the list on the credibility scale.

And again, just because someone is pointing out you don't know the law (and yet you're here acting like you do), pointing out THEY don't have a law degree either doesn't increase the value of your posts. By your own logic, your posts have no value either.
 
That post, and the ones that have noted that this thread is a trainwreck, waste of bandwidth, etc. are the the few worth paying attention to. If people want to continue, let's narrow it down: anyone who's not a lawyer, or very well grounded in copyright law and related issues, are excused. Anyone who thinks software is like a car, or those who think because they bought something they may use it however they want, can go back to skating on the mall.


Sort of like unlocking the iPhone? :eek:

(runs for cover....)
 
EULA's are completely valid and legal as long as the user has the opportunity to reject it / accept it BEFORE they install it.

In the legal field, this is referred to as a "click-wrap" agreement if it's when you click and install or a "shrink-wrap" agreement when it's on the package and you have to get through the agreement to open the package.

In short, anything in the EULA is enforceable and will take a court to overrule and amend.

I'm not an expert but I am a law student.

i'm not from the US and didn't write about the US law in my post

please read my post again BEFORE writing anything ;)
 
I think that having competition can only be a good thing for the end users. Not only will it bring down prices for us, it will also inspire Apple to make better and better computers that can’t be copied easily....and for less cost to our bottom line:D
 
After an intelligent ad hominem attack like that, your comments drop to the bottom of the list on the credibility scale.

And again, just because someone is pointing out you don't know the law (and yet you're here acting like you do), pointing out THEY don't have a law degree either doesn't increase the value of your posts. By your own logic, your posts have no value either.

Where did I state I knew the law, please show me.
Why do you defend him, he does not have a voice?
 
Lets see your License to practice law.

People are discussing what "If", and they are having fun at it, they are working thru the logic and the possibilities.

You are so smart and know it all, show us your license to practice law and tell us what is right, or are you afraid that we will tear your "truth" apart?


Obviously you are not a lawyer because you do not read. I assume you skim. If I was a lawyer, I would not state it here because then ignorant people (you) would take what I say as legal advice. That would be very bad lawyering.

I am not sitting on a high horse here saying that I am so smart. Please, I am not... What I am saying is that THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. Please READ, then COMMENT. It has never been tested -- we don't know. And there are just as many arguments for as against.

We should all feel free to discuss, but to put others down on their thoughts based on what you think the law dictates....it's just not helpful.

It is kinda fun though...
 
Why is it so unreasonable that Apple wishes to protect their business model.

Leopard isn't $129 because that's what Leopard costs. Leopard costs $129 because it runs on hardware purchased from Apple, and the price takes into effect the hardware profits as well. This is quite well understood, I thought.

Apple doesn't make any money on hardware selling me a copy of 10.5 for a machine I already own, Apple branded or not. They've already made every dime they are going to on the hardware sale before I decided to buy Leopard. When looking at an "upgrade" purchase like a retail OS, hardware profits don't enter into whatsoever.

They want to claim they made all the money they are going to make on the iPod touch at the moment of sale, and so then be "required" to charge for software updates down the road, and most people here seem to support that. They can't have the reverse for the Mac because it's convenient for them.

I am of the opinion (and seem to be in the minority?) that if I buy and pay for something (in this case OS X) I should be able to put it on whatever machine I want to.

However, I don't agree that a third party company (Psystar) should be able to sell their machine for profit with someone else's (Apple's) operating system installed without their permission to do so.

Now, if Psystar wants to sell me a system that has the ability to run OS X, I'm OK with that as long as I'm the one who is paying for and installing the operating system.

I gave this a positive vote simply because I think Apple has become greedy and is demanding way too much a premium for what you actually get. Where's my Blue Ray? Why is Apple RAM so expensive? Maybe a few more of these "Cloners" could perhaps force Apple to take a look at what they're doing. I doubt it but, maybe.:rolleyes:

Should Best Buy be allowed to charge you for the service of installing a new OS on your computer for you? That's, in effect, what's going on here. You are buying a computer from them. You are buying a copy of OSX from Apple (although they may be acting as a reseller, which is a 100% protected right under First Sales doctrine), and you are paying them for the SERVICE of performing a software install for you.

The first statement is a complete oxymoron. The reason there IS a great experience with the OS is not only the OS itself but the solid hardware base on which its built. Apple could sell cheap crappy computers like Dell and thats what you'd get, a cheap crappy computer.

Not really. Apple sells low to mid-range PCs of a very specific feature set. They then install software that works with that feature set. If someone else builds a machine with the same hardware configuration, which we know is easily possible, you're level of hardware/software integration should be the same. If it's not, it's an intentional gimping of the software by Apple.

Apple has about 14 billion more dollars in the bank than Psystar, including a full-time legal team. It's very clear who will win this case... if it makes it that far.
Which doesn't speak to the actual legality of this case, and is more a sad statement about the state of the American legal system than anything else.

conspiracy to break EULA is one way to get around this
Conspiracy connotes a crime. Contract violation isn't a criminal case, it's a civil matter. I don't think you could claim conspiracy in a civil court... IANAL, though.

I mean, if this works out for Psystar and it turns out they can do this, Dell or HP is going to march in slap them with a marketing campaign that will make people go Psy-who?

Wouldn't be worth it for the big names. It's clearly a hobbiest target market and since they wouldn't be able to offer their "world class support" (ya, I know, I know, but that's what the corporate logic would be) they wouldn't have much incentive to do it.


To put OS X on anything short of a premium machine is begging for trouble with the user. Yes, I'd like to be able to install OS X on a machine I build myself, but anything less is nothing but a mistake.
If that were true (which I don't believe it is) it would be a huge testament to just how crappy of software OSX is (which I know isn't true). The simple matter is that Macs are pretty much middle of the road hardware wise, especially after the Intel switch. They're getting the same components as everyone else, and have about the same hardware failure rate.

What they do have is a very small group of potential hardware configurations to support, so they are able to really focus the software to improve stability, security and reliability. Putting that same software on a machine that, while not built by Apple, has the same components installed should, and does, typically result in it functioning much like "the real thing". Any issues that do arise are entirely artificial ones created by Apple's attempts to lock their software down.

What Apple needs to do, since I really don't think they can win this case on its merit (they might win it through throwing money at it, which isn't a win, just a delay of fighting the battle with someone else), is start selling two versions of retail OSX. One as an "upgrade" box that can be installed as an upgrade to a previous version of OSX for $129 or better $99 and a full install that they can charge whatever they want for - say $399. Want to install OSX on your own hardware? Give us $400 and go to town.

As much as I love Apple's products, and I'm willing to pay a premium for them, I'm growing more and more frustrated with their business practices with each passing month. And, on a related note, as much as I love the Mac community for it's, typically, intellegent, thoughtful members, I'm growing more and more disgusted with the rabid fanboyism with each passing month.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.