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I’ve been reading this thread with interest. Most of the replies are not based on legal facts. In spite of what you may think, Apple is in a weak position here. Apple will probably prevail but that won’t be because they have the law on their side. They will prevail because they will make the cost of litigation so expensive for PsyStar that PsyStar will settle with Apple.

Blah blah blah. Yadda yadda yad.

I think that was a great post. However, I think that if Apple attack they may use the DMCA.

I haven't heard much about the DMCA lately and I don't know what its current status is, but I am pretty sure that one component of that legislation makes it illegal to circumvent any digital protection mechanism.

OS X has code that checks for genuine Apple hardware - Hackintosh computers have to purposefully circumvent those routines. I am pretty certain that violates the DMCA.

I'll just add my comments to the mix in terms of how viable this computer is:

Hackintosh is far more reliable than most people realize - a lot of commenters are saying that kernel updates will break the system, but that isn't true. The Hackintosh looks like a genuine apple computer to the kernel, and updates work just fine. The Kexts are drivers for hardware that the Apple supplied drivers don't support. They are mostly derived from BSD and they just work.

Non SSE3 computers and computers without the clever BIOS do need a special version of the Mach kernel, and these will break with each Apple update.

The Trusted Platform Module (TPM) is the 'security chip' that some people here have referred to, but it is not used by Apple to verify Genuine Apple hardware, nor is it really designed to do that. Certain recent Apple Macs don't even feature that chip.
 
I hope Psystar fails

Well alot of people might criticise me but i'm going to say it anyways, i hope Psystar fails. I think if they win they'll will open the doors wide open for thousands of other companys to try and make money out of Apples Operating System and that will lead to alot of problems and i think Apple in order to save their good image and keep their slogan " It just works " they'll have to start using their man power to make Mac OS a little more reliable to all those "OpenMacs" and we, Legit Mac owners that made an effort to pay that extra money for something that works will start to feel the "pain" because all the attention we're used to, for example this constante updates and fixes that makes Mac Os such a nice thing to use, will start to fade and Apple will sink cause neither they Original Mac users or the New Pseud Mac users will be happy. But that's just me, what do i know about the business.

P.S: I'm not saying they're not Expensive, they are, but come on what good things in life aren't ? My opinion, Make the extra effort, save up another 2 months or pay 2 extra montly installments, trust me u won't regret it.

P.S.2: On the legal side of the issue i think apple spent alot of money devloping their software,techonogy i think they are allowed to be the only ones to profit out of it and i'm sure with the money they have they'll get a good enough lawyer to show that to a judge. Imagine if car company made a car that just used all the good techonolgy they stole out of mercedes and bmw's and so on, they'd save tons of money on reasearch and i think that's just lazy.
 
A couple of random thoughts from the many, many points thrown up thus far.

To all the people who are saying "Why is Apple afraid of the competition?" ... Are none of you old enough to remember the clones?

Great for the consumer, in the short run, because you could get a much better deal than Apple themselves were offering. The Umax machines, in particular, were quite splendid and came with a two year on-site warranty, if memory serves.

Not so great in the long run, since the clones were a contributing factor to a disastrous business model that drove Apple close to the point of collapse. How much is a good deal worth, if it means that the company responsible for the reason you bought the machine -- the operating system -- goes out of business?

As for those wheeling out barely appropriate analogies and berating Apple for not allowing OSX to run on non-Apple hardware ...

How are you enjoying Halo on your Playstation? Oh ... you're not. Why? Because Microsoft are trying to link a software experience with a hardware package, just the same as Sony do with their exclusive titles.

Apple don't owe you a $300 Mac, nor are they obliged to license their IP to other companies, because you don't want to buy their hardware.

Cheers

Jim
 
"Originally Posted by mccldwll
Suggest everyone pay close attention to newbies and other somewhat recent joiners. Many of these have absolutely nothing good to say about apple products. Why are they here? Many are from paid to post spin groups like Enderle or Dvorak and their minions, and some are working for hedge funds-- creating arguments which can be picked up and reposted on financial sites and elsewhere. This is a very big money game where small stock price movements can result in $$$$ gains in the options market. With so much at stake, they leave no stone unturned. The intent is to move the price of apple stock, which has experienced extreme volatility since January. Many of these clowns started showing up all over the place in January."

Oh, this is perfect! I owned Apples LONG BEFORE YOU WERE BORN, kid. I owned a clone the first time around. You couldn't have possibly proved my point about your cultist status any better than with this answer, I do appreciate your confirmation.

The Kool-Aid is getting warm, please enjoy it now.


Your delusion of superiority is again confirmed. And I'm fairly certain that I was using computers before you were born, or at least while you were still getting pushed around on the playground.
 
Much as I think that the price for a Mac is high, I strongly disagree with Psystar's behavior and attitude (and motivation)..

If they think a Mac should only cost $399, why don't they try to come up with the machine and the OS all by themselves and see how much they will charge for the bundle?

To me, they're just trying to find a way to harvest on other's hardwork. I really feel surprised that they dare to speak out so loud to defend themeselves.
 
I’ve been reading this thread with interest. Most of the replies are not based on legal facts. In spite of what you may think, Apple is in a weak position here. .........................


Yet another example of why this entire thread is a waste of bandwidth. The issues are legal, and a layman's analysis, while it may sound credible, is not. It's like believing something you hear on talk radio or Faux News.
 
The sale of the Mac OS implies that the customer already has a Mac to install it in, which means that the customer has previously payed for Apple's previous revision of OSX and Mac hardware. It is, essentially, only licensed as an upgrade to an existing system, much like the Windows "upgrades" that require a previous version to have been installed. The price of OSX as a stand-alone OS would probably be somewhere at or above $200, assuming enough high-volume sales.
What have they done that is "illegal"? The EULA is a legally binding contract no matter how you slice it, unless local or federal law determines otherwise. They broke a legally-binding contract. Civil suits are still lawsuits, particularly when the law is not definitely clear for a specific situation.

And yes, it is PsyStar who is suing Apple for the EULA, so PsyStar is fighting within California judicial jurisdiction. So, it's not that they have necessarily broken a law, they are preemptively challenging the possible existence of an unfavorable (for PsyStar) legal ruling. Read the article before commenting.

Waffell911, I understand your arguments but they are not legally sound. The court could care less about who’s driving what on which road. If this goes to litigation, the court will decide it based on law.

The EULA applies to the END user. Apple will have to convince a court that PsyStar is the End User. While that may seem obvious to you, from a legal perspective it is a significant point that Apple will have to prove. If PsyStar is not an End User, the EULA is worthless. PsyStar will argue that they are a system integrator not the end user. And the fact that they sell the systems to others is a difficult fact that Apple will have to argue around in court. So to say that PsyStar broke a 'legally binding' contract assumes two things:

1. That the EULA is legally binding. This will take a court to decide.

2. That PsyStart is an END USER who is bound by the terms of the EULA. Again, it will take a court to decide and Apple has to prove it.

If you review the case law surrounding EULAs you will find that no court in the USA has ruled that EULA shrink-wrap licenses are totally binding. The cases that have been decided involve the legality of sections of such licenses. If you know of a case that address EULAs in general I'd love to read it.

You state: The sale of the Mac OS implies that the customer already has a Mac to install it in, which means that the customer has previously paid for Apple's previous revision of OSX and Mac hardware. It is, essentially, only licensed as an upgrade to an existing system, much like the Windows "upgrades" that require a previous version to have been installed.

This is absolutely false. You can have a Mac computer that has only OS 8 or OS 9 on it and buy a copy of OSX and install it. This I did with my B&W G3. I plunked down my $129 and received a copy of OSX which I installed on the B&W G3. No previous copy of OSX was present or required. The EULA says nothing about any requirement to have a previous copy of OSX installed. It is sold as a complete stand alone OS. Apple will never try to argue this in court; they would get hammered.

Nobody has sued anyone yet that I am aware of. PsyStar has not filed suit in California. It is unlikely that PsyStar will file a pre-emptive lawsuit, especially in California. If they do decided to file a preemptive-lawsuit they would ask for judicial relief in their local jurisdiction. As I said before the ball is in Apple’s court and we will have to wait to see how they will proceed.
 
Waffell911, I understand your arguments but they are not legaly sound. The EULA applies to the END user. Apple will have to convince a court that PsyStar is the End User. While that may seem obvious to you, from a legal perspective it is a significant point that Apple will have to prove. If PsyStar is not an End User, the EULA is worthless. PsyStar will argure that they are a system intergrator not the end user. And the fact that they sell the systems to others is a difficult fact that Apple will have to argue in court. So to say that PsyStar broke a 'legally binding' contract assumes two things:

Your legal conclusions are flawed. You are not a lawyer. Correct?
 
Reciprocal

Why all being so protective for Apple? :eek:
As Mac HW users we WANT to be able to run Windows applications, why do we behave like cross-platform hogs and not adopt a more reciprocal attitude?

Ok, Micros~1 Windows is DESIGNED to run on an "open" WINtel platform, but that does not mean it does work flawlesly on all IBM-"compatible" HW.
Steve "certifies" his HW by inserting a physical Apple-Trusted-HW-chip. OS X checks if this chip is available and if present, Steve guarantees the functionality of the SW.
If anybody wants to install OS X on a non-trusted-by-Steve-platform, let OS X generate a pop-up with a warning/ anoyance text ... in the same way I keep getting the Micros~1 Windows Security Alerts.

Forget the lawyers and legal mambo-jambo: if people are willing to pay for OS X while not paying for the "trusted-chip" let them do so at their own risk.

Greetings from the Low Lands.
 
Your legal conclusions are flawed. You are not a lawyer. Correct?

My conclusion is that it will take a court to decide if there is a breech of the EUAL. How is that flawed?

No, I am not a lawyer. If you are a lawyer I would love to hear your opinion as to how Apple will get it’s EULA enforced on PsyStar.
 
My conclusion is that it will take a court to decide if there is a breech of the EUAL. How is that flawed?

No, I am not a lawyer. If you are a lawyer I would love to hear your opinion as to how Apple will get it’s EULA enforced on PsyStar.

I am, and a shoot from the hip opinion is a waste of everyone's time. It might be a fun exercise for some law students, but otherwise of little worth.
 
i hope this shakes apple a bit. having some competition is healthy, and mac users will profit with it. let the apple's fan boys continue to whine... (baby cry, muaha)

oh well... ;)
 
i hope this shakes apple a bit. having some competition is healthy, and mac users will profit with it. let the apple's fan boys continue to whine... (baby cry, muaha)

oh well... ;)

The only party I can see with the potential to "profit" from this is Psystar, which is using the works of Apple and the OSx86 group to gain "advantage" in the marketplace for their "systems." The really strange thing about this is that anyone with 1/2 a clue can buy a copy of OS X and go to the "usual places" to obtain what is required to install the OS on compatible hardware. It would seem that Psystar's market is apparently geared towards those people "totally without a clue"...(?)
 
Exactly. Thanks.

Yet another example of why this entire thread is a waste of bandwidth. The issues are legal, and a layman's analysis, while it may sound credible, is not. It's like believing something you hear on talk radio or Faux News.

And what really ticks me off is how adamantly they state their uninformed opinion---it's almost like a reverse ratio of knowledge to bombast.
 
they had to purchase the licence for the old version so basically every single Mac user bought OS X at least once.
As you know, there are different flavors of OS X: 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 and 10.5.

You pay for the current OS that is installed on your Mac when you buy it. Any upgrade would cost you the price of the new OS. So if you purchased a computer with 10.3 installed, when you upgraded to 10.4 and then to 10.5, you would have paid for the OS each time.

Right now, Apple makes it easy to install with no license code entry. Personally, I don't want to see that change so that it is like Windows.
 
If you lookup WHOIS on the domain, you can see that the domain at least has been registered since 2000:

Registrant:
RP
3401 SW 104 CT
Miami, FL 33165
US

Domain Name: PSYSTAR.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Pedraza, Rodolfo
rp@PSYSTAR.COM
PSYSTAR CORPORATION
3401 SW 104 CT
Miami, FL 33165
US
3053566666 fax: 3053575555 <-fake contacts (against WHOIS requirements)

Record expires on 13-Jan-2009.
Record created on 13-Jan-2000.
Database last updated on 16-Apr-2008 11:40:43 EDT.

Google Map Satellite View of "PSYSTAR.COM Corporation" puts it in a residential neighborhood
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-...um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title

Won't be surprised if it's an unemployed guy who hasn't even built one yet.
 
Can't even process credit cards

"Thank you for visiting Psystar. We're sorry but the store is temporarily down due to the fact that we are currently unable to process any credit card transactions .Please send an e-mail to support@psystar.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it with the subject line UPDATE so that we can update you when the store comes back online."
 
How are you enjoying Halo on your Playstation? Oh ... you're not. Why? Because Microsoft are trying to link a software experience with a hardware package, just the same as Sony do with their exclusive titles.

That has no bearing on the current debate. If the PS3 and the Xbox360 were running the same hardware, I'm sure there would be an attempt to get Halo 3 to whichever platform didn't have it.

Apple lost the justification to limit OSX to only the hardware it sells when it switched to Intel. You can claim all you want that Apple is trying to "link a software experience with a hardware package" but it still remains that the hardware is the same as every other Intel-based PC out there. There hasn't been a Mac-specific hardware package since the G5.
 
With each passing minute looks like it's just some pipe dream for those who want a superior product (Mac OS X) but wants to pay knockoff prices for a "genuine Rolexx" (yes I know it's spelled Rolex)

- lack of product
- lack of an actual store
- lack of legal rights to use OS X
- lack of legal rights to include EFI emulator

EFI emulator cannot be used for commercial purposes.
http://netkas.org/?p=62
 
Apple lost the justification to limit OSX to only the hardware it sells when it switched to Intel.

They don't need a justification. You don't have to justify to me what you do with your own property. Likewise Apple don't have to justify to you what they do with their own property, OS X.
 
Psystar seems fly by night operation

See AppleInsider investigation into the company.
Seems nobody ever heard of them and they just have a guy answering the phone.

I wonder if they will deliver any computers or run with the money.
 
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