Qualcomm Asks China to Stop Manufacturing and Selling iPhones via New Lawsuits

[dampfnudel]

They're quite happy to do so... when it's a Chinese company that holds the IP.

Exactly, China will usually only act when it's one of their own. Sometimes, I think some of the negative, "we'll do what we have to even if it's illegal and/or unethical when it's in our benefit" behavior we see coming from China has rubbed off on Apple. Maybe that's what can happen when you're joined at the hip with a "dubious" character such as China.

 

[Glideslope]

I keep hearing in my head the Eagles singing “Desparado.”
[doublepost=1507929754][/doublepost]

Guessing this is the indication Apple will never use Qualcomm components ASAP, ever - and Qualcomm has realized it...cause they surely have burned the future bridges / orders here.

This wouldn't be without temptation for China and its government. China's droid mfrs would probably benefit in the end here....they have a huge number of Android mfrs that would sell more in such a case and the govt there is very involved with their industry (and quashing out foreign competition when the opportunity arises).

Preventing further production would a be a easy sucker punch to Apple (temporary of course) - could you imagine...no more 7 / 8 / X production before Xmas while "they study the issues"... Be interesting to see if China's govt takes the bait on this.

If it were Samsung I could go with you on this. They won’t do it with Apple.
[doublepost=1507929857][/doublepost]

Qualcomm's LTE modems are the best, hands down. Highest performance, lowest power consumption.

.......... for now.

 

[tooltalk]

No, I think what you meant to say is:

“I’m going to ignore all the times Samsung lost or had to drop their cases, and then selectively pick a few cases they won to try and make a point. I’ll also ignore the dozens of Samsung executives that have been charged and gone to prison (including two CEOs) and the numerous times they’ve been found guilty of price fixing and other illegal activities. This way I can pretend Apple is just as bad.”
[doublepost=1507928286][/doublepost]

I think I pointed out that Apple lost all their cases against Samsung in Germany and got sanctioned in the UK for *lying* and *disobeying* the court order. Most their frivolous patents claims against Samsung likewise got thrown out of courts everywhere; which led Apple to drop *all non-US* cases. Oh let's not forget the time when Apple got caught price fixing ebooks a few years ago with publishers and spanked again for orchestrating anti-poaching, etc, etc.. Too bad that Apple couldn't buy off Obama to avoid those charges like they did with Samsung where Obama reversed Apple's legal defeat.

Let's pretend that none of these happened. Apple good, everyone else bad.

Now, if you want to sound like a grown up, you've asked to clarify the difference legal argument used in Qualcomm's new case in China vs Qualcomm's anti-trust/competition violations in China/South Korea/Taiwan. The answer here is these two cases are not related at all and share no legal arguments.

 

[ke-iron]

I don't know if Qualcomm thinks they are invincible or what but all these aggressive lawsuits are just going to expedite Apple's desire to replace their modems entirely.

Exactly what I was thinking. This is an opportunity for Intel to pick up the ball, as long as they can meet Apple demand in both quantity and wireless capabilities, Qualcomm will no doubt be parted from one of their highest paying customers. Lord forgive Qualcomm for they no not what they have done.

Can someone explain to me what Qualcomm has to do with apple 3D Touch/ force touch in screens?
[doublepost=1507931933][/doublepost]

Guessing this is the indication Apple will never use Qualcomm components ASAP, ever - and Qualcomm has realized it...cause they surely have burned the future bridges / orders here.

This wouldn't be without temptation for China and its government. China's droid mfrs would probably benefit in the end here....they have a huge number of Android mfrs that would sell more in such a case and the govt there is very involved with their industry (and quashing out foreign competition when the opportunity arises).

Preventing further production would a be a easy sucker punch to Apple (temporary of course) - could you imagine...no more 7 / 8 / X production before Xmas while "they study the issues"... Be interesting to see if China's govt takes the bait on this.

This would be very bad for economies around the world. This would give cause to Apple having to manufacture iPhones in the US, a move that will be extremely costly for Apple and China as well. China would see the instant unemployment of hundreds of thousands of their own people if Apple is not allowed to make phones or companies who make components for them. Apple pays for R&D and tons of other stuff for their suppliers in China, imagine that come to a complete halt.

 

[deanthedev]

I think I pointed out that Apple lost all their cases against Samsung in Germany and got sanctioned in the UK for *lying* and *disobeying* the court order. Most their frivolous patents claims against Samsung likewise got thrown out of courts everywhere; which led Apple to drop *all non-US* cases. Oh let's not forget the time when Apple got caught price fixing ebooks a few years ago with publishers and spanked again for orchestrating anti-poaching, etc, etc.. Too bad that Apple couldn't buy off Obama to avoid those charges like they did with Samsung where Obama reversed Apple's legal defeat.

Let's pretend that none of these happened. Apple good, everyone else bad.

Now, if you want to sound like a grown up, you've asked to clarify the difference legal argument used in Qualcomm's new case in China vs Qualcomm's anti-trust/competition violations in China/South Korea/Taiwan. The answer here is these two cases are not related at all and share no legal arguments.

Apparently you missed the sarcasm in my original post. Of course these are different cases. Qualcomm has lost billions in antitrust cases related specifically to their dispute with Apple - licensing fees regarding cellular modems. So now Qualcomm is trying to bring up some unrelated patents to try and squeeze out a victory because of how horribly they’re losing cases related to their main business (modems).

I’m not pretending any Apple cases where they lost have never happened. What you’re doing is cherry picking cases Apple lost to make a point (and failing miserably). If you want to compare Apple and Samsung you have to list ALL cases each has been in, and not just the few that support your narrative.

And if you do that you’ll see Samsung and Apple are in a completely different league, with Samsung on the losing side.

 

[deckard666]

Qualcom, in contrast to Timmy Cook's Apple, actually invents and manufactures.

Funny then I don't see them heading to trillion dollar status shortly and much like Trump or May the figurehead doesn't own the company......

 

[harync]

This war between Qualcomm and Apple has caused a major downside for the iphone 8/8+/X. Because Apple wants to diversify it's suppliers, it has started using Intel modems. Unfortunately, Intel modems are not capable of Gigabit LTE performance like Qualcomm's modems. So Apple has hobbled the current generation of iphones because some have Intel modems and some have Qualcomm modems, and they want their "uniform user experience." They will not be capable of Gigabit LTE when it gets rolled out next year. One reason I'm thinking of waiting for the Iphone XL (or whatever is coming in 2018).

 

[alexgowers]

Qualcomm is the Harvey Weinstein of the tech industry. No one wanted to stand up to their anti competitive tactics and if Apple manage to win this is 5 loses for them in a row and everyone else will stop paying them in turn. Once there is a critical mass all the cards will fall. Qualcomm might even get into financial hot water and I'm sure their legal department is already being told to scale back losses.

 

[techwhiz]

According to Qualcomm, the lawsuits are based on three non-standard essential patents covering power management and the Force Touch technology that Apple uses in its touch screens.

Force Touch is a technology developed by Apple Inc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Touch

Apple's invention was introduced in 2014.

US2012105358 is a Qualcomm Patent granted in 2012 files in 2010.
"A computing device includes a touch screen display with a plurality of force sensors, each of which provides a signal in response to contact with the touch screen display. Using force signals from the plurality of force sensors, a characteristic of the contact is determined, such as the magnitude of the force, the centroid of force and the shear force."

Sounds like Apple Force Touch to me. This is most definitely prior art.
www.google.com/patents/US20120105358

[doublepost=1507936098][/doublepost]

If I understand right, it does seem absurd that Qualcomm gets a percentage of the device’s sale, since no matter what patents they hold, they have nothing to do with the cost of the components or the price people are willing to pay for the final product. No wonder Apple started making their own SOCs years ago. It’s probably what got this feud started.

The licensing model that Qualcomm has ensures that low end smartphone manufacturers don't pay high rates that price the bottom smart phone out of the market. Apple agreed to the terms and now since the devices are costing more Apple wants out of the agreements.
[doublepost=1507936550][/doublepost]

Apple should either buy them and get their IP, or make their own components IMO

Qualcomm is not for sale. They are actually buying NXP.
Apple can make all the components they want.
They still must pay Qualcomm. Just like using an Intel modem means Qualcomm gets paid.
Qualcomm invented the underlying technology for CDMA and LTE borrows more from LTE than from GSM.

 

[wizard]

If Apple is using Qualcomm technology without paying for it, that's very low and they should be punished for their illegalities.

You do realize that these are patents that have nothing to do with Qualcomms RF technology. They are patents that Qualcomm scraped up to try to pressure Apple via the courts in China.

No matter if it is a percentage based or any other model. Apple agreed on it. Now pay or don't use the technology.

Apple may have agreed on it until some of the legal issues have been clarified. I believe recent events indicates that Apple would succeed as what Qualcomm is doing is pretty much illegal.

You can't just say: "I agree to pay you under your terms" and then suddenly stop paying but still use the technology just because you deem it unfair. That's scamming.

If Qualcomm engaged in plan that they knew was illegal doesn't that make them open to Apples actions? As for this particular bit of the puzzle these are patents completely unrelated to Qualcomms modem related patents.

In what world does that make sense? Have we gone completely nuts?

It makes perfect sense if you realize what is being discussed. Qualcomm is trying to sue Apple for Force Touch here and there is very good reason to believe that Apple was there first with Force Touch.

 

[kdarling]

because the Intel modems are still a generation behind Qualcomm modems.

Other modems will likely always be behind, because that's Qualcomm's primary business: spending billions in R&D on comms each year. They're hugely responsible for the 3G we all enjoyed for years, and are a big part of 4G and beyond.

What people also don't realize is that, while Qualcomm contributes basic FRAND patents that are needed to implement a standard, they do not contribute all the optimization methods they themselves come up with that can work within the standard. That's why they're the gold standard for speed and power conservation, and why others want/need to license their non-SEPs as well.

Plus they've been around mobile since the early 90s and have patented related inventions ranging from touch controllers to augmented reality to image processors. They rank about fourth in the US when it comes to getting patents per year.

It makes perfect sense if you realize what is being discussed. Qualcomm is trying to sue Apple for Force Touch here and there is very good reason to believe that Apple was there first with Force Touch.

Note: I think articles and posters are using the wrong term.

Force Touch is an old industry term and is what Apple calls their corner sensor based clicks on the Mac and Watch. I believe they license it from a third party.

Seems more likely that Qualcomm is targeting what Apple calls 3D Touch, which is used on the iPhone.

 

[Mescagnus]

...with Samsung on the losing side.

That, and Samsung is in the middle of an unprecendented crisis. Top executives going to jail or resigning.

They may do relatively well with their flagship phones, despite their plummeting prices, but they’ve totally lost their market lead in top-tier TVs. LG and Sony take nearly 80% of the premium TV market as of now, Samsung is down to ~16%. Why? Because they take their customers for fools with things like QLED marketing scams.

Samsung is in deep trouble, and will get even deeper in the coming months.

Off topic, yes – but another indication that big players are failing. Qualcomm is not the only one in panic mode.

 

[Rocketman]

Qualcomm and Samsung are going to travel the same failed path. Years, lawyers, $ at the end and lost opportunities to all parties! Starting with Qualcomm, Samsung and the other whiners.

 

[Klyster]

That, and Samsung is in the middle of an unprecendented crisis. Top executives going to jail or resigning.

They may do relatively well with their flagship phones, despite their plummeting prices, but they’ve totally lost their market lead in top-tier TVs. LG and Sony take nearly 80% of the premium TV market as of now, Samsung is down to ~16%. Why? Because they take their customers for fools with things like QLED marketing scams.

Samsung is in deep trouble, and will get even deeper in the coming months.

Off topic, yes – but another indication that big players are failing. Qualcomm is not the only one in panic mode.

How are Samsung in big trouble now?

 

[tooltalk]

That, and Samsung is in the middle of an unprecendented crisis. Top executives going to jail or resigning.

They may do relatively well with their flagship phones, despite their plummeting prices, but they’ve totally lost their market lead in top-tier TVs. LG and Sony take nearly 80% of the premium TV market as of now, Samsung is down to ~16%. Why? Because they take their customers for fools with things like QLED marketing scams.

Samsung is in deep trouble, and will get even deeper in the coming months.

Off topic, yes – but another indication that big players are failing. Qualcomm is not the only one in panic mode.

Sure, the South Korean politics is a mess and as a result the company as a political institution is in crisis, but it's difficult to see your nonsense when they are about to announce record breaking profit for 3Q 2017 -- or 250+% increase in profit YoY. Most of their revenue and profit comes not from consumer/premium TV business, but their successful mobile and semiconductor business. Even within their display business, their increased sales is largely driven by their mobile OLED sales to companies like Apple. The company is likely to stay "highly" profitable and growing due to DRAM and NAND shortage worldwide for at least another 2 or 3 quarters.

 

[Leguna24]

They don't have a point

 

[MaxinMusicCity]

When will Qualcomm just go bust?
Their ego know no bound...

When the keep losing all their court cases.

 

[Tech198]

"...its technology is "at the heart of every iPhone."

What would we ever do without touch.......??

Qualcomm can only do this because they've got Apple by the uh.. ropes as well

 

[CPx]

The smell of desperation coming from Qualcomm is thick.

 

[makr]

Oh well. Who cares, really. Timmy needs a new yacht!

How many times have you heard Timmy got a new yatch?

 

[StrainedDig4]

This is like making a ball bearing, patenting it, then charging a percentage of the cost of the items it is used in, after being paid for the ball bearing at purchase.

Good luck getting China to comply with any legal action against intellectual property rights!

Right or wrong, Qualcomm is delusional in this effort...

 

[Applebot1]

Wow at this rate Qualcomm will go into liquidation. They are so desperate.

 

[shanos]

They should learn how to innovate with their SoCs. Because Apple is years ahead of Qualcomm in this area.

This is something that I am not really sure is correct, there is no real way of comparing the two processors as they are both running different operating systems.

Whilst you can benchmark both phones you will never actually get a true idea of the chips relative strengths and weakness' only how well they can both run a given application on a different operating system.

Its a bit like trying to compare the speed of a macbook running on an intel CPU with a windows laptop running on the same CPU, depending on how well optimised for the given chipset the OS is one will come out better in the benchmarks.

It has always been the case with IOS that Apple have controlled the hardware and the OS, this has allowed them to streamline the API's and higher level work that goes on under the shell to work perfectly with the hardware they have made.

Whilst I don't doubt that an iphone running an A11 processor will be quicker than a phone running a QC 835 I would wonder what percentage of the difference is down to the chip and what percentage is down to the OS and the integration of both.

 

[deanthedev]

This is something that I am not really sure is correct, there is no real way of comparing the two processors as they are both running different operating systems.

Whilst you can benchmark both phones you will never actually get a true idea of the chips relative strengths and weakness' only how well they can both run a given application on a different operating system.

Its a bit like trying to compare the speed of a macbook running on an intel CPU with a windows laptop running on the same CPU, depending on how well optimised for the given chipset the OS is one will come out better in the benchmarks.

It has always been the case with IOS that Apple have controlled the hardware and the OS, this has allowed them to streamline the API's and higher level work that goes on under the shell to work perfectly with the hardware they have made.

Whilst I don't doubt that an iphone running an A11 processor will be quicker than a phone running a QC 835 I would wonder what percentage of the difference is down to the chip and what percentage is down to the OS and the integration of both.

You can absolutely compare them because they run the same ISA. Benchmarks like Geekbench aren’t calling APIs in the OS to see how fast they complete. They are performing mathematical calculations (numerous different types) to see how well the processor can crunch numbers.

The tight integration of software and hardware just amplifies the difference in real-world usage giving Apple even more of an advantage.

Apple is absolutely years ahead and it started a long time ago. Apple stuck with 2 cores and devoted their R&D into making their cores faster. Samsung and Qualcomm took the easy way out by adding more cores and increasing clock speeds. Today a single Apple core in the A11 is literally twice as fast as anything Samsung or Qualcomm have. Which is why software performs better on an iPhone, as a single high performance core is superior to multiple slower cores.

 

[PlainBelliedSneetch]

When I visit San Diego (home of Qualcomm), there are billboards and radio ads going on and on about how important Qualcomm is to cellular communications and that we should be supporting them in all they do....

When I first saw these billboards I thought it was very odd. Later, I saw a news article about one of the lawsuits which happens to have been filed in San Diego. I’m guessing Qualcomm is prepping the jury pool.