If that is the definition then perhaps people shouldn't put Apple on such a pedestal. They are trying to rip you off just as much as the rest.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Quit your whining - it's embarrassing - seriously.
- Thread starter j5045096
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
If that is the definition then perhaps people shouldn't put Apple on such a pedestal. They are trying to rip you off just as much as the rest.
kastenbrust
macrumors 68030
Pretty much, thats capitalism. A North-Korean Apple might be more customer focused, but then again it would probably still be running Apple DOS.
longball11
macrumors 6502a
Well i made a thread about whiners and they pefectly demonstrated it. Not only that, but they closed MY thread. I didn't do anything to deserve that. Someone who got it closed was taking a hit from arguing.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/655654/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/655654/
Tallest Skil
macrumors P6
This, uh...
This is a help forum. People come here with problems. Therefore, you're, uh...
you know...
going to see people with problems here...
That's why it was closed. Not because the content was being censored, but because the content was common sense.
fartheststar
macrumors 6502a
RebootD
macrumors 6502a
You DO realize you're either a brilliant troll trying to get a heated thread started or a complete ignoramus because you basically posted a huge "FU" to everyone who doesn't think like you? You just created another thread for people to come whine about the stuff you told them you hate to hear them whine about! (Oh, and no one is going to think "Gee Golly he is right, I should just be happy and go play with my dog now")
I have a great t-shirt for you.. its all black and on the back in big bold all caps it says "I F****NG HATE T-SHIRTS WITH ALL CAPS MESSAGES ON THEM!!!"
You define hypocrite. Congrats!
kastenbrust
macrumors 68030
Oh WOW
A thread for people to whine about the whiners?
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and you started a thread to complain about other peoples opinions.
You should focus your energy on something more productive and ignore other whining threads. Maybe contribute something useful, help someone who is having a problem.
I've wasted enough of my own time responding here instead of helping someone else with a Mac problem. I guess I'm a hypocrite for even posting in this thread.
Peace
A thread for people to whine about the whiners?
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and you started a thread to complain about other peoples opinions.
You should focus your energy on something more productive and ignore other whining threads. Maybe contribute something useful, help someone who is having a problem.
I've wasted enough of my own time responding here instead of helping someone else with a Mac problem. I guess I'm a hypocrite for even posting in this thread.
Peace
RebootD
macrumors 6502a
sushi
Moderator emeritus
RebootD
macrumors 6502a
While others continue to complain about people complaining about stuff they don't like to hear complaining about? Why start a useless post? Why egg on the people you can't stand? Why do so then hate them for defending an opposing viewpoint? Why am I still here?
When will the lunacy end?!
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
That's my attitude as well.
When I want to buy a TV, I'll take a look at what I like. If I find a Philips to be too expensive for what I'm getting, I'll turn to Samsung. To expensive, or not good enough a TV? I'll turn to LG, Sony, and whatever else is out there.
Let your money do the talking. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it and then tell people it's too expensive, and that Apple has robbed you or something. If you were willing to pay it, then you thought the overall package of hardware, OS, and bundled software was worth the asking price.
The Aussie dollar has tanked. I know because I didn't like paying more either. When the Aussie dollar rose in value, buying a Mac got cheaper. You can't blame Apple for adjusting the prices, since from Apple's perspective, you're paying them the same amount you did before. 😉
RebootD
macrumors 6502a
Sorry but that analogy doesn't really work.
I can still watch ABC, NBC and all the same shows on my Samsung, LG or Sony TV that I chose to purchase with my dollar. You can only (legally and reliably) buy an Apple computer to use OSX, it isn't even close the same situation.
Abstract
macrumors Penryn
But you choose products based on whether it's worth it to you or not, and if people are still willing to buy Apple products, then apparently OS X, the aesthetic design, and brand name add significant value to the product. People are willing to pay the same or more for hardware with OS X loaded onto it. Sometimes a Mac will be the same price (e.g.: configure a mid-range Dell to match a MacBook in specs), and sometimes it'll be far more expensive (pick an higher end Dell desktop to price against any Mac Pro).
Apparently, aesthetics and brand add value beyond numbers on a sheet of paper. Gasp! 😱
Besides, since when did products get priced based on material costs and quality only, and since when did all hardware of similar spec have to cost the same?? People pay more for Lenovo and Sony than they do for a Dell. What, no uproar? 😕
Most people seem to understand these business concepts, but but I guess when it comes to Apple, Macs, and their own computers, people seem to conveniently ignore these things and treat Apple as some out-of-this-world entity in the computer industry that isn't a part of the free market. 😉
Apparently, aesthetics and brand add value beyond numbers on a sheet of paper. Gasp! 😱
Besides, since when did products get priced based on material costs and quality only, and since when did all hardware of similar spec have to cost the same?? People pay more for Lenovo and Sony than they do for a Dell. What, no uproar? 😕
Most people seem to understand these business concepts, but but I guess when it comes to Apple, Macs, and their own computers, people seem to conveniently ignore these things and treat Apple as some out-of-this-world entity in the computer industry that isn't a part of the free market. 😉
63dot
macrumors 603
Well said!
While it wasn't the best day for Apple Inc, it was nowhere near their worst. They did pretty good with that many releases in one day. The changes inside are what made the difference, and there's really no need for a drastic industrial design remake every single time. Apple has a pretty solid lineup and they did what they needed to, and then some.
And for the high end workhorse like the Mac Pro, they pretty much can keep that case very similar for many years. And the Mac mini is so small that there's no real need in making it thinner as it is already a space saver as it is. I use it on a very small desk in a very small room and I am happy that Apple put more into the same little case for the money.
While it wasn't the best day for Apple Inc, it was nowhere near their worst. They did pretty good with that many releases in one day. The changes inside are what made the difference, and there's really no need for a drastic industrial design remake every single time. Apple has a pretty solid lineup and they did what they needed to, and then some.
And for the high end workhorse like the Mac Pro, they pretty much can keep that case very similar for many years. And the Mac mini is so small that there's no real need in making it thinner as it is already a space saver as it is. I use it on a very small desk in a very small room and I am happy that Apple put more into the same little case for the money.
RebootD
macrumors 6502a
I understand it just fine but again it isn't a fair comparison and I'm sticking to it.
Let me try a different analogy so this makes sense: You can buy a Toyota or a Ford. Both run on gasoline, seat 4 comfortably and can drive 55 on any given expressway (when legally posted of course) and provide the same function to the end user but the consumer chooses on the 'package' they drive in. (comfort, reliability and cost are obvious considerations)
Now if Toyotas ran on soybeans and Fords ran on manure while Toyotas have to have special non-licensed soy-friendly engines while Fords have to have their own manure chuggin' transmissions that would make a windows vs mac analogy correct. Two things that provide the same function but rely on completely separate technologies, oh and Toyota refuses to let anyone else use their soy-based parts or include amenities to work with stuff we already own/need so they charge you extra for a turn signal, a 2nd brake pedal to gas pedal adapter and antenna for your stereo. (lookin' at you mini display port and lack of standard wifi on the pro)
Apple is on it's own island with no one else allowed to play ball with them so they make the dodge ball rules and you best like them or else. This is perfectly fine in a business sense and I applaud Apple for their success but just because Haliburton made money had over first while we paid more and more for their product, it doesn't mean all of us are happy about it. Plus some of us don't want to get a PC, buy pc versions of all our software etc so yes it is a business decision for me as well.
Then for the OP to come out, start a flame war and then get angry because people don't agree with him just proves that we mac owners can be fanatical hypocrites, worse than our PC brothers and sisters! Long live OSX but wow I'm becoming scared to associate myself as a 'mac user'.
dolphstar73
macrumors newbie
...perhaps it is a bit harsh to say Apple doesn't owe its fans anything (however true that may be) since it is fan loyalty that helped get them as far as they've come (I think the iPod and iPhone may have helped too). And fan furor can help them stay on the reasonably straight and mostly narrow (when you consider all the insane things PC makers do). Buy a PC and the first thing they want to do is have you pay over a hundred dollars to have all the advertising and pre-loaded junkware removed! You are literally having to repair your new computer before you even get to use it...I find that repulsive.
For those looking for buying advice please take all this ranting with a pinch of salt. I have a MacBook Pro, a Mac Book, and a high performance Dell PC (provided by the company I work for). Apple is not joking when they say Macs just work better. They really do, and it is worth paying a bit of a premium to get not only the hardware, but the Apple OS and the software packaged with a Mac. Nice programs, like iWork, are reasonably priced and are a delight to use compared to MS Office. Add a nice photo editing program like Adobe Photoshop elements (or the full version like I use) and you have quite a powerhouse that not only does a good job, but is stable and friendly to use. In nearly two years of Mac use, I have only had a couple of occasions where a program had to be forced to quit. I connect to networks all over the world using my Macbook with virtually no problems.
And, with macs there is no Windows registry to futz with which I am convinced is a death blow to every PC no matter how powerful the specs. I started having problems with the Dell almost immediately after loading some needed software. Our techie from EDS spent 3 hours getting it fixed. Next, the touch pad started going crazy. 3 attempted driver replacements and it is still not right - I just carry a mouse everywhere. It requires massive security and software updates which usually go smoothly but what is so wrong with Windows that all these updates are required? I just don't have time for all that and none of the updates improve performance, they just (hopefully) avoid disaster.
If you are not ready to buy now, then watch for periodic deals from Apple - trust me if these new ones don't sell as expected they will respond with some incentives. This is doubly true for those of us with macs who were thinking of upgrading. We already have nice computers so we can afford to sit back for a while and see which way the wind blows. I always peek at the refurb section which is where I got my MacBook. I ended up with a souped up model for the price of an entry level one. When it arrived it looked brand new to me - I could not tell it was a refurb at all and it runs perfectly.
You will hear a lot about matte screens. This is one area I do hope Mac will correct - the Matte is just better. There is no color or contrast loss, just the illusion that glossy is, well glossier. But my MacBook has a glossy screen and it has not been a major distraction (even when using photoshop). I would only worry about it if I was a graphics professional.
Now if you've read the complaints about pricing, this may be a bad time to try and coax a few more dollars out of you. Buy the Apple Care plan. I don't call them often, but when a corrupt software dvd hung up my MacBook pro, I spoke with someone who knew what they were doing, guided me through the fix, and had everything straightened out for me in short order. I went back to the Apple Store and they replaced, loaded, and tested the software for me. Where else do you get that? The truth is if you want the cheapest price you won't buy a mac anyway..they're not cheap but in my view they deliver more of what you will value as a user (including stability and support).
Overall I view some of the fuming and ranting as a good thing. How many companies have a large base of users who even care what their new releases are? Does anyone read a Toshiba rumors site (if there even is one)?
So, need a computer? Then race to the Apple store and get one...oh there is nothing better than that new-mac smell when you open the box. But unlike most PCs, the pleasure lasts long after the fresh aluminum aroma is gone. 😛
For those looking for buying advice please take all this ranting with a pinch of salt. I have a MacBook Pro, a Mac Book, and a high performance Dell PC (provided by the company I work for). Apple is not joking when they say Macs just work better. They really do, and it is worth paying a bit of a premium to get not only the hardware, but the Apple OS and the software packaged with a Mac. Nice programs, like iWork, are reasonably priced and are a delight to use compared to MS Office. Add a nice photo editing program like Adobe Photoshop elements (or the full version like I use) and you have quite a powerhouse that not only does a good job, but is stable and friendly to use. In nearly two years of Mac use, I have only had a couple of occasions where a program had to be forced to quit. I connect to networks all over the world using my Macbook with virtually no problems.
And, with macs there is no Windows registry to futz with which I am convinced is a death blow to every PC no matter how powerful the specs. I started having problems with the Dell almost immediately after loading some needed software. Our techie from EDS spent 3 hours getting it fixed. Next, the touch pad started going crazy. 3 attempted driver replacements and it is still not right - I just carry a mouse everywhere. It requires massive security and software updates which usually go smoothly but what is so wrong with Windows that all these updates are required? I just don't have time for all that and none of the updates improve performance, they just (hopefully) avoid disaster.
If you are not ready to buy now, then watch for periodic deals from Apple - trust me if these new ones don't sell as expected they will respond with some incentives. This is doubly true for those of us with macs who were thinking of upgrading. We already have nice computers so we can afford to sit back for a while and see which way the wind blows. I always peek at the refurb section which is where I got my MacBook. I ended up with a souped up model for the price of an entry level one. When it arrived it looked brand new to me - I could not tell it was a refurb at all and it runs perfectly.
You will hear a lot about matte screens. This is one area I do hope Mac will correct - the Matte is just better. There is no color or contrast loss, just the illusion that glossy is, well glossier. But my MacBook has a glossy screen and it has not been a major distraction (even when using photoshop). I would only worry about it if I was a graphics professional.
Now if you've read the complaints about pricing, this may be a bad time to try and coax a few more dollars out of you. Buy the Apple Care plan. I don't call them often, but when a corrupt software dvd hung up my MacBook pro, I spoke with someone who knew what they were doing, guided me through the fix, and had everything straightened out for me in short order. I went back to the Apple Store and they replaced, loaded, and tested the software for me. Where else do you get that? The truth is if you want the cheapest price you won't buy a mac anyway..they're not cheap but in my view they deliver more of what you will value as a user (including stability and support).
Overall I view some of the fuming and ranting as a good thing. How many companies have a large base of users who even care what their new releases are? Does anyone read a Toshiba rumors site (if there even is one)?
So, need a computer? Then race to the Apple store and get one...oh there is nothing better than that new-mac smell when you open the box. But unlike most PCs, the pleasure lasts long after the fresh aluminum aroma is gone. 😛
sushi
Moderator emeritus
It's the same thing for every update... it'll never get old for as long as technology goes on... 🙄
Winni
macrumors 68040
Since you've asked for it, you'll get it.
So first of all, Apple did not give you X+ technology for X bucks. What they did yesterday rather looked like X- technology for X+ bucks. The rest of the PC industry normally gives you X+ technology for X- bucks with every new product cycle. I think the difference is quite obvious. And don't tell me I'm wrong, I'm in this game for thirty years now.
Then, we're all PAYING CUSTOMERS. That means we have earned the right to complain about the company we are doing business with. Apple wants our money so they better sell us what WE want.
Most of us entered the vendor-lock in with Apple because although we knew the risk, it made sense for our business at the time. But once you've invested into Apple hard- and software, switching to something else becomes a very expensive proposition, so you usually don't do it but suck Apple's (expensive) policy up as long as it is bearable or acceptable.
In other words: Many of Apple's customers don't have much of a choice, and Apple is taking unethical advantage of that by selling overpriced products to professionals and by NOT offering sufficient choice.
So for people who made a commitment to the Apple platform the game is not as simple as you depict it. You whole points are only valid from a low-end consumer perspective, and that is not the perspective from where I and many others here are judging what is going on.
We're buying those Mac Pros not because we're in the "we love the premium design" corner. We're buying the Mac Pro because we need an expendable hardware platform that gives us enough computing power to run professional software, and some of this software only runs on OS X. So we spend some extra bucks. But there's a limit to this "extra", and once the vendor over-does it, people begin to jump ship.
Apple hasn't fully realized that they are in the PC industry now. The only real difference between their PCs and the others is the operating system running on them. They don't want us to run that OS on other hardware, but the problem for Apple is that we now can. And that in many countries, their EULA is not legally binding. So we can now take our software and move on. And in the next step, we might even consider leaving the software platform behind as well. After all, there's MUCH more choice in the Windows market. We only chose Apple because we enjoyed their products more, not because they are really better from a strictly factual point of view.
OS X is NOT more stable or reliable than Windows. Whoever says that hasn't used Windows in more than 15 years. It's also very debatable if OS X is more user friendly than Windows XP or Vista. I know MANY users who disagree. And I also know for fact that on -- MY -- Mac Pro, Vista Ultimate Edition 64 Bit runs much faster than OS X Leopard. So much for your "registry argument", which is pure nonsense from fantasy land.
But you're right here: Apple doesn't owe me anything. But neither do I owe anything to Apple, and neither do I have to say "thank you" just because they slightly upgraded their machine specifications and the price along with it. It's a business relationship, and I expect to get a proper value for my money. But lately, it is becoming more and more of a problem to justify an investment into Apple -- and that, eventually, will become a problem for Apple, too.
A successful company ships products that people WANT at a price that people can afford. And ideally, they even sell it at a better price than the competition.
When Microsoft began charging too much for their software, many companies migrated to Linux in their server rooms. It took Microsoft a good while to wake up and "correct" their pricing, but they did it. But Microsoft also listened to their customers and implemented features that are very competitive and add unique value to their platform.
IBM, on the other hand, never really woke up to the competition in the hardware market. The end of the story: IBM sold their PC business completely.
Now which way do you propose Apple should go?
So first of all, Apple did not give you X+ technology for X bucks. What they did yesterday rather looked like X- technology for X+ bucks. The rest of the PC industry normally gives you X+ technology for X- bucks with every new product cycle. I think the difference is quite obvious. And don't tell me I'm wrong, I'm in this game for thirty years now.
Then, we're all PAYING CUSTOMERS. That means we have earned the right to complain about the company we are doing business with. Apple wants our money so they better sell us what WE want.
Most of us entered the vendor-lock in with Apple because although we knew the risk, it made sense for our business at the time. But once you've invested into Apple hard- and software, switching to something else becomes a very expensive proposition, so you usually don't do it but suck Apple's (expensive) policy up as long as it is bearable or acceptable.
In other words: Many of Apple's customers don't have much of a choice, and Apple is taking unethical advantage of that by selling overpriced products to professionals and by NOT offering sufficient choice.
So for people who made a commitment to the Apple platform the game is not as simple as you depict it. You whole points are only valid from a low-end consumer perspective, and that is not the perspective from where I and many others here are judging what is going on.
We're buying those Mac Pros not because we're in the "we love the premium design" corner. We're buying the Mac Pro because we need an expendable hardware platform that gives us enough computing power to run professional software, and some of this software only runs on OS X. So we spend some extra bucks. But there's a limit to this "extra", and once the vendor over-does it, people begin to jump ship.
Apple hasn't fully realized that they are in the PC industry now. The only real difference between their PCs and the others is the operating system running on them. They don't want us to run that OS on other hardware, but the problem for Apple is that we now can. And that in many countries, their EULA is not legally binding. So we can now take our software and move on. And in the next step, we might even consider leaving the software platform behind as well. After all, there's MUCH more choice in the Windows market. We only chose Apple because we enjoyed their products more, not because they are really better from a strictly factual point of view.
OS X is NOT more stable or reliable than Windows. Whoever says that hasn't used Windows in more than 15 years. It's also very debatable if OS X is more user friendly than Windows XP or Vista. I know MANY users who disagree. And I also know for fact that on -- MY -- Mac Pro, Vista Ultimate Edition 64 Bit runs much faster than OS X Leopard. So much for your "registry argument", which is pure nonsense from fantasy land.
But you're right here: Apple doesn't owe me anything. But neither do I owe anything to Apple, and neither do I have to say "thank you" just because they slightly upgraded their machine specifications and the price along with it. It's a business relationship, and I expect to get a proper value for my money. But lately, it is becoming more and more of a problem to justify an investment into Apple -- and that, eventually, will become a problem for Apple, too.
A successful company ships products that people WANT at a price that people can afford. And ideally, they even sell it at a better price than the competition.
When Microsoft began charging too much for their software, many companies migrated to Linux in their server rooms. It took Microsoft a good while to wake up and "correct" their pricing, but they did it. But Microsoft also listened to their customers and implemented features that are very competitive and add unique value to their platform.
IBM, on the other hand, never really woke up to the competition in the hardware market. The end of the story: IBM sold their PC business completely.
Now which way do you propose Apple should go?
DoFoT9
macrumors P6
dear mr j5045096, 😛
im sorry, but people can speak how they want.. you may have your opinion and want everybody to shut it but quite frankly its not going to happen. the un-whiners are a minoroty compared to the whiners..so to speak..
was i dissapointed by the updates?? no, not particularly. was i infuriated by the price increases in australia? yes! is it not my right to be able to talk/show other people out there/debate about that? yes..
anyways, sorry to burst your bubble but people wont be shutting up.
/spiel
im sorry, but people can speak how they want.. you may have your opinion and want everybody to shut it but quite frankly its not going to happen. the un-whiners are a minoroty compared to the whiners..so to speak..
was i dissapointed by the updates?? no, not particularly. was i infuriated by the price increases in australia? yes! is it not my right to be able to talk/show other people out there/debate about that? yes..
anyways, sorry to burst your bubble but people wont be shutting up.
/spiel
Scarlet Fever
macrumors 68040
The prices for the previous gen desktops were set when the AUD was fetching around 0.80-0.90 USD. Since then, the value of our dollar has collapsed in a steaming pile on the floor. From memory, it hit as low as 0.55 USD, but is now around 0.63 USD.
I'm not stoked about having to pay more for a product, but if you're buying something from an international economy, price fluctuations are to be expected.
DoFoT9
macrumors P6
ok fair point.. but why are they cheaper in america and even cheaper again in NZ?? their dollar is weaker then ours.. we are closer to Taiwan so shouldnt the price of shipping be cheaper aswell? i guess i dont understand it
yes i guess thats all that it comes down too....