Radeongate III, 2011 MBP. A third graphics failure

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by Hank Meyer, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. Hank Meyer macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    #1
    So my machine has been in TWO times already, and last night it blew the gasket for the third time. I believe the last time I was in the guy told me that if it happened again he could almost guarantee I'd be given a new machine. Anybody been in three times?
     
  2. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #2
    The issue with the Radeon repair program is that it doesn't repair the issue. Apple just gives you a new logic board (with the flawed but functioning GPU). The repair program just kicks the can down the road.
     
  3. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #3
    Just a question: what kind of use are you doing of your MacBook? Gaming ? Intensive video editing ?
    Because I'm using mine (now sold but the buyer still using it) since day one launch, every single day, without any issue....
     
  4. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #4
    Your is just an hypothesis....
    Not all the GPU are flawed.
     
  5. Gav2k macrumors G3

    Gav2k

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    #5
    None of the gpu's are faulty they are all perfectly fine. The issue is the lead free solder cracking hence why reflowing the board fixes the issue providing it's done when symptoms first crop up.
     
  6. T5BRICK macrumors 604

    T5BRICK

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Location:
    Oregon
    #6
    I just don't believe this theory. Lead free solder is used on many other Apple products, and other products in general. While it is more brittle than leaded solder, it isn't as prone to cracking as you'd think. We'd be seeing failures of CPUs along with GPUs.

    I recall reading an article where the author was able to repair one of these failed GPUs by running it through a reflow cycle well below the melting temperature of the lead free solder. He speculated that the internal wire bonded joints on the GPU chips themselves were reflowing and that's why they started working again.
     
  7. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #7
    another theory .... none of them have been proved, so we don't really know what is the issue.
    But Apple said "a little number of units" showed the issue, not all of them (and my MacBook is still working, knocking on wood), so it could be related to some batches, or, another hypothesis , the issue is triggered by specific conditions.
     
  8. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #8
    I disagree, and if it was just a hypothesis apple wouldn't have a repair program. Plus the OP has gone through this twice so clearly to him its more then a theory.
     
  9. Macaman, Nov 7, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015

    Macaman macrumors member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    #9
    I also disagree. This is by Apple an acknowledged problem, hence they actually do have a repair program for it.
    I also dont understand what you mean by specific conditions. Even if Macs arent made for gaming they still should be more than capable of handle gaming without breaking, same goes for intensive video editing and other very demanding tasks. One should never be afraid of using the MBP to its full extent in fear of it breaking down. If thats the case something is indeed wrong...
     
  10. Hank Meyer thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    #10
    0.00% gaming
    0.00% video editing

    A good amount of YouBoob, Hulu, &Nflx
    A lot of PHOTO editing in Adobe Lightroom.
     
  11. Hank Meyer thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    #11
    Whelp I went in and after about 30 seconds of whining they decided to hand me a new machine. So I went from a $1,500 refurbished 2011 Mbp, with a 500gb spinning drive, with 4mb of ram, to a $2,500 2015 rMBP with a 512SSD, 16 gigs of ram, and a faster processor. :-D I'm happy but it's really sad that it took a lawsuit to push Apple to take care of its customers.
     
  12. Count Blah macrumors 68030

    Count Blah

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Location:
    US of A
    #12
    Sadly, it usually does.

    Go look in the iMac forums, for the 2007-2008 iMac issue. Many folks can't update past 10.6.2 Everything works just fine up to that point, but once they update past that, the machine gets the spinning beachball of death. Been this way for years. Apple closes all the tickets, people try playing with kext files, etc... It's 100% software, as < 10.6.3 works 100% and Windows works 100% But Apple has refused to fix/help, since 10.6.3 - and how long ago was that?
     
  13. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #13
    It`s a common failure mechanism on the MBP with dGPU, Apple`s history of the same has been tragic over the years. Highly likely it`s the combination of the dGPU and the limited thermal envelope of the MBP - high operating temperatures combined with rapid cycling result in thermal shock, which is a recognised failure mechanism in the electronics industry.

    Apple only replaces failed Logic Boards with refurbished boards, which are also likely to fail due the the same issues, exasperated by them being reworked. For Apple to release such an extensive warranty extension for the 15" MBP with dGPU, is telling alone, as such actions involve significant cost, equally Apple had little other option, versus being compelled by the courts.

    Only Apple knows the full extent of the issue, equally with a little searching it`s clear we are not talking about a small number of random failures, as Apple would like you to believe. Personally I believe the number will be significant, especially as Apple vehemently denied there was any issue with the 2011 MBP for a prolonged period of time, resulting in many owners facing significant cost, and a (still) poorly implemented fix. Apple should have been forced to replace all effected MPB`s with new equivalent systems, this then may have made them consider their actions in form over function.

    FWIW we still have a 2011 15" MBP that has no issue as yet, unfortunately many others have not been so lucky.

    Q-6
     
  14. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #14
    That is simply Apple`s philosophy, ever moving forward, however if you get caught up in the middle it`s not so good, nor will Apple be of much assistance.

    It`s always worth remembering Apple is about making $$$$ little else. Apple is extremely smart with it`s self image and marketing, equally they should not be put on a pedestal and idolised.

    Q-6
     
  15. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #15
    Your answer has nothing to do with my point.
    That ALL GPUs are defective is just an hypothesis.... I personally know of a few 2011 MBP still working, mine included....
    The problem was acknowledged for sure, but we don't know how many units are involved....

    You are right: only Apple knows.
    If are able to find even 1000 cases on the web, and you won't, the number is still low compared to the number of units sold. I would be interesting to find out the real percentage.
    Even a 15% would be a significant number worthing a repair program, but far from the "they are all defective" theory.
     
  16. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #16
    There are documented petitions of over 40K that I am aware of for the 2011 15" MBP alone. Why do you think Apple extended the warranty on the same and similar Macbook Pro`s, benevolence? Apple had absolutely no alternative in the face of massing court action.

    Enjoying, admiring and discussing a companies product is one thing, blindly defending one is entirely another matter. The genius of Apple is getting people to actually follow them in such a manner, hence the term "iSheep" Apple has a much better front end than most tech companies, however when you dig into it, they are just as prone to release flawed product, avoid recognising obvious technical issues that will negatively impact them, release buggy software - Anyone with an open mind & ten minutes to spare with a search engine can find the same and a great deal more.

    I like Mac`s & OS X, and have used the same in tandem for many years, equally I don't idolise Apple...

    Q-6
     
  17. Queen6, Nov 8, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015

    Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #17
    Lead free solder was an issue across the electronics industry, and was pretty much completely resolved by 2011. Previous to around 2008 and after 2009 GPU failure are related to the chip and or Apple`s design. One member did put together a list for the just the 15" Macbook Pro with links to know issues & recalls, sadly it was something like 60% - 70% of models produced had issue...

    Q-6
     
  18. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #18
    I understand, there are some topics people refuse to believe. I can see no good coming from furthering this discussion, you have your belief and anything remotely negative towards apple seems seems to be marginalized and dismissed.

    I'll not beat a dead horse, All I know is Apple has had major issues with discrete GPUs since 2008 (for a variety of reasons) and they've had to respond with repair programs a number of times, and/or repair programs to cover a number of years worth of models. They don't do that when its only a hypothesis, but when sufficient people threaten a class action suit and a lot of people did.

    Either way, I'm glad your MBP has not failed, I feel for those who had, and it took years for apple to acknowledge that the 2011 model has GPU issues, but as I mentioned I can see no good to continue this discussion and with that, I leave this thread and wish you a good day.
     
  19. iMacC2D, Nov 8, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  20. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #20
    I would also add that elevating the rear of the 15" on a aluminium passive cooler also helps, allowing the MBP radiate further heat. Very much agree with the increase in fan speed, as once the chassis is thermally saturated the cooling system is incapable of reducing the internal temperature effectively.

    As yet I have not replied the TIM, equally it`s becoming more a consideration, given the age of the system, as operating temperature is generally 50C+

    Q-6
     
  21. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #21
    Who are defending Apple ?
    One of the reasons I sold mine was this issue.
    Still 40K units over a few millions sold aren't ALL THE DEVICES ARE DEFECTIVE.

    In the same way you have your belief and anything remotely defensive towards Apple seems to be categorized as "fanboysm"...
    All I know is Apple has had some major issues with dGPUs in the past (before MacBook Pro 2011 there was the 9600M problem). This is different from say that all the units are defective.
    That's my point.

    Interesting. So you are blaming a thermal issue as the culprit?
    It was my hypothesis since the beginning (thus my question about gaming or video editing).
    On my MacBook Pro the cooling system worked well, and with my usage (mostly office, web browsing, photo editing and html.5 videos watching) temperatures were always below 42-45C.
     
  22. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #22
    It`s always been about the thermal management, or more to the point the lack of it, hence why it takes time for this failure mechanism to raise it`s head, as it`s fundamentally a form of fatigue. As long as Apple choose to run high power components as close to their thermal design limit for the sake of thin & quiet, we can expect the same issue to continue to reoccur.

    The 15" Retina has significantly improved cooling, equally Apple has continued to add ever faster, hotter running silicon to the same chassis. The only mitigation I see is that the current model has a more aggressive fan profile, spooling up the fans sooner rather than later. The primary reason I veered away from the 15" MBP is the heat & noise.

    Q-6
     
  23. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #23
    Newer CPUs are faster, but surely not hotter than previous.
     
  24. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #24
    Think more about the GPU; cooling is shared on the rMBP. The 15" MBP has always run hot, and continues to do so today. Running one with external displays immediately engages the dGPU by default, temperatures will soar, as will fan RPM`s. Thx to the vastly improved graphics more people are considering the 15" for gaming, once again dGPU is utilised with associated high operating temperature. The dGPU has for long been the "Achilles Heel" of the 15" MBP and will likely remain to be so. As soon as Apple can fully depreciate the dGPU from their line, I am absolutely certain they will. As in many respects they have never really got it right; too hot, too noisy, prone to failure etc.

    Generalising I don't say don't buy a 15", what I do say is know what you are getting yourself into, as to be frank there is an awful lot of them that have failed in the past, and the future is unknown. The 13" rMBP is the opposite offering extremely solid reliability for the most part.

    Q-6
     
  25. Max(IT) Suspended

    Max(IT)

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    #25
    That's totally different from my direct experience. Before the current 13" MBP (2015) my 15" MBP (late 2011) was hotter than this, but surely NOT HOT.
    During my normal usage temperature doesn't pass the 45°C level, staying around 38-40° C almost all the time.
    Only handbrake and iMovie could rise temperature above that level, but no more than 80-84° C, not an extremely hot value for an i7 quad core.
    My previous 15" MBP (2009) and its C2D surely was hotter than that....
    I wouldn't say the 15" MBP is hot or noisy. Far from that....
     

Share This Page