Rant: 30-year Mac fanatic finally buys Windows

[tubular]

So last weekend my 2012-era quad-core mini lost its WiFi and refused to connect. I took a look at the Apple desktop line, again, just in case my main home machine was going on the fritz. And there is still not a single desktop Mac I'd consider buying. The outside remote chance that if worse came to worst I'd get the 27" iMac, which had formerly evaded the Flying Fickle Soldering Iron of Fate -- well, it evades no more.

Apple, dammit! Make computers worth buying again!

Fortunately, the issue ended up being interference from an external USB3 SSD. Moved it to the other side of the desk, and all is well.

 

[scoobs69]

Honestly these complaints can be applied to 1996 as much as 2016. Macs have never been a good buy in my opinion. If you've owned a Mac you've always overpaid for the same hardware found in a windows machine. If you want to tell it like it is, Apple has only excelled at one thing over Windows - user experience. It was true in the 80's and still true today.

OP's rant is completely valid but talks about specs and price. I personally don't think Apple has ever won the spec or price battle.

To some degree yes. The difference today is, there's a wider gamut of price-to-performance than there was 5-10 years ago. In March of 2017, the 2013 Mac Pro price was still the same as the original release pricing - it was $4,000 for the 2013 6-core Mac Pro, $5,000 for the 8-core... and those prices were before any upgrades. If you wanted to pay a reasonable price (for a Mac Pro), you'll have to buy a refurb.

Back in 2013, at the least the Mac Pro was somewhat close performance-wise with a similarly spec'd PC. ...And the price difference wasn't entirely atrocious back then. Or maybe it was, and I just didn't know any better back then. HAHAHAHA


Right now, I have a 7820x build priced out in pcpartpicker.com for $2,250 with a Radeon RX 580, 32GB of RAM, 256GB NVMe boot drive, and a 500GB SSD - and a new keyboard. If I added an RX Vega 56 to my build, I'd be at $2,350. ...$2,450 if I add 4 ThermalTake RGB fans.

An 8-core 2013 Mac Pro with the nearly the same specs, (except for the additional internal 500GB SSD) and a new keyboard is currently priced at $4,530.00

For a 2017 4.2GHz Quadcore iMac with a 512GB Flash drive, and 32GB of memory via MacSales, and the same 8GB Radeon RX 580 as my build, I'd be spending $3,000. A LOT of pros have moved on to the 5K iMac as their workstation. So what kind of computer does Apple create for those Pros who are using an iMac?

The new iMac Pro will start with 8-cores, 32GB of RAM, 1TB flash storage, and the RX Vega 56 for $5,000. Yeah. It's a Xeon, blah-blah-blah. Not every pro workstation needs to be a Xeon based machine, as they've already moved away the Xeon Mac Pros.


That's absolutely insulting on all of Apple's accounts. Leave the upcoming Modular Mac Pro as the Xeon beast, and the iMac Xeonless....

Cook has proven Apple is no longer interested in the desktop computer market - and it's not a shock. They're officially a phone company. Look at the MacRumor's front page. It's all iPhone news. The iPhone constantly dominates MacRumor's news.

When it takes Apple more than 3 years to BEGIN the redesign process for a severely flawed Mac Pro design, which Phil Schiller suggested it was an innovative marvel with his on-stage quip, "Can't innovate anymore, my ass", that's a slap in the face to their pro users. It's also the idiocy of Apple's priorities. Make it look pretty first, then shoehorn everything into the case and make it as difficult as possible for user upgradeability (Processor for the Mac Pro). ...accept for the Ram. Apple seems to think it's a gift to the user to be allowed to upgrade the RAM in the 27" iMac and the 2013 Mac Pro.

...and that's why I'm moving on. I've been a devote Apple user for 35+ years, and a Mac user since the Quadra 700 & 950 days. So, yeah, nearly 25 years? And I'm finally migrating to a custom built Window's 10 computer for my next workstation. I'm seriously excited to get started on my PC build.

 

[karsten]

I agree. If apple insists on keeping a 40% profit margin on desktop computers they might as well throw in the towel now. Especially when the only custom thing in the pc is the motherboard and the rest of it is bog-standard intel components, I can't see how they can justify it.

 

[iMi]

For a 2017 4.2GHz Quadcore iMac with a 512GB Flash drive, and 32GB of memory via MacSales, and the same 8GB Radeon RX 580 as my build, I'd be spending $3,000.

See, I believe the latest iMac is finally a solid value. The $3,000 you quoted includes a display that will cost you at least $1,200 alone. Plus a nice mouse. The machine you are building doesn't have that.

Apple has seriously neglected the Mac line prior to the latest update. I have also moved on and build a powerful PC. After a few months, I just missed OS X and the integration between all my Apple devices, so I ended up buying the new iMac.

 

[BenTrovato]

I use a Mac for my personal computer. I love the aesthetic and the OS, it's well designed and more of a joy to work on than Windows. I overpaid for it 100%. For my business - all my workstations run Windows. They need to be powerful and they need to be upgradeable. The expense I would incur to have a whole bunch of non serviceable Macs would be insane.

 

[pika2000]

I agree. If apple insists on keeping a 40% profit margin on desktop computers they might as well throw in the towel now. Especially when the only custom thing in the pc is the motherboard and the rest of it is bog-standard intel components, I can't see how they can justify it.

By that logic, all fashion brands should close shops as well since their margins is much more than Apple.

Yet people still buy Nikes and the likes.

The beauty of this is that if Apple really doesn't give any more value over the likes of Acer or Lenovo, then yes, Apple will be out of business. Yet reality says otherwise.

 

[Chancha]

The issue is balance between the two ends I suppose. Macs used to be a golden standard of balancing ergonomics and computing performance into a single trouble free package. Now on the software and OS front, MS and others have been catching up in ease of use and interfacing, sometimes even better (touch related). And then on hardware side the previous budget brands also up-sell themselves with higher quality models at much more affordable price. On the consumer point of view the last couple years the Apple offerings were just dreadful in terms of value.

I think it has more to do with Apple's focus on mobile as a platform, so they somehow let the Mac side slip, intentionally or not. Had they had put into 1/10th the effort of polishing the iPhone into a Mac desktop, imagine how much better the Mac line up could be, just like the early to mid 2000's. Let's see if the Modular Mac Pro can sway the momentum back a bit, if it is not too little too late.

 

[scoobs69]

See, I believe the latest iMac is finally a solid value. The $3,000 you quoted includes a display that will cost you at least $1,200 alone. Plus a nice mouse. The machine you are building doesn't have that.

Apple has seriously neglected the Mac line prior to the latest update. I have also moved on and build a powerful PC. After a few months, I just missed OS X and the integration between all my Apple devices, so I ended up buying the new iMac.

That $3,000 is for a quad core 7700K machine.

Yes, the 5k display definitely adds value - if you need a display. If you don't need a display, I don't, so it's a needless added premium to the price. I'd rather use a fraction of that additional $1,200 for better upgrades on my machine - like I did with my PC build - going from a 4-core to an 8-core, adding more ram or storage.

And here's where Apple has lost it for me: they will never release a Mac Mini (or mini-mini tower ) with the 7700K processor, much less the upcoming i7 6-core Coffee Lake, with 16GB of user upgradeable ram to 32GB, a flash drive with a second user upgradable flash drive slot, and an 8GB RX 580 GPU for $1,800 - which I, and many others, would likely buy. Oh lord, I'd LOVE that machine - especially with the upcoming 6-core i7 coffee lake processor. But, it'll never EVER happen. Apple executive blokes just can't fathom there's a need/want for such a machine. They do, however, believe thinner is better, less ports is better, and if you want something somewhat modular, you'll need to buy an Xeon variant and pay through the nose - because they're Apple.
[doublepost=1502726617][/doublepost]

The issue is balance between the two ends I suppose. Macs used to be a golden standard of balancing ergonomics and computing performance into a single trouble free package. Now on the software and OS front, MS and others have been catching up in ease of use and interfacing, sometimes even better (touch related). And then on hardware side the previous budget brands also up-sell themselves with higher quality models at much more affordable price. On the consumer point of view the last couple years the Apple offerings were just dreadful in terms of value.

I think it has more to do with Apple's focus on mobile as a platform, so they somehow let the Mac side slip, intentionally or not. Had they had put into 1/10th the effort of polishing the iPhone into a Mac desktop, imagine how much better the Mac line up could be, just like the early to mid 2000's. Let's see if the Modular Mac Pro can sway the momentum back a bit, if it is not too little too late.

This is the part that fries me. Apple had zero problem offering the less expensive iPhone C variant - but they can't figure out a C variant that would be a hybrid of their Mac Mini and iMac line-up. It would be more expensive than their Mac Mini line, but less expensive than their 5k 7700K iMac.

An option they really need to make
Mac Mini (double height)
7700K processor (or i7 8700K in 2018)
16GB Ram (upgradable to 32GB - 64GB would be better)
Radeon RX 580 8GB GPU (BTO option to RX Vega 56 )
512GB Flash Storage (user upgradable)
Second Flash Storage slot (user upgradable)

2 TB3 ports
4 USB 3 ports
2 USB 3.1 ports
Ethernet Port
Audio-in/audio-out

Priced $1,800-$2,000

OMG! Take my money (pipe dream)

 

[pika2000]

The issue is balance between the two ends I suppose. Macs used to be a golden standard of balancing ergonomics and computing performance into a single trouble free package. Now on the software and OS front, MS and others have been catching up in ease of use and interfacing, sometimes even better (touch related). And then on hardware side the previous budget brands also up-sell themselves with higher quality models at much more affordable price. On the consumer point of view the last couple years the Apple offerings were just dreadful in terms of value.

I think it has more to do with Apple's focus on mobile as a platform, so they somehow let the Mac side slip, intentionally or not. Had they had put into 1/10th the effort of polishing the iPhone into a Mac desktop, imagine how much better the Mac line up could be, just like the early to mid 2000's. Let's see if the Modular Mac Pro can sway the momentum back a bit, if it is not too little too late.

Windows 10 is a good OS, but actual ease of use is still up for debate. Added to the way MS is trying to collect user info baked into the OS. And yes, I use Windows full time alongside my Mac, and every time I do, it's a dreaded experience.

As for Touch, Windows rely on touch because they just couldn't figure out how to make good trackpads. Watch Windows users. Most of them use the touch to scroll pages. Why? Because the multitouch trackpad experience on the typical Windows laptop is horrendous.

Actual good products from brands like Dell and HP are not that cheap. There are good values here and there, but then they have sucky drivers, etc that ruins he experience.

 

[Chancha]

Windows 10 is a good OS, but actual ease of use is still up for debate. Added to the way MS is trying to collect user info baked into the OS. And yes, I use Windows full time alongside my Mac, and every time I do, it's a dreaded experience.

As for Touch, Windows rely on touch because they just couldn't figure out how to make good trackpads. Watch Windows users. Most of them use the touch to scroll pages. Why? Because the multitouch trackpad experience on the typical Windows laptop is horrendous.

Actual good products from brands like Dell and HP are not that cheap. There are good values here and there, but then they have sucky drivers, etc that ruins he experience.

You are right, the "Wintel" solutions are still not coming on par with Apple's in terms of completeness. But the gap is now closer than ever before. And the above is only concentrating on laptops or AIOs where Apple is still good at.

But on the desktop side it is different, by being less and less modular when offering no substantial performance gain, and charge more while doing it, is just bad value. I recently bought the iMac 2017 27", pretty close to spec'in it out, like some said above it is solid value in recent Apple years, but if compared to what's out there I still feel somewhat ripped off. For one the 5K monitor while nice, it is not necessary, and it is not top class either. I would be better served if there is a choice of a Mac Mini / Mac Pro with the same computing guts as the iMac 2017, but being headless means I have the liberty to get an Eizo or 4K OLED TV as I see fit. The same goes with the internal components, namely storage expansion, and PCI related I/Os.

 

[iMi]

That $3,000 is for a quad core 7700K machine.

Yes, the 5k display definitely adds value - if you need a display. If you don't need a display, I don't, so it's a needless added premium to the price. I'd rather use a fraction of that additional $1,200 for better upgrades on my machine - like I did with my PC build - going from a 4-core to an 8-core, adding more ram or storage.

And here's where Apple has lost it for me: they will never release a Mac Mini (or mini-mini tower ) with the 7700K processor, much less the upcoming i7 6-core Coffee Lake, with 16GB of user upgradeable ram to 32GB, a flash drive with a second user upgradable flash drive slot, and an 8GB RX 580 GPU for $1,800 - which I, and many others, would likely buy. Oh lord, I'd LOVE that machine - especially with the upcoming 6-core i7 coffee lake processor. But, it'll never EVER happen. Apple executive blokes just can't fathom there's a need/want for such a machine. They do, however, believe thinner is better, less ports is better, and if you want something somewhat modular, you'll need to buy an Xeon variant and pay through the nose - because they're Apple.
[doublepost=1502726617][/doublepost]

This is the part that fries me. Apple had zero problem offering the less expensive iPhone C variant - but they can't figure out a C variant that would be a hybrid of their Mac Mini and iMac line-up. It would be more expensive than their Mac Mini line, but less expensive than their 5k 7700K iMac.

An option they really need to make
Mac Mini (double height)
7700K processor (or i7 8700K in 2018)
16GB Ram (upgradable to 32GB - 64GB would be better)
Radeon RX 580 8GB GPU (BTO option to RX Vega 56 )
512GB Flash Storage (user upgradable)
Second Flash Storage slot (user upgradable)

2 TB3 ports
4 USB 3 ports
2 USB 3.1 ports
Ethernet Port
Audio-in/audio-out

Priced $1,800-$2,000

OMG! Take my money (pipe dream)

I would love for Apple to release a tower style Mac computer (not necessarily a Pro) that would be fully upgradable AND a separate, matching high quality display. I would in fact prefer that to the iMac.

One can dream

 

[richpjr]

I would love for Apple to release a tower style Mac computer (not necessarily a Pro) that would be fully upgradable AND a separate, matching high quality display. I would in fact prefer that to the iMac.

One can dream

That sure seems like a dream...sadly.

 

[Queen6]

That sure seems like a dream...sadly.

Given Apple is charging extra for power extensions & dongles these days, chances of Apple offering anything remotely user upgradeable is zero IMHO. Tim & Co is all about extracting the maximum from the customer, and offering as little as possible...

Q-6

 

[Chancha]

Given Apple is charging extra for power extensions & dongles these days, chances of Apple offering anything remotely user upgradeable is zero IMHO. Tim & Co is all about extracting the maximum from the customer, and offering as little as possible...

Q-6

The thing is that they admitted to be on the wrong track with regards to the trashcan Mac Pro, which essentially means the future modular Mac Pro will need to remedy some of those unnecessary constraints. If Apple was like we think, all about maximizing profit then they should have just silently walked out of the desktop market, which they are saying they won't, yet.

 

[AFEPPL]

I recently got a new windows surface device and it's by far the best piece of technology I've ever owned.
I'm starting to even prefer Windows OS over MacOS too, it's just more modern, faster and slicker. Apple for me has certainly gone backwards with no real gui changes and too much focus on pointless gimmicks, bloat like the touch bar or handoff (that never really works well).

 

[Queen6]

The thing is that they admitted to be on the wrong track with regards to the trashcan Mac Pro, which essentially means the future modular Mac Pro will need to remedy some of those unnecessary constraints. If Apple was like we think, all about maximizing profit then they should have just silently walked out of the desktop market, which they are saying they won't, yet.

My own opinion was Apple was testing the water and watching the reaction to them disregarding the Mac. Had the tech press and the professional audience both been so vocal Apple would have left the Mac to wither further. Sadly Apple is now a phone company that is compelled to maintain it's computer heritage and it shows...

Q-6

 

[Chancha]

My own opinion was Apple was testing the water and watching the reaction to them disregarding the Mac. Had the tech press and the professional audience both been so vocal Apple would have left the Mac to wither further. Sadly Apple is now a phone company that is compelled to maintain it's computer heritage and it shows...

Q-6

If that's the case then it must largely be a marketing driven decision than anything an informed vision. The iPad even with iOS 11 still isn't close to replace a macOS driven laptop. And iOS apps need to be developed on a Mac. And then AR/VR content needs to be done on a modern PC tower with a generously powerful graphics card or something equivalent. Then off to the recent interest in AI/machine learning which isn't even close to the Mac ecosystem. The Apple management has got to be the biggest idiots to think they could have lived out being just a mobile company, with the occasional earphone and smart speakers thrown into the mix. They even walked out of display business thinking every Mac buyer wants an AIO, and dissembled the AirPort team without having a MESH networking product in place.

 

[Queen6]

If that's the case then it must largely be a marketing driven decision than anything an informed vision. The iPad even with iOS 11 still isn't close to replace a macOS driven laptop. And iOS apps need to be developed on a Mac. And then AR/VR content needs to be done on a modern PC tower with a generously powerful graphics card or something equivalent. Then off to the recent interest in AI/machine learning which isn't even close to the Mac ecosystem. The Apple management has got to be the biggest idiots to think they could have lived out being just a mobile company, with the occasional earphone and smart speakers thrown into the mix. They even walked out of display business thinking every Mac buyer wants an AIO, and dissembled the AirPort team without having a MESH networking product in place.

Likely as it's more profitable to develop & sell IOS devices on mass, versus the Mac. I believe that Apple very much underestimated the "clout" the Mac has within the technical, creative & press communities. It's highly unlikely that Apple was short on reserves to develop the Mac, Apple's execs simply made a decision..

Apple may be waking up, equally they will never deliver what it's professional users want both in the desktop & portable realms, as Apple is now simply so obsessed with "harvesting" as much of it's customers $$$$ as is possible, so we can discount anything that can be remotely considered user upgradable. With now just 15% of Mac users now being classified as Professional Users, Apple is clearly not remotely interested barring the odd "dog & pony" show (Keynote) 2016 MBP launch was simply embarrassing, yet Apple themselves has orchestrated this very situation.

What I expect is hardware that is both highly proprietary and excessively priced as Apple knows all to well if you need and want to remain in the OS X/macOS environment you have no other choice. Personally I have tired of Apple's position with the Mac, nor do I trust Apple to once again not to loose interest in the computing line up at it's whim, leaving us once agin "high and dry". As a direct result this rMB is my last Mac used professorially soon to be retired, all the other business related hardware has been replaced, nor was it a drama.

Apple wants that business back, it's not only going to need to perform, it's going need to impress, the additional cost of Apple hardware has to be meaningful, not just Apple's execs flapping their jaws with the same tired & old cliche's...

Q-6

 

[Chancha]

Likely as it's more profitable to develop & sell IOS devices on mass, versus the Mac. I believe that Apple very much underestimated the "clout" the Mac has within the technical, creative & press communities. It's highly unlikely that Apple was short on reserves to develop the Mac, Apple's execs simply made a decision..

Apple may be waking up, equally they will never deliver what it's professional users want both in the desktop & portable realms, as Apple is now simply so obsessed with "harvesting" as much of it's customers $$$$ as is possible, so we can discount anything that can be remotely considered user upgradable. With now just 15% of Mac users now being classified as Professional Users, Apple is clearly not remotely interested barring the odd "dog & pony" show (Keynote) 2016 MBP launch was simply embarrassing, yet Apple themselves has orchestrated this very situation.

What I expect is hardware that is both highly proprietary and excessively priced as Apple knows all to well if you need and want to remain in the OS X/macOS environment you have no other choice. Personally I have tired of Apple's position with the Mac, nor do I trust Apple to once again not to loose interest in the computing line up at it's whim, leaving us once agin "high and dry". As a direct result this rMB is my last Mac used professorially soon to be retired, all the other business related hardware has been replaced, nor was it a drama.

Apple wants that business back, it's not only going to need to perform, it's going need to impress, the additional cost of Apple hardware has to be meaningful, not just Apple's execs flapping their jaws with the same tired & old cliche's...

Q-6

I am fearing the same, as much as I hate to think in Apple's shoes, I am balls deep into the ecosystem just like most others and in effect I and my professional career are tightly entangled with whatever Apple feels like making down the road. Switching is always easier said than done, I have to use Windows machine at professional settings, while the modern solutions are more than impressive, they still lack a certain cohesion and stability that Macs somehow still manage to have.

The modular Mac Pro, if it is anything close to a generic PC tower, even for a modernized Cheese Grater, should not take more than one year to design and ship. So yes, I also fear that it will be an insanely proprietary piece of eye candy, with some space-age modularity not in component sense but in external sense. It will be a poster boy for all the tech blogs and youtube unboxers for years without offering meaningful advantage over plain old ATX cases. Ironically hackintoshes are running more than fine on these ghetto configs, particularly when multiple internal drive bays are occupied by SSDs, and have room to fit a full sized GPU card. All these are so basic, it is sometimes mind boggling to see if Apple just intentionally trolls the pro users with design like the trashcan, or the dual core Mini.

 

[Queen6]

I am fearing the same, as much as I hate to think in Apple's shoes, I am balls deep into the ecosystem just like most others and in effect I and my professional career are tightly entangled with whatever Apple feels like making down the road. Switching is always easier said than done, I have to use Windows machine at professional settings, while the modern solutions are more than impressive, they still lack a certain cohesion and stability that Macs somehow still manage to have.

The modular Mac Pro, if it is anything close to a generic PC tower, even for a modernized Cheese Grater, should not take more than one year to design and ship. So yes, I also fear that it will be an insanely proprietary piece of eye candy, with some space-age modularity not in component sense but in external sense. It will be a poster boy for all the tech blogs and youtube unboxers for years without offering meaningful advantage over plain old ATX cases. Ironically hackintoshes are running more than fine on these ghetto configs, particularly when multiple internal drive bays are occupied by SSDs, and have room to fit a full sized GPU card. All these are so basic, it is sometimes mind boggling to see if Apple just intentionally trolls the pro users with design like the trashcan, or the dual core Mini.

Most definitely agree, Last few years we moved much of our hardware away for Apple as we felt that Apple was intensifying it's monopoly, nor was the desktop OS improving from a productivity point of view or hardware evolving. These days I solely focus on my own consulting work, previously always choosing the MBP as my weapons of choice, these days, just no with the latest MBP being little more than a flashy consumer toy.

Bottom line is i'm not willing to suffer Apple's arrogance at the expense of features and usability, fully expecting a premium product for the premium price point. Unfortunately for Apple other companies have caught up, and in some respects overtaken Apple. When it comes down to systems that generate revenue, it's a very simple decision with Apple being out the game until they prove otherwise...

Q-6

 

[ssgbryan]

I am fearing the same, as much as I hate to think in Apple's shoes, I am balls deep into the ecosystem just like most others and in effect I and my professional career are tightly entangled with whatever Apple feels like making down the road. Switching is always easier said than done, I have to use Windows machine at professional settings, while the modern solutions are more than impressive, they still lack a certain cohesion and stability that Macs somehow still manage to have.

The modular Mac Pro, if it is anything close to a generic PC tower, even for a modernized Cheese Grater, should not take more than one year to design and ship. So yes, I also fear that it will be an insanely proprietary piece of eye candy, with some space-age modularity not in component sense but in external sense. It will be a poster boy for all the tech blogs and youtube unboxers for years without offering meaningful advantage over plain old ATX cases. Ironically hackintoshes are running more than fine on these ghetto configs, particularly when multiple internal drive bays are occupied by SSDs, and have room to fit a full sized GPU card. All these are so basic, it is sometimes mind boggling to see if Apple just intentionally trolls the pro users with design like the trashcan, or the dual core Mini.

I recommend you start to develop a transition plan - don't wait until you are up against the wall.

 

[scoobs69]

Personally I have tired of Apple's position with the Mac, nor do I trust Apple to once again not to loose interest in the computing line up at it's whim, leaving us once agin "high and dry". As a direct result this rMB is my last Mac used professorially soon to be retired, all the other business related hardware has been replaced, nor was it a drama.

Apple wants that business back, it's not only going to need to perform, it's going need to impress, the additional cost of Apple hardware has to be meaningful, not just Apple's execs flapping their jaws with the same tired & old cliche's...

Q-6

This! All of this is exactly how I feel. I'll hold on to my 2009 Mac Pro and 13" MacBook Air until they croaks. I might even buy a used/refurbed Mac Mini once the Mac Pro does croak, to maintain my iTunes music and movie libraries. But as far as workstations go, I'm going PC unless Apple wows with their deliverables, rather than gloats (2013 Mac Pro design, 2016 rMBP and the touch bar).

One other thing Apple may not think about - if their mac users start vacating the Mac platform, then there is little reason to stay married to the iPhone. So in a round about way, their iPhone sales may (likely?) suffer.
[doublepost=1502910319][/doublepost]

I recommend you start to develop a transition plan - don't wait until you are up against the wall.

Ha! I'm doing this now. I'd rather leave Apple now, while I can make the transition easily, rather than wait until Apple pulls the desktop workstation rug out from under their pro users. ...and it's only a matter of when, not if.

 

[Michael Scrip]

As for Touch, Windows rely on touch because they just couldn't figure out how to make good trackpads. Watch Windows users. Most of them use the touch to scroll pages. Why? Because the multitouch trackpad experience on the typical Windows laptop is horrendous.

I've seen worse...

I know many people who use two hands to operate their Windows trackpad.

One hand moving the cursor... the other hand simply clicking the buttons!

I spend 5 hours working with a friend on a printing project... it baffled me to see her with both hands occupied.

I always have an external mouse for long-term serious work. I don't even bother with the trackpad for most work!

 

[Tozovac]

The issue is balance between the two ends I suppose. Macs used to be a golden standard of balancing ergonomics and computing performance into a single trouble free package. Now on the software and OS front, MS and others have been catching up in ease of use and interfacing, sometimes even better (touch related).

Don't forget the very important additional consideration - while yes MS and others have been catching up, OSX/iOS have been slipping IMHO down from where they were 3-4 years ago with all this focus on faddish white/flat fashion and super minimalism, straying far from the "it just works" that macs used to be known for. As a result, the value proposition for a Mac falls even more. Macs still seem better than the options for many of us, but what's snuck in ever so quietly is that instead of being the clear best option as used to be the case before Jony Ive took over software/UI, Macs are just better options than the competition still, for now.

 

[Lankyman]

Windows 10 is a good OS, but actual ease of use is still up for debate. Added to the way MS is trying to collect user info baked into the OS. And yes, I use Windows full time alongside my Mac, and every time I do, it's a dreaded experience.

As for Touch, Windows rely on touch because they just couldn't figure out how to make good trackpads. Watch Windows users. Most of them use the touch to scroll pages. Why? Because the multitouch trackpad experience on the typical Windows laptop is horrendous.

Actual good products from brands like Dell and HP are not that cheap. There are good values here and there, but then they have sucky drivers, etc that ruins he experience.

Posts like the above are just so out of touch with the reality of a modern W10 experience that I wonder about some users ability to actually use a computer. I still have my iMac but now use my self-build Windows machine full time. I can honestly say it's every bit as good both as computer hardware and an OS as my iMac ever was.

One of the other posters was right on the money when he wrote that Apple is now a phone company. I don't really know why MacRumors hasn't rebranded itself as iPhoneRumors as that now appears to be it's core content.