Rant about poor Apple hardware design

[Firefly2002]

?? - by rewriting the USB specification perhaps? Or maybe they could buy some magic fairy dust and sprinkle it on every keyboard.

No, by running a separate wire for power in a slightly-enlarged USB cable (meaning, two wires under the plastic casing). They would both come out the end the same end, obviously, and the USB port would remain the same, for transmitting the data from the keyboard, while there would be a (yes, proprietary, not that it matters) plug for the hardware power-on button very closeby.

This would only affect the keyboard itself (and the fact that there would be a new little aperture in the back next to it); it wouldn't interfere with other USB devices, as the proximity of the USB and "power port" would be for practical reasons, not technical ones.

But your fairy dust idea sounds even more promising. Maybe it would work even better with angel dust.

If Apple did that, how many people would roast them for coming up with "yet another non-standard, proprietary, closed Apple connection standard"? It would have been just another replay of ADC.

I was going to use ADC as an example, but thought better of it. Obviously that didn't matter since I didn't explain myself clearly enough. It would be like if instead of having used ADC, apple had bundled the DVI and power cable together, in a still reasonably-sized wire. That would have been difficult though, obviously, given the size of and placement of the AGP card.

I think ADC was actually a really good idea, just not marketable, given its expense and the fact that DVI was entrenched.

I don't know a whole lot about the electrical part of computers, so I could be totally wrong here. But if I am, and it's totally impossible, it's my understanding that fluidedge has some magical remedy.

 

[26139]

wow....

You should all be banned from computers. Not because you couldn't figure it out but because you're claiming it's a design flaw and not idiocy that caused the problem.

 

[GregPacker]

It seems odd to me that so many people are saying "its not bad design, a new user should just use google to find out how to open a macpro drive". With good design you should not need to use google to find out how to do any basic function. If I bought a dvd player for my lounge and needed to google how to open its drive then I would think it was unintuitive bad design.
I used a MDD G4 powermac for years and its eject button worked without needing to be held down, so I was surprised to find it necessary to hold it down on my macpro (although it only took me 10 seconds to realize what was different). I can understand why a new user might just press it briefly several times and give up thinking the button was faulty, there is certainly no indication on the keyboard that the eject button needs to be used differently to all of the other buttons. Apple could simply put a sticker on the keyboard or its plastic bag when they ship it saying "hold the eject button down (<picture of eject button icon>) to open the disk drive in the tower", which new owners would see during unboxing and they wouldn't need to use google or search through the big manual. Obviously this still would not help new users who are using a machine that someone else has already set up.
I also remember the first time I installed a drive in the second bay, and was not immediately sure how to open it. Option + eject, not exactly what a new user would guess immediately.
Which brings me onto another thing that puzzled me when I first used a mac. The manual often said "hold down the option button" or "hold down the command button" but I searched through the entire manual and could not find anywhere that said what these buttons looked like. It was as though the manual printers at the time did not have those symbols in their font sets, so they just referred to them as "the option button" and "the command button". I think essential Apple specific information like that should be on a very brief leaflet in the box, so new users aren't left in the dark. This was years ago when I lived in a house without an internet connection, so I had nowhere to look it up and had to work it out through trial and error, not very user friendly at all.
Another example of bad design is the european version of the new thin aluminum keyboard. Whereas the old pro keyboard (and any pc keyboard) has an enter key which is wider than the other keys (so you can hit it easily with your little finger while typing), the European aluminium keyboard has an enter key that for most of its height is actually thinner than any other key on the keyboard. Absolutely crazy, you need this button all the time and it is now very easy to hit the slash button instead by mistake. I think the designers were lazy, they thought of the European version as an afterthought and did not want to modify the basic shape of the keyboard so they squeezed the enter key into the existing "space" from the American keyboard plan. Look at the top picture, that's how a European enter key should look, not like the anorexic thing in the bottom right picture.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

It took me a minute to find the stupid power button on the 24" iMacs in the library.

What were you doing messing with the power button in a library?

 

[StealthRider]

I mean, I realize that USB isn't capable of an always-on 0.5v trickle for a hardware power-on, but I'm sure Apple could find a way to make it work.

They did on the old iMacs and G3/G4 PowerMacs...

 

[nikiski]

This is a little annoying. When before they changed the way the eject button works people were like "OMG I accidently hit the button and the disc flies out! Apple should do something about it". And then after they changed it people are like "OMG I need to hold down the button for 1 second for discs to be ejected! Apple sux".

Geez. People.

 

[Firefly2002]

What were you doing messing with the power button in a library?

Oh you know me. I'm just meddlesome that way. I have a term paper due the next day and I just can't help turning on the iMac that's currently off in order to write it.

What else would I be doing?

Actually, the first time I turned it off because the fan was going full blast nonstop. Still didn't work so I had to Google (lol) what caused it.. turns out just had to power down, unplug for 15s, and plug back in and restart.

But that was a different computer and I wasn't thinking about that. Yep, it took me that long to find it a second time. I was tired

They did on the old iMacs and G3/G4 PowerMacs.

Tired now, too, so I'm just gonna ask...... link?

 

[Anuba]

Another example of bad design is the european version of the new thin aluminum keyboard. Whereas the old pro keyboard (and any pc keyboard) has an enter key which is wider than the other keys (so you can hit it easily with your little finger while typing), the European aluminium keyboard has an enter key that for most of its height is actually thinner than any other key on the keyboard. Absolutely crazy, you need this button all the time and it is now very easy to hit the slash button instead by mistake. I think the designers were lazy, they thought of the European version as an afterthought and did not want to modify the basic shape of the keyboard so they squeezed the enter key into the existing "space" from the American keyboard plan.

Yeah, that Return key is bizarre... but it's no newsflash that Apple are fiercely US-centric and don't give a crap about other countries, but they still want their money so they put in just the minimum effort needed to get by.

Many OSX translations are pretty lousy. iWorks is only available in English, French and German, while M$ Office is available in any obscure language of your choosing. It took aeons for the Weather widget to recognize any location outside the US (when I tried to set it to Stockholm, Sweden it would point to Stockholm, New Jersey). The iTunes stores outside the US carry pretty much nothing, especially in terms of video content, but Apple tries to cram Apple TV down European throats anyway. And don't get me started on the iPhone which was tailor made for some outdated network type used only in the US, and legacy supported in some European countries. Took them a year to figure out what the rest of the world uses. You never see such cocky nonchalance from companies like Microsoft, Logitech, Dell, HP or others. And now that the US dollar is barely worth the paper it's printed on, you'd think Apple would seize the opportunity for some competitive pricing in Europe, for once, but instead they're seizing the opportunity to make extra extra truckloads of cash, leading to the worst US vs. International price ratio in the company's history. In Sweden, the Mac Pro starts at the equivalent of 4000 USD... that's the US price + 43%. Yeah, go ahead, rob the eurotrash...

 

[Infrared]

Yeah, that Return key is bizarre... but it's no newsflash that Apple are fiercely US-centric and don't give a crap about other countries, but they still want their money so they put in just the minimum effort needed to get by.

Many OSX translations are pretty lousy. iWorks is only available in English, French and German, while M$ Office is available in any obscure language of your choosing. It took aeons for the Weather widget to recognize any location outside the US (when I tried to set it to Stockholm, Sweden it would point to Stockholm, New Jersey). The iTunes stores outside the US carry pretty much nothing, especially in terms of video content, but Apple tries to cram Apple TV down European throats anyway. And don't get me started on the iPhone which was tailor made for some outdated network type used only in the US, and legacy supported in some European countries. Took them a year to figure out what the rest of the world uses. You never see such cocky nonchalance from companies like Microsoft, Logitech, Dell, HP or others. And now that the US dollar is barely worth the paper it's printed on, you'd think Apple would seize the opportunity for some competitive pricing in Europe, for once, but instead they're seizing the opportunity to make extra extra truckloads of cash, leading to the worst US vs. International price ratio in the company's history. In Sweden, the Mac Pro starts at the equivalent of 4000 USD... that's the US price + 43%. Yeah, go ahead, rob the eurotrash...

Much as I'd like to disagree with you, I can't really. I would say this
though: although Microsoft has superior multilingual technology, they go
out of their way to make it difficult for you to use it. Suppose you
have Vista Premium, the most popular version of Vista. You want to
change your UI language? You have two options:

(i) You must reinstall and hope your DVD has the language pack you need
on it. Not all OEM DVDs come with all the available language packs (most
people have an OEM version of their Windows system). If you go this
route, you can only install one language. If someone else in your family
wants to use a different language on your computer, they can't. If you
want to switch again, you have to reinstall the whole OS again.

(ii) Upgrade to Ultimate. The most flexible option. Also very expensive.
On Microsoft's site the Vista Premium to Ultimate upgrade price is
$159.00.

Oh, and want to add a language to Office 2007? Microsoft will happily
charge you for that, too ($24.95):

http://buy20.trymicrosoftoffice.com/buyus/product.aspx?family=langpack&culture=en-US

 

[Trigger2007]

lol loving the thread but seriously if you trying to make us believe that apples poor hardware design is based on the fact that the dvd drives dont have an eject button, your only really looking at the surface!!!

I've just added 3 hard drives and more memory to my new mac pro and it has to be the easiest system to work with!!

Having come thru years of PC's and cables to being able to just slide in a hard drive and remove boards to attach memory to, this is by far in way advanced over PC's I've worked with.

 

[Anuba]

Much as I'd like to disagree with you, I can't really. I would say this
though: although Microsoft has superior multilingual technology, they go
out of their way to make it difficult for you to use it. Suppose you
have Vista Premium, the most popular version of Vista. You want to
change your UI language? You have two options:

(i) You must reinstall and hope your DVD has the language pack you need
on it. Not all OEM DVDs come with all the available language packs (most
people have an OEM version of their Windows system). If you go this
route, you can only install one language. If someone else in your family
wants to use a different language on your computer, they can't. If you
want to switch again, you have to reinstall the whole OS again.

(ii) Upgrade to Ultimate. The most flexible option. Also very expensive.
On Microsoft's site the Vista Premium to Ultimate upgrade price is
$159.00.

Yeah, the whole thing with the myriad of Vista editions is just depressing. You'd think they would've learned from the mistake of creating two different XP editions, Home and Pro, but no... they just had to make SIX editions this time. I use Ultimate, however, so I wouldn't know about the limitations in Home Premium. I have 33 language packs to choose from, including relative oddities like Latvian and Slovak.

Oh, and want to add a language to Office 2007? Microsoft will happily
charge you for that, too ($24.95):

http://buy20.trymicrosoftoffice.com/buyus/product.aspx?family=langpack&culture=en-US

Yeah, that sucks, but my point was that at least it's available in loads of languages. iWork has a truncated set of localizations (eight, I believe). If Apple is serious about world domination they need to do better. They could start with a Return key that isn't so small you need a Q-tip to press it.

 

[mchalebk]

With good design you should not need to use google to find out how to do any basic function.

You're right, that's why they give you a manual. The following is from page 25 of the MacPro manual (by the way, the manual does show the eject symbol in the parentheses):

To open the drive, press the Media Eject () key on your Apple Keyboard. If your Mac Pro has a second optical drive, press the Option and Media Eject () keys to open it.

No matter how common some piece of gear is, there is always the possibility that you might not be able to figure out some basic function. That's why they provide a manual. If, for some reason, you don't have the manual, you Google.

To state that it's a bad design that something is not intuitive just because YOU weren't able to figure it out does not mean it's actually a bad design. But if it takes you several hours to figure out something that you could have learned from the manual (or Google) in five minutes, than you ARE an idiot.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Oh you know me. I'm just meddlesome that way. I have a term paper due the next day and I just can't help turning on the iMac that's currently off in order to write it.

What else would I be doing?

I guess the libraries I attend are different from yours. Don't know any library where they keep the computers off during the day.

 

[Eraserhead]

iWorks is only available in English, French and German,

I've just gone and checked Pages for which languages have a .lproj file inside them (i.e. which languages it is translated into), it contains folders for Dutch, English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish and zh_Ch (I imagine Chinese of some sort).

It took aeons for the Weather widget to recognize any location outside the US (when I tried to set it to Stockholm, Sweden it would point to Stockholm, New Jersey).

This has worked since day one for me (and I don't live in the US) by typing in Oxford, United Kingdom or (I imagine) Stockholm, Sweden and doesn't seem a big deal to me .

In Sweden, the Mac Pro starts at the equivalent of 4000 USD... that's the US price + 43%. Yeah, go ahead, rob the eurotrash...

That's because VAT is included in the price in Europe and the cost of business is higher as they have to translate into all of the European languages. Additionally the dollar has done quite badly against the Euro in recent months, maybe its done similarly against the Swedish krona...

 

[Anuba]

What you mean every other computer in the world? There's Apple and there's PC.
Any apple user can say the same thing about PCs... WHAT?? After I uninstall my software I have to keep looking for another 50 files that are somewhere in the system??? WHY??? I just clicked UNINSTAL SOFTWARE.

While I hate uninstallers that don't do their job properly as much as the next guy, in all fairness most of them work fine. If you have a problem with residual files after uninstallation, then how is the Mac better? The old drag-application-folder-to-trash method is hardly a solution, as there are often more files under /Library/Application Support, /System/Library/Preferences and a dozen other places. The difference is that on the PC, the files just sit there and hog space, while on the Mac they can bring down the system.

Example: I have this firewire audio device (Yamaha 01X) that I originally planned on moving back and forth between my iMac and my PC. Sadly I had to scrap the idea, because once the driver was installed on the iMac, the device had to be present at all times or else Leopard would hang on startup (the perpetual blue screen thing...). A major bummer, and unexpected, as the PC copes just fine when the device isn't connected, it just shrugs and moves on. Right, so how do I uninstall? Guess I'll toss it in the trash. No wait, it's still freezing on startup. So what was installed and where? Is there at least an installation log? Nope. After 20 minutes of pulling my hair out I managed to track down a rare uninstallation guide (2 pages long) written by someone who had gone through the same ordeal. I followed it... but the machine would still hang. After another 15-20 minutes of browsing obscure system folders I managed to find a file (some miniscule MIDI device driver thingy for the Yamaha's onboard MIDI) that wasn't in the homemade uninstallation guide. And voilá, the iMac was fine again.

The way I see it, the Mac is like the boy in the bubble. It's protected by the mere fact that its maker hand picked the hardware, wrote the OS and most of the software on it. Therefore it stays perfectly healthy most of the time in this controlled environment. But if some foreign object manages to sneak inside the bubble and into the Mac's nostrils, the Mac contracts AIDS and dies -- as many Leopard users found out the hard way after installing the initial 10.5.0 release, when the system would grind to a halt due to some DivX plugin or ShapeShifter or whatever it was.

Windows on the other hand has no comfy bubble protecting it, it's out there in the gritty real world, in the ceaseless barrage of quirky third party soft- and hardware, malware, and the infinite stupidity of users and software developers alike. Over the years it has developed a certain ruggedness and a bit of an immune system. Not that it can hold its own against the really cancerous stuff like trojans just yet, but as long as the air it's breathing is only moderately filthy, it will at most catch a cold.

Speaking of the absence of eject buttons and foreign objects penetrating the bubble... remember back when thousands of iMac users (the G4 "blob") had to take their machines to repairs because copy protected music CDs would get stuck inside, and had to be physically removed? That time, screwdriver and pliars was the only solution.

I've just gone and checked Pages for which languages have a .lproj file inside them (i.e. which languages it is translated into), it contains folders for Dutch, English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish and zh_Ch (I imagine Chinese of some sort).
Yeah, that's correct. There are 8 localizations included. Personally I don't mind, but if Apple wants to give M$ a proper run for their money, they have some way to go from 8 to 33...

This has worked since day one for me (and I don't live in the US) by typing in Oxford, United Kingdom or (I imagine) Stockholm, Sweden and doesn't seem a big deal to me .

Trust me, Stockholm Sweden wasn't available, and no other Scandinavian location either. Big deal? Nah. It just struck me as slightly aloof.

That's because VAT is included in the price in Europe and the cost of business is higher as they have to translate into all of the European languages. Additionally the dollar has done quite badly against the Euro in recent months, maybe its done similarly against the Swedish krona...

Yeah, the USD is now worth 6 SEK. Five years ago it was 12 SEK. European businesses are bending over backwards to keep their prices reasonable on the US market despite microscopic margins, so one would expect American goods to be cheaper -- not more expensive than ever. I know we have a draconian VAT in Sweden (25%), but this doesn't even begin to explain a price difference of 43% -- and as for cost of translations, well it ships with the same damn Leopard DVD everyone gets, with all localizations included. The same vast price difference is reflected across their entire product range, not just computers but iPods, iPod accessories etc. There are no additional translation costs for an iPod sock, right?

 

[notjustjay]

Well, whether the product is an Apple computer or some new wristwatch sized gizmo, you would think that people in the IT or technology field would have a certain level of intuition about how things ought to work. For the most part I can take an electronic device that I have never seen before, and after some exploratory poking and clicking, I can figure it out. I can't explain it, that's just how I work. If pressing a button doesn't work, I try holding it.

The worst Apple design had to have been the "pizza box" PowerMacs, where the power switch was right next to the (button-less) floppy drive. I first saw this on a display model at a store, and said to my buddy "Hey! Apple's finally putting eject buttons on their computers!" Sure enough, I poked at it... and the whole computer turned off.

 

[Killyp]

But if some foreign object manages to sneak inside the bubble and into the Mac's nostrils, the Mac contracts AIDS and dies

You've never had sex education have you?

 

[Anuba]

You've never had sex education have you?

You're looking for medical accuracy in a metaphor about a computer getting infected with HIV...?

Really?

OK, here goes: Relax! Your Mac can't get infected with HIV via its nostrils, unless you insist on f***ing it up the nose. It can however get infected if you plain f*** it in either of the three designated holes, or inject it with heroin using an infected syringe, or perform a blood transfusion using a pint of blood you won in a wrestling match at the Y.


Really?

 

[Infrared]

While I hate uninstallers that don't do their job properly as much as the next guy, in all fairness most of them work fine. If you have a problem with residual files after uninstallation, then how is the Mac better? The old drag-application-folder-to-trash method is hardly a solution, as there are often more files under /Library/Application Support, /System/Library/Preferences and a dozen other places.

Don't get me started on uninstallers!

Ok, I got started

Apple's updates are usually of a high standard. But I hate it that Apple's
updates have the potential to wreck your system and they don't come with
uninstallers. There are two cases, the bad and the terrible.

BAD: Normal updates - no uninstallers - reversible if you reinstall OS X.
TERRIBLE: EFI updates - no uninstallers - completely irreversible.

No matter how good you are, no matter how well you test these things,
eventually something will go wrong. And when it does, you need some
fallback option. For the EFI updates there is no fallback option. Apple
are playing with fire here.

 

[GregPacker]

You're right, that's why they give you a manual. The following is from page 25 of the MacPro manual (by the way, the manual does show the eject symbol in the parentheses):



No matter how common some piece of gear is, there is always the possibility that you might not be able to figure out some basic function. That's why they provide a manual. If, for some reason, you don't have the manual, you Google.

To state that it's a bad design that something is not intuitive just because YOU weren't able to figure it out does not mean it's actually a bad design. But if it takes you several hours to figure out something that you could have learned from the manual (or Google) in five minutes, than you ARE an idiot.

You cannot have read my post very well. I did not struggle with the eject button, and certainly not for several hours. As I said in my post it took me about 10 seconds to realize what was different, but that I can understand why a new user might not keep trying. As for manuals, a new user might not have a manual if they are using an Apple computer at a friends house, or library, or office, or school, or second hand computer etc, and they might not have internet access to begin with either. Maybe the disk they want to insert is the drivers for their new modem?

My mention of missing key symbols in a manual related to the option and command keys in my power mac G4 manual. In those days the second symbol on the command key was not "cmd" like it is now, so it was even more obscure back then, just and a cloverleaf. The option key meanwhile is what most new users would probably expect to be called the alt key. I mean how many uninformed people would guess that the symbol on the option key stands for "option"? Why not write "option" or "opt" on the key, as it is such an important thing in Mac OS?

It seems obvious that good design makes something as easy as possible to use, without assistance from any source. A inexperienced user doesn't want to find a manual and find the right page and read it before they can insert their first cd. You and I can work it out quite easily but could your mother for example? (that's not intended as an insult by the way!) In what way would it compromise the machine to have a little eject button next to each drive slot? Apple could still ignore and hide the plastic button that is often present on the front panel of an OEM drive, to keep the pretty metal case and put their own design of aluminium button anywhere they want. I don't think eject buttons would spoil the lines of the case at all, just like the power button looks fine on the tower, where a new user would expect it to be.

I think the main reason Apple have now made it necessary to hold the eject button down is due to their new placement of the eject button on the keyboard. On the Apple pro keyboard it was at the very top right of the numeric keypad, and unlikely to be hit by mistake. Now it is just above the delete(US)/backspace(EU) key so it is bound to be hit a lot and the long press time is required to get around that. Presumably the new placement of the key is to keep uniformity with the chopped down wireless aluminium keyboard. Personally I would rather they used the key's position or relief to make accidental presses less likely, rather than making its behavoiur different to other keys.

 

[Digital Skunk]

This post belongs in this thread

OH!

MY!

GOSH!

This thread is hilarious!

 

[chakosticks]

When I first encountered a beige G3 in a computer lab in the late 90's I had no idea how in God's Green Earth to eject my ZIP disk from the drive. The Fonzie method totally did NOT work.

 

[Firefly2002]

I guess the libraries I attend are different from yours. Don't know any library where they keep the computers off during the day.

It's actually the library at our college... there's a lab of about 15 to 20 2.4 GHz iMacs.... I don't think the tech people turn them off, it was probably a student. To be honest though, with all their talk of environmentalism, it wouldn't hurt to at least put them to sleep while no one's using them

When I first encountered a beige G3 in a computer lab in the late 90's I had no idea how in God's Green Earth to eject my ZIP disk from the drive. The Fonzie method totally did NOT work.

Haha... I'm actually typing on one as we speak. I haven't used the Zip drive in many years, and there's a hard drive in place of the Zip disk, but I seem to recall it being a push that got it out? Is that right or am I misremembering? Maybe that was something else... hm.

 

[maxrobertson]

What the heck is the point of this thread? So annoying..

 

[Digital Skunk]

What the heck is the point of this thread? So annoying..

Oh yeah! Forget to comment on the topic of the thread. The OP is obviously lying, IT guys aren't completely brain dead. I know they live in a Windows world, which is somewhat more fruitful given the hardware options, but there is NO WAY three guys could have been that blind and miss how to eject an optical disc from a Mac, a system that has been pretty standard since (from what I have experienced) OS9.