RANT: Correct me if I am wrong but.....

[yojitani]

Why is this topic continuing (he asks as he continues it!)?

Look at it this way. Say that the class had covered chapters 1 - 5 of a textbook and you were to receive an exam on those chapters. You would revise those chapters not knowing what exactly would show up on the test. From an educator's point of view, that is the point of the test. Studying reinforces areas that the test may not cover. Now student X misses the test and then asks his/her classmates what the test covers. Even if this is meant in the most general way, the question defeats the purpose of the test. It also gives student X an unfair advantage since s/he might get the information, for example, that the test covers chapters 1 and 4.

CylonGlitch has the possibilities covered.

 

[Signal-11]

While the professor's response was abrupt, if he thought you were attempting to do what it reads like you were attempting to do he would have every right to initiate disciplinary proceedings in accordance to your college's honor code.

I don't think that would get very far before the game got called off on account of the student's stupidity.

Speaking as a college professor, rescheduling tests to accommodate students creates a great deal of extra work for us. So much so that some of my colleagues simply refuse to do it. If you are sick, you miss the test, too bad. I do it providing it is an unavoidable situation, because sometimes things just happen.

Yes, it is a lot of work and a big headache, but it's a part of the job. It's my opinion that professors who won't reasonably accommodate extenuating circumstances are lazy and irresponsible. If he or she doesn't like make-ups or reschedules, there should be some mechanism to account for unexpected events. Otherwise, he's not taking his teaching commitment seriously enough.

 

[swiftaw]

Yes, it is a lot of work and a big headache, but it's a part of the job. It's my opinion that professors who won't reasonably accommodate extenuating circumstances are lazy and irresponsible. If he or she doesn't like make-ups or reschedules, there should be some mechanism to account for unexpected events. Otherwise, he's not taking his teaching commitment seriously enough.

I agree, which is why I offer make up tests if there are unavoidable circumstances. However, I also refuse makeups for other reasons, for example, if the student chooses to go on vacation during the semester.

 

[Zombie Acorn]

The fact that you think no rule exist about giving information from a past class tells me you just haven't the faintest clue what rules are actually in place at many institutions for higher learning.

I have to agree here, this rule is stated in the academic honesty policy in most colleges. Violation of the academic honesty policies usually lands you in front of a disciplinary board with possibility for expulsion, I recently turned a kid in for plagiarism (its senior level work, no excuse).

 

[mags631]

I would send a short, well-thought out apology taking responsibility and explaining (briefly) my intentions. I don't think you need to offer to take a zero on the test, unless you actually were given material -- this offer is mostly a mind-game, and you are not going to endear yourself to the professor with it. In this email you need to point out that:
1) You were in the wrong because of such poorly asked question
2) Clarify whether you actually received information about the test and if you did what kind of information it is
3) Thank him for calling you out and teaching you a valuable lesson about being thoughtful and clear in your communications.

The net is either you were looking for advantage or you were being sloppy in your communication. Next time, try to impress your professor with professionalism and clear communication instead of the typical sloppy student approach to school.

 

[abijnk]

Just a general comment. This is a matter of ethics, and the company I work for uses a phrase in their training that I think people need to keep in mind more often, and definitely applies in this situation.

Ethics isn't just about doing the right thing, its also about avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

The OP's intentions might have been innocent enough, but its not the professor's job to delve down into your intentions. Again, appearance of impropriety.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

I've never heard of being sick in college as an excuse to not find out what is being covered in class so you can keep up. He was gone for a week, he most likely has a syllabus that roughly covers the class. If not he should have called the professor so he could do his studies while missing class.

I've been told since junior high school to find out what I missed from my peers, why would I stop now?

We are talking college courses here also, that's usually 3 courses a week at most be missed. (Ive been to two colleges and they both had mwf tth schedules. I think the intent of the poster was to get a leg up on the test. Did the poster ever say whether he originally sent this message to the prof? I would have turned him in.

3 course a week? If you're taking four classes (which is often required to graduate in four years if you're taking 3-4 unit course) you would miss 8 classes, considering they're often held twice a week (ie Tuesday and Thursday or Monday and Wednesday).

That's exactly it, "you think." You have no evidence of what his intent actually was and neither does the professor. Its relatively easy to misunderstand the intent of an email and unless you were in his head you'll never know what his intent was. The professor could at least have called him in to his office (far more appropriate than sending an email in this situation) and talked to him about it, instead of reacting like a pompous jerk.

That makes absolutely no difference whether "ultra-specific material" was given or not.

Cheating is Cheating and getting any sort of advantage as to what was and wasn't on the test....is an unfair advantage.

Yeah, it kind of does. Finding out what chapters a test covers is vastly different than finding out what exactly is on a test (ie what the questions focused on, what some of the questions were, etc.). I've never had a professor that didn't inform the class of what chapters the test covers during class, finding out what he told the class is pretty different than finding out precisely what is on a test. If I received that email I would have replied with, "Chapters 1-4" or "Partnership Accounting and Investment Accounting."

His wording is, at best, vague as to what he is seeking. The professor could have very easily sent him a professional quality email instead of the threatening in tone one that he did or better yet he could have called him into his office, considering he had no possible knowledge of whether the student was seeking specific information or vague information that was available to the rest of the class prior to taking the test.

I would send a short, well-thought out apology taking responsibility and explaining (briefly) my intentions. I don't think you need to offer to take a zero on the test, unless you actually were given material -- this offer is mostly a mind-game, and you are not going to endear yourself to the professor with it. In this email you need to point out that:
1) You were in the wrong because of such poorly asked question
2) Clarify whether you actually received information about the test and if you did what kind of information it is
3) Thank him for calling you out and teaching you a valuable lesson about being thoughtful and clear in your communications.

The net is either you were looking for advantage or you were being sloppy in your communication. Next time, try to impress your professor with professionalism and clear communication instead of the typical sloppy student approach to school.

That is probably what I would do. Better yet, I would probably just go talk to him during his office hours. Why everyone relies so much on email to communicate to their professors I'll never know (I'd much rather go communicate with them in person so they learn who I am and so that I in turn become closer to that professor; makes it much easier to get graduate school recommendations when a professor actually recognizes you and better yet, knows who you are).

 

[Zombie Acorn]

I've been told since junior high school to find out what I missed from my peers, why would I stop now?

Because now it has consequences such as expulsion. Good luck using the "ive done this since junior high" bit at the disciplinary hearing. Professors have enough trouble with kids distributing tests, etc from the previous semester.

3 course a week? If you're taking four classes (which is often required to graduate in four years if you're taking 3-4 unit course) you would miss 8 classes, considering they're often held twice a week (ie Tuesday and Thursday or Monday and Wednesday).

I meant at most 3 classes of that particular course the test was in (I was on my ipod touch). Its not like he missed a month of classes.

That's exactly it, "you think." You have no evidence of what his intent actually was and neither does the professor. Its relatively easy to misunderstand the intent of an email and unless you were in his head you'll never know what his intent was. The professor could at least have called him in to his office (far more appropriate than sending an email in this situation) and talked to him about it, instead of reacting like a pompous jerk.

I think his intent was quite clear by mass mailing the class who had already taken the test, asking what was covered on the test.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

Because now it has consequences such as expulsion. Good luck using the "ive done this since junior high" bit at the disciplinary hearing. Professors have enough trouble with kids distributing tests, etc from the previous semester.

I've been encouraged in college, as well, to find out what I missed from my peers. The thing is, I don't usually need to. I email the professor to tell them I'm going to be out, I ask if we're going to do anything different than what is on the syllabus, I look at the syllabus, check the professors box for any handouts, and I'm pretty much caught up. In rare cases I'll call or email other students if I did not get to email the professor letting him/her know I would be missing class or if the professor didn't respond to my email. I also don't email the entire class, ever. Make some friends in your classes that you can call or talk to in person.

Professors have enough trouble with kids distributing tests, etc from the previous semester.

Its relatively easy to stop that from happening. Professors don't have to allow students to keep their tests. Once a test is kept by a student professors should understand that there is 100% guarantee that somebody in the class the next semester will see it. If you don't want that to happen, or you recycle tests, don't let your students keep their exams.

I meant at most 3 classes of that particular course the test was in (I was on my ipod touch). Its not like he missed a month of classes..

Got it; but it is still tough to recover from even a week of missed classes.

I think his intent was quite clear by mass mailing the class who had already taken the test, asking what was covered on the test.

You think it was clear, there are others think it was quite vague. He clearly should have written a more specific email.

 

[mkrishnan]

Ethics isn't just about doing the right thing, its also about avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

The general idea that one is really, often, as or more responsible for the way one's actions are interpreted than the way they were intended, is a really important lesson... It's hard to get really good at the practice of always avoiding the appearance of impropriety, though! Tough challenge.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Just a general comment. This is a matter of ethics, and the company I work for uses a phrase in their training that I think people need to keep in mind more often, and definitely applies in this situation.

Ethics isn't just about doing the right thing, its also about avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

The OP's intentions might have been innocent enough, but its not the professor's job to delve down into your intentions. Again, appearance of impropriety.

Wise words, my friend. Thanks for sharing them.

 

[DiamondMac]

I don't think that would get very far before the game got called off on account of the student's stupidity.

Why would the game get called out due to stupidity? The stupidity is the reason it would continue.

Yes, it is a lot of work and a big headache, but it's a part of the job. .

In many cases, it isn't. I say many cases because missing a test for whatever reason should in fact mean the student got a 0 though teachers give opportunities to make it up through make-up tests which are NOT REQUIRED

Now, if someone has an excused absence....then I agree.

 

[DiamondMac]

Finding out what chapters a test covers is vastly different than finding out what exactly is on a test (ie what the questions focused on, what some of the questions were, etc.). I've never had a professor that didn't inform the class of what chapters the test covers during class, finding out what he told the class is pretty different than finding out precisely what is on a test. If I received that email I would have replied with, "Chapters 1-4" or "Partnership Accounting and Investment Accounting."

If done before the exam is given, that is fine.

But when someone asks

what Mr. Racers first test covered.

It is very obviously asking what the questions on the test covered

That is cheating plain and simple

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I've been encouraged in college, as well, to find out what I missed from my peers. The thing is, I don't usually need to. I email the professor to tell them I'm going to be out, I ask if we're going to do anything different than what is on the syllabus, I look at the syllabus, check the professors box for any handouts, and I'm pretty much caught up. In rare cases I'll call or email other students if I did not get to email the professor letting him/her know I would be missing class or if the professor didn't respond to my email. I also don't email the entire class, ever. Make some friends in your classes that you can call or talk to in person.

Yes you may be told to find out from your peers but that means you ask 1 or 2 of your friends in the class.
Sending out a mass email like that raises a lot and I mean A LOT of red flags. That was the mistake made.

I been on the receiving end of an over reaction by a professor and this was not an over reaction. You want an over reaction is when professor grab me after class and said she knew I was cheating and was going to figure out how. That was the over reaction to my test scores in a matter of 2 test going from near the lowest in the class to class high.

 

[Ttownbeast]

I have been doing law for years now. What in god's name are you talking about?

Due process is afforded to SOME students who have been caught and turned into a Disciplinary Board. No due process is needed to be given to the student in this situation WHEN HE IS GETTING A DAMN WARNING.

Due process applies for all levels of disciplinary action in an educational setting it does not just involve disciplinary boards, due process starts with the teacher in the room at the moment of the act just the same as it starts with the officer investigating a traffic infraction at the scene of the incident before the matter even reaches any disciplinary body such as a court or a board. I don't know what law you've been "doing" you could clarify that a bit.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

If done before the exam is given, that is fine.

It is very obviously asking what the questions on the test covered

That is cheating plain and simple

Except its still not that plain and simple. What "Mr. Racer's first test covered" could just as easily imply what chapters as more detailed information on the test. You can certainly still find out what chapters a test covered even if the rest of the class has already taken the test. Now if he was intending to get answers with specifics, I would entirely agree with you. For instance, if he wanted to know that the test was heavily focused on installment liquidation calculations and creating liquidation advanced distribution plans. For me the question was phrased so vaguely I would hesitate to jump to the hasty conclusion that he was attempting to cheat.

Yes you may be told to find out from your peers but that means you ask 1 or 2 of your friends in the class.
Sending out a mass email like that raises a lot and I mean A LOT of red flags. That was the mistake made.

I entirely agree. But the simple fact that he sent it to the whole class doesn't mean he was trying to cheat; does it raise red flags? Yes, but the professor could have been more professional in dealing with the situation. Calling the student in for a talk would have been more appropriate than jumping to conclusions.

 

[GoCubsGo]

wow thanks guys!!

The funny thing is..even when i was out sick, I'd email him all my professors and give them status updates on how I was feeling. Every single teacher EXPECT this guy emailed me back. And it's funny that his first email to me is threatening me.

You are wrong and the above does clearly show that despite most replies supporting your professor in his thinking (not to say they support the manner in which he responded), says to me that you're going to equate this to him not really caring about you. This is college, depending upon the size of the school professors do not see you, they see a number. It could be more intimate in your college, but that is the case in many colleges.

Hopefully you can save face and stick it out in the class.

 

[Ttownbeast]

It seems simple enough to me in the sense that many people assume guilt first due to personal issues of distrust and jump to that conclusion rather than taking a moment to investigate objectively--not exactly presuming innocence before any guilt is proven, but at least admitting you don't know and studying a matter further.

 

[sushi]

Ok, why would he e-mail his professor if it were not something as innocent as needing information for studying for a make up test?

Yes, why not?

The professor is the one giving the class. Why would you not go to the source?

 

[Signal-11]

Why would the game get called out due to stupidity? The stupidity is the reason it would continue.

Taking the events as a whole... It's like when professional athletes get caught 'cheating.' Sometimes, they're not cheating, they're just plain stupid. It's become fairly evident to me what side of the line this is on.

In many cases, it isn't. I say many cases because missing a test for whatever reason should in fact mean the student got a 0 though teachers give opportunities to make it up through make-up tests which are NOT REQUIRED

Now, if someone has an excused absence....then I agree.

"Excused absence"? What are you talking about, grade school?

I'm talking about a guy in my class saying he can't make the mid-term date because it coincides with his National Guard drill and you're talking about "excused absences." I don't think we're on the same wavelength.

Anyway, teaching is a two way street. Required or not, if you're not willing to put extra effort into your teaching on behalf of your students, then maybe you shouldn't expect your students to put extra effort as your students.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Except its still not that plain and simple. What "Mr. Racer's first test covered" could just as easily imply what chapters as more detailed information on the test. You can certainly still find out what chapters a test covered even if the rest of the class has already taken the test.

Except sending it out to the whole class means that there is almost 100% chance he will get more information then he should. SOMEONE will give him more details. Unless he is despised by the entire class; he will get more then he should.

From the way that the has responded to some of the posts here, I would say that he knew he would get more. Maybe not answers, but more details.

 

[DiamondMac]

Due process applies for all levels of disciplinary action in an educational setting

Remind me again what disciplinary action is being taken here?

due process starts with the teacher in the room at the moment of the act just the same as it starts with the officer investigating a traffic infraction at the scene of the incident before the matter even reaches any disciplinary body such as a court or a board.

Excluding the incredibly off-topic and incorrect assertion of due process, again....what does that have to do with the current situation?

I don't know what law you've been "doing" you could clarify that a bit.

Criminal Litigation, Tax, & Corporate mergers. I practice for a living as well as teach.

Having been inside several Universities where situations like this happened, it is borderline comical to think of you trying to state this case to any board.

 

[Ttownbeast]

Criminal Litigation, Tax, & Corporate mergers. I practice for a living as well as teach.

Having been inside several Universities where situations like this happened, it is borderline comical to think of you trying to state this case to any board.

What is comical is that you're using this as your basis for your teaching expertise. My background is in art but my coursework included the specifics of educational psychology, classroom management, special needs students, study of the laws directly related to education and a hundred other courses to hone my combined management skills and expertise on the subject I chose at that time to teach. You give a general interpretation based on being a lawyer it's not all that simple.

 

[DiamondMac]

What is comical is that you're using this as your basis for your teaching expertise.

I know, it is extremely comical to use real life experience on an issue being discussed.

Your idiotic due process argument tells me you are someone who watches Law & Order and believes throwing out a few legal terms to an issue will mean something will stick.

Due process in this instance....what?

If the kid is being kicked out, then a board discusses the issue but this? Where exactly? I see you just skipped over that previous comment by me.

 

[Ttownbeast]

I know, it is extremely comical to use real life experience on an issue being discussed.

Your idiotic due process argument tells me you are someone who watches Law & Order and believes throwing out a few legal terms to an issue will mean something will stick.

Due process in this instance....what?

If the kid is being kicked out, then a board discusses the issue but this? Where exactly? I see you just skipped over that previous comment by me.

Issuing the warning is just as much a corrective disciplinary action as expulsion had the matter been taken to that level that is one of the basics in classroom management. As for your experience let me put it to you this way--I don't hire a cement mason to wire my house just because he watched an electrician at every construction site. These are separate professions it is just the same as hiring a lawyer to teach and it seems to me your credentials don't exactly parallel those of a general contractor in construction (let's say a law professor trained to teach and knowledgeable in both fields efficiently enough to convey the concepts) they could likely run circles around the both of us. Every specialty from the builder to the teacher to the guy at the pizza joint is usually more specifically trained on the laws that effect their fields directly(building codes, state standards for testing and student behavior, health codes, employees rights and worker safety etc) than the entirety of the law in general, you give no other profession credit for their own regulation with your "I'm doing law so I'm right all the time" drivel.