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RANT: Correct me if I am wrong but.....

Ttownbeast said:
Issuing the warning is just as much a corrective disciplinary action as expulsion
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Well no, they aren't even close to being similar and I would be interested in hearing how they are similar when both give very different results to the student. One stays on the students record for the rest of his life while the other is never put on record and gone after the student graduates. While one has you put in front of a board and possibly kicked out of school (while put on your permanent record), the other is simply an email given to no other besides the teacher and the student.

How exactly are those similar?

As for your experience let me put it to you this way--I don't hire a cement mason to wire my house just because he watched an electrician at every construction site. These are separate professions it is just the same as hiring a lawyer to teach and it seems to me your credentials don't exactly parallel those of a general contractor in construction (let's say a law professor trained to teach and knowledgeable in both fields efficiently enough to convey the concepts) they could likely run circles around the both of us. Every specialty from the builder to the teacher to the guy at the pizza joint is usually more specifically trained on the laws that effect their fields directly(building codes, state standards for testing and student behavior, health codes, employees rights and worker safety etc) than the entirety of the law in general, you give no other profession credit for their own regulation with your "I'm doing law so I'm right all the time" drivel.
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Well no, the credit I give myself is someone who has worked at a University (i.e. School just in case you struggled with that) and someone who has dealt with issues of cheating in instances such as this one. You have nothing to say to that so your best excuse seems to be just either ignoring it or discrediting it, either of which continues your only argument which seems to be diverting the topic to something else.

There are people on this thread who have given reasonable reasons for their argument. Fair enough. You, on the other hand, keep arguing these topics that are laughable at best. Due Process? Public funds?
 
When I was a technical trainer I used the test and quizes to gauge the students, my delivery, and the content.

Having a bank of over 500 questions, it was unlikely the students would be able to gather enough of the questions to cheat.

But I sure did have fun with the students, for example making all the answers on a multiple choice test all the same.

I have read this thread over the last couple of days.
The question of what is on the test can be inferred as a blatant act of cheating..
It could be innocent enough where the words used were not intended in a negative manner.
Imagine walking into a bank and your sitting with your child and they pull something out of a bag and ask what that is. You reply, innocently, this is a stick up......the deodorizer of course. Stick up probably isn't something you should say in a bank.

Quite possible this is the case here, but having been a student at one time and a technical trainer I am leaning toward the cheating side of town on this one.

But whether it is or isn't if I did something like this I would talk with the professor immmediately regardless of my original intent.
 
I'm a TA and if I got your email I'd be sending a similar nasty-gram. You're lucky you don't go to UVA or some similar school with a single-sanction of expulsion.

You have got to clear this up with your professor if your intentions were innocent.

Anyone who thinks the professor is overreacting must take cheating lightly. Cheaters are scum that in most cases deserve to be kicked out of whatever academic institution they are at.
 
Badandy said:
As an academically honest student, I just decidedly disagree with the sentiment in this thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong in how I'm perceiving this:

Please answer this so we can all stop arguing with each other.
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Even if his intentions were pure as driven snow, it was still a poor choice that bordered on breaching academic guidelines. At best, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do.
 
I would like to add more to this defending the professor actions. Professors are sick of the blatant cheating going in their classes most of which they can not prove.
Take for example a student knew while I was at college. He would cheat on close books test by hiding his text book in the restroom and when he got to a problem he was stuck on he told the prof that he "needed to go to the bathroom". He would go look up the answer and back to the test. He would go 3-4 times during every test. Or he would hide a piece of paper with notes on it. it was very bad. One of the professor was getting sick of it and tired to get him expelled. Hell the kid went in front of the review board at least once if not twice and got away scott free. Students could not stand him for this cheating either because it ruins the value of our degree because he was so dishonest.
This kid was a weasal. He got caught cheating on one test. Proff threw him out and gave him a zero for it. He argued it and went over the prof head and force the grade to be changed. Weasel of a kid. My GF who was a TA had troubles with him and went to the prof about it and he just said give him what you think he deserve I will back you 100% (and that how she learned about how much the prof hated this kid) I think he got a D and he was pissed about it but tired to argue it. To bad for him that there was proof that showed he earned that grade.

It is very difficult to expelled a student even more so when it is a student who knows every loophole in the book.
 
Again we assume dishonesty on the part of the student with the "kill them all let god sort them out" attitude. This is the biggest reason why I decided not to teach and went into a better paying job (I still tutor individuals and small groups privately for a commission on my own time). I've seen the cynical nature of many teachers assuming the worst of students rather than remaining objective in the field many of the teachers I have assisted while student teaching would go to their peers for advice and wind up getting a lot of opinionated gossip instead. Good educators dismiss this as garbage and try not to let it effect their professionalism by instituting preventative measures to minimize the problems before they get worse, if a teacher complains a lot about the behavior of their students there's fair odds they don't know what the hell they are doing.
 
Iscariot said:
Even if his intentions were pure as driven snow, it was still a poor choice that bordered on breaching academic guidelines. At best, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do.
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Students will make poor choices they are learning isn't that the point?
 
I think the professor overreacted a bit, but then again I'm usually one to give the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. If it were me, I would have called the student (OP) in to discuss it personally.

That said - like others have mentioned - the wording of the e-mail could definitely have been better. It's like dealing with security at the airport, you don't want to make comments that could even remotely be construed the wrong way.
 
Ttownbeast said:
Students will make poor choices they are learning isn't that the point?
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And this professor, while it was done in a gruff manner, did give him a second chance. Frankly, I think the tone was fine especially for the university level. The students are no longer kids, they are young adults. If they cannot handle direct communication, then they have much larger issues.
 
dmr727 said:
I think the professor overreacted a bit, but then again I'm usually one to give the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. If it were me, I would have called the student (OP) in to discuss it personally.

That said - like others have mentioned - the wording of the e-mail could definitely have been better. It's like dealing with security at the airport, you don't want to make comments that could even remotely be construed the wrong way.
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Oh hell especially not at an airport some of those guys don't even have GEDs or speak English very well.
 
If I were that professor, I would have cited you officially for academic dishonesty and turned it in immediately.

You asked people who already took a test that you didn't what was on it, basically.
 
This type of stuff can be slippery. I've had a prof accuse me of cheating (pen died during a test so I pulled another one out from my bag, he thought I was looking at notes or something despite the fact that my bag only had gym clothes and pens, whiteout, etc. in it). He was snarky about it, I got offended.... and ended up having another prof mark my test. Point is, don't overreact. Just explain yourself, apologize for poorly chosen words and hope he doesn't think his MA/PhD means he is better than you. A lot of profs and TA's have this ****ing power complex that unfortunately is part of undergrad life.
 
sikkinixx said:
This type of stuff can be slippery. I've had a prof accuse me of cheating (pen died during a test so I pulled another one out from my bag, he thought I was looking at notes or something despite the fact that my bag only had gym clothes and pens, whiteout, etc. in it). He was snarky about it, I got offended.... and ended up having another prof mark my test. Point is, don't overreact. Just explain yourself, apologize for poorly chosen words and hope he doesn't think his MA/PhD means he is better than you. A lot of profs and TA's have this ****ing power complex that unfortunately is part of undergrad life.
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This.

I understand professors need to be cautious and skeptical, but some have the egos of Michael Jordan.
 
sikkinixx said:
This type of stuff can be slippery. I've had a prof accuse me of cheating (pen died during a test so I pulled another one out from my bag, he thought I was looking at notes or something despite the fact that my bag only had gym clothes and pens, whiteout, etc. in it). He was snarky about it, I got offended.... and ended up having another prof mark my test. Point is, don't overreact. Just explain yourself, apologize for poorly chosen words and hope he doesn't think his MA/PhD means he is better than you. A lot of profs and TA's have this ****ing power complex that unfortunately is part of undergrad life.
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You got offended that a teacher was suspicious about someone reaching into their bag during a test?

I don't blame the teacher.

I have seen students doing just that before AND were reaching for cheat sheets
 
I would print out your initial email and the professor's reply and take them to the dean and tell him/her how offended you are by the professor's reply. It's best to let a credible third person know the whole story in case it turns nasty between you and the professor.
 
canuhandlethis8 said:
Hey all,

I was out last week sick, i was wondering what Mr. Racers first test covered.

Thanks
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I think you worded it quite well. It is ambiguous enough that your professor has no proof that you attempted to cheat, yet open ended so that other students may offer you specific information although you never explicity requested it.

You should check the specific rules at your university, but at mine it would be impossible for the professor to take any sort of action over a message with such clever wording.

I've been accused of "academic dishonesty" at my university and due to certain precautions I took I was able to take the side of "You are making a very serious accusation without sufficient proof, I find this very offensive and I don't take it lightly." I had the professors apologize to me, instead of me kissing up to them.
 
Capt Crunch said:
I'm a TA and if I got your email I'd be sending a similar nasty-gram. You're lucky you don't go to UVA or some similar school with a single-sanction of expulsion.

You have got to clear this up with your professor if your intentions were innocent.

Anyone who thinks the professor is overreacting must take cheating lightly. Cheaters are scum that in most cases deserve to be kicked out of whatever academic institution they are at.
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You've got to be kidding. That is not even close to cheating...if the professor was worth his salt he would have a different version of the exam already prepared for people who missed it to take as a "make up".

He could easily ask friends in the class verbally what was on the exam. It isn't until someone removes exam materials that it can be considered cheating.

Relax.
 
173080 said:
It is ambiguous enough that your professor has no proof that you attempted to cheat, yet open ended so that other students may offer you specific information although you never explicity requested it.

You should check the specific rules at your university, but at mine it would be impossible for the professor to take any sort of action over a message with such clever wording.
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At most higher educational institutions, this is plenty.

It is very clear on what is being requested even though people are trying their best to come up with any excuse possible.

As for your story on being apologized to, what exactly did you do to make a professor accuse you of cheating? Did he actually apologize or are you saying that for effect of the story?
 
oldschool said:
He could easily ask friends in the class verbally what was on the exam. It isn't until someone removes exam materials that it can be considered cheating.
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Woah, Woah....what?

Where exactly did you come up with that idea? It is cheating the minute he requests information about the test, whether that is by word of mouth or cheating.

Students all over the country are in fact turned in for cheating due to conversations they have had with other students out loud at school. Several kids just this semester were booted out of a local law school due to discussing an exam given a few days earlier. I heard their appeal.

Cheating is Cheating and has nothing to do with JUST removing materials.
 
oldschool said:
You've got to be kidding. That is not even close to cheating...if the professor was worth his salt he would have a different version of the exam already prepared for people who missed it to take as a "make up".

He could easily ask friends in the class verbally what was on the exam. It isn't until someone removes exam materials that it can be considered cheating.

Relax.
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The professor shouldn't have to rewrite the exam just for this kid. The fact is he has to because undergraduates cheat. In fact, it almost never happens at the graduate level. Why? Because graduate students generally aren't stupid enough to cheat. I've taken the same test as my classmates two days late and at home. No problems.

You don't even have to get the exact answers from your friend to have an unfair advantage on a test. Suppose questions types a, b, c, d, and e are things you are supposed to know for the test. Supposed only types b, c, and e show up on the exam. Now you don't have to study for two things, which is an advantage.

It sucks when you have to rewrite a test for a student. Not only is it a waste of time for the professor (who usually gives it to a TA, so it wastes my time), but it makes whatever curve given to the other students meaningless with respect to the student who had a makeup.
 
The entire planet is dysfunctional if we all thought the same way life would be so friggin dull.

<----oh looky here my status changed when do I get my members only jacket?
 
DiamondMac said:
Students all over the country are in fact turned in for cheating due to conversations they have had with other students out loud at school. Several kids just this semester were booted out of a local law school due to discussing an exam given a few days earlier. I heard their appeal.
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I hope you mean discussing an exam with a student who hadn't taken it yet. At all of the institutions I've attended students start discussing exams with each other about 20 seconds after they've finished taking the test. It is pretty unrealistic to expect students not to discuss exams they've already taken with each other.
 
rhsgolfer33 said:
I hope you mean discussing an exam with a student who hadn't taken it yet. At all of the institutions I've attended students start discussing exams with each other about 20 seconds after they've finished taking the test. It is pretty unrealistic to expect students not to discuss exams they've already taken with each other.
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Even then there's still a bigger problem for the professor, they might be offering more than one class on the same subject during the term say an 11:00 mwf, a 3:00 mwf, and a 10:30 t/th there could be more than 100 students on campus who have taken the test in that period of time (even if exams are offset from the schedules) they cannot all be expected to be so tight lipped about the subject matter of an exam (even several terms after they took it), but they aren't likely to just say what answers go where on the test itself, finding out what subjects the tests cover is to no great advantage to the student, the material still has to be studied or the student will likely fail the make up exam anyway.
 
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