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“They saud the same thing about the iphone”


Oh right, totally same situation because everyone in the world already uses and depends on vr like they did with phones before the iphone.

Yep. Getting pretty tired of that comparison. It's also just not true that "everyone thought the iPhone would fail". A few tech nerds who were dedicated to phones with keyboards thought Apple was making the wrong choice by not including a keyboard. I don't think many predicted just how successful the iPhone would be, but acting like everyone was against it is just false.

Also, to the "Apple always releases game changers" argument: the HomePod. The HomePod was an example of Apple being a bit late to the market and failing to change the game. The same thing could happen with these goggles.

Or who knows, maybe that Apple YouTube channel whose name I can't recall at the moment is correct and Apple will discontinue the iPhone in a few years in favor of goggles... 🤷‍♂️
 
Another use case is television. I see the future as having no television sets at all. They’re getting bigger and bigger and why have them if you can accomplish an even more immersive experience with something that covers your view and peripheral vision?
3D television again.
 
The point Jobs was making is what happens when product people are driven out of decision making forums within companies and the focus moves away from making great products.

The industrial design is not the product in and of itself. An iPhone with no software is not a product. Industrial design does not do the critical engineering necessary for Apple's products ( as pointed out in the story often Engineering has to get ID out of the corner they have painted themselves into. ) Something that doesn't go into production manufacturing isn't really a product at all either.


Sounds very similar to what is being rumoured here.

it really , really doesn't. It sounds like one member of the product realization team efforts thinks their part is the only important part . Stifling product A so that more effort will be put into product B is a lack of team/'big picture' focus. that isn't what Jobs was talking about at all. The "toner heads" were not even on the production realization team at all.
 
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Yeah I honestly do not see a point in this. If they were literally also a PC VR headset as a secondary feature cool - but it seems so limited and cumbersome. Had it been glasses you can wear normally out in public (like the engineers were hinting at) otherwise….
 
The few use cases that would interest me would be if you could have a conversation with shared FPV. That sounds fun. Imagine one person traveling and sharing their view with someone in real time. “ I know who wants walk around with goggles on their head?!” But it could become normal or at least the product could morph more into sunglasses as we know them today.
A shared point of view would be a neat gimmick, but I don't think anyone is going to spend several grand for that feature. No headset is going to become the sunglasses of the future either. Maybe AR sunglasses one day, but not a big VR ski goggle-style headset.

Another use case is television. I see the future as having no television sets at all. They’re getting bigger and bigger and why have them if you can accomplish an even more immersive experience with something that covers your view and peripheral vision?
Paired with apples or Sonos theatre speakers or personal AirPod pros. You can see how the other ideas are going to make more sense. “Spatial audio” Apple TV shared viewing etc. eventually Apple TV can just be a hub for all your Apple devices and I really see by 20 years from now there will be no tvs in a home.
Whenever people bring up television, they seem to forget a few things...

A family of 4 will need to buy four headsets instead of 1 TV. If the headset really does cost $3K, that's $12K for headsets instead of $1K, give or take, for a good TV.

And what happens when you want to invite friends over for movie night or to watch the big game? Is everyone supposed to bring his or her own headset? And what about the people who don't have a headset? Maybe you plan to buy a few extra headsets for when you have guests?

No. This is will most definitely NOT replace TV for most people. If you live alone and only watch TV by yourself, sure, but that's not the norm.

Gaming will be a feature but until Apple partners up with Nintendo, Microsoft,Sony, steam. It’ll just be iOS Apple game store feature cuz why not.
I have zero faith that Apple will deliver a good gaming experience. They've never done gaming right. iOS gaming is like going back in time to the 80s arcade with modestly better graphics. Such games are not going to sell a $3K headset.

Unfortunately, when it comes to gaming, Apple has a terrible reputation and it will truly take an act of God, so to speak, to change that. The only hope, as you note, is for Apple to partner with someone else (or acquire them). Not going to happen with Microsoft or Sony. Many of us have hoped for years (decades!) that Apple would acquire Nintendo. An Apple headset with Nintendo exclusive titles would definitely shake things up.

The last use case and the most useful for me is education/business. Imagine a camera deep faking your own face onto your face without goggles then wearing the goggles and appearing to everyone as your are in a room physically separated but virtually together. That’s what “zoom” of the future could be like.
The educational market isn't going to buy a $3K headset. I don't see that happening. To be useful as a classroom tool, each student would need one, plus whatever additional hardware is required to support it. It's highly doubtful that the headset will be a standalone product. More than likely, it will need an iOS device or Mac for setup, etc.

I also don't see business as a viable market for several reasons. First, Apple doesn't really target enterprise customers. They are a consumer electronics company and they will focus on that market. Second, there are many purpose-built VR/AR solutions already targeting various business customers.

People mention AR-assisted surgery all the time as a possible use case. There are already a lot of companies in that field. When it comes to medical products, the standards are also much much higher. There can be no latency. Things have to work 100%, 100% of the time. Much like Apple hasn't turned the Watch into a true medical device, I don't see the headset being one either.

Of course there are plenty of other potential enterprise customers beyond the medical industry, but I don't see Apple targeting those markets. They don't go after enterprise customers for any of their products. They are happy to have those customers, but consumers are their bread and butter.

Your zoom of the future idea is neat, but we're right back to the TV use case. For what you describe, each person on that "zoom" call will need a $3K headset. Is seeing a virtual person in a "zoom" call really worth $3K per participant when everything works pretty well right now with the computer on your desk or phone in your pocket? I don't see businesses investing that kind of money (especially these days) for a device that marginally improves the video conferencing experience.

Pretty much every potential use case is something that existing VR products can accomplish today, yet the category remains largely unpopular. Even if Apple delivers an astounding product, they still have to overcome general consumer indifference towards the whole VR category and I don't see a $3K device accomplishing that.

I don’t know why Facebook is pushing this meta verse thing but it’ll be an interesting example of how someone can force something To work by throwing enough money at it. But I heard someone say once that the worse thing you can do to solve a problem is throw more money at it. I’ve never tried meta but it doesn’t look like something I want to ever try either. Time will tell.
Well, the metaverse has been a complete disaster for Meta/Facebook, so I think that's very telling. Plenty of people will blame Meta's implementation, not the concept itself. To me, however, it's very obvious that, outside of a small gaming niche, the public just isn't interested in VR.
 
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It’s hilarious that people here are comparing a $300 Oculus with any high end VR headset. The starting price point is around $1000. Yes, that includes the PSVR2. If Apple does ship at $3000 then yes, it’s x3 more expensive than other competitors.

If Apple ships with much higher resolution panels and with the accompanying hardware to properly drive those panels (120+ fps), that price point may be justified.
I don't think resolution or hardware is the problem when it comes to market acceptance, though. Look at Nintendo. Their gaming consoles have the worst graphics of the big three, yet they are wildly popular because the games are great. Apple will need to do a lot more than deliver the best hardware and graphics to convince the general public they need VR in their lives.
 
It could work. The Apple Watch was arguably not ready for launch when it did. I had the original, and it was just too slow for most of the things it claimed to be able to do to be a good experience. But now, it's a success.

However, with AR/VR being hyped as a potential successor/replacement for computing in general, I'd think they'd want to wait until they had something really compelling for the masses. Obvious uses that everyone is going to want. Gaming and Apple aren't going to be it. And a big bulky VR thing on your face at the current state of technology isn't it either. But maybe they can make into a device for everyone down the line.
 
Interactive workouts? I just cleaned a mold contaminated building wearing protective gear. That’s about as much of a workout as I care to get wearing goggles strapped to my head.
Lol. Yeah, the workout use case is pretty much the most ridiculous one I've read! Whenever I read a post from someone saying they workout with their Oculus, I just roll my eyes and wonder what sort of silliness those people call a workout.
 
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However, with AR/VR being hyped as a potential successor/replacement for computing in general, I'd think they'd want to wait until they had something really compelling for the masses. Obvious uses that everyone is going to want. Gaming and Apple aren't going to be it. And a big bulky VR thing on your face at the current state of technology isn't it either. But maybe they can make into a device for everyone down the line.
Outside of a few frothing forum fans, I don't see anyone hyping AR/VR as a replacement for computing in general. I'm quite sure Apple doesn't want to replace the iPhone, Mac or iPad with something else. They want to sell you an iPhone, Mac, and VR headset, not a VR headset instead of your Mac/iPhone. Like the Watch, Apple's AR/VR headset offerings will be designed to grow the ecosystem, not replace parts of it.
 
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We shouldn't judge this until Apple enters the space.

Apple has completely changed the game almost every time they enter a new product category with a perfectly refined device and cohesive user experience.
'Almost'. Let's not forget that even those that succeeded took a few years to mature to an acceptable level.
 
HomePod is the only Apple product mentioned as an Apple failure product in the last 20 years. It’s always HP. Meanwhile HomePod is back and now leading the way with HP mini
imagine thinking homepod or homepod mini leads the way. They're pathetic. I await your reply about sales numbers, instead of a functional device. So long as Siri is awful, the homepod isn't worth the paper it's written on.
 
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On the other hand: he might be doing a partial release to developers, like they did with the M1 Mac-Mini.

To get the ball rolling on apps for the device.
 
Maybe there is a hidden demand yearning to be met. People above have given some great examples for professional use, but I just don't see it yet in the consumer space. I remember watching Ready Player One and thinking how great that would be, but for now it's still me in my lounge pants bumping into my couch table, so my excitement is muted.

You're already using consumer "augmented reality", only that you're looking down at your phone to do so. The restaurant you're standing outside of? Should we try this place? You pull out your phone and look at its rating. That's an internet enabled augmentation of reality. The iPhone brought the internet to your real life when previously it used to be locked away on desktops and laptops.

What these glasses will eventually do is make that seamless – direct interaction versus indirect, in the same way that the iPhone transitioned computer UI to direct interaction (touch) vs indirect (cursor based).

Killer apps for this technology will only start to appear when their eventual inventors are out in the world using it. Uber would've been impossible if you had to lug around your laptop and connect to a cafe's wifi to call a car. That came from its founders having iPhones and the power of the App Store to make an idea possible.

It can get better with AR. You come out of a restaurant onto the street, ask Siri for a ride and it shows you nearby cars. Hail one by raising your arm (even if it's still a block or more away) and you'll see it highlighted as it approaches you.

Some other standard ideas:

You're at a conference and LinkedIn has GPS and face recognition to point out the attendees at the conference and makes networking so much more powerful by showing you who to talk to and giving you info like their name, position and common connections. That would make approaching someone way more efficient – no wasting time with people who have no networking potential – and less awkward since you know their name and can mention people you both know.

You're at a bar and people there who have their AR Tinder enabled can like each other. You see a hot girl, a red heart hovers over her, you see her profile and wink at her in the app. It's a match! She had liked you earlier.

You're planning your new living room. Look at it and position furniture virtually in your space. You decide to go to IKEA to get a sense for the furniture in real life. As you walk the aisles, you wonder if a couch you're looking at will fit. Your glasses had previously taken the measurements of your space and confirms it. You're now standing in your virtual living room in the IKEA showroom with the real couch there for you to touch and get a feel for in your space.

You're travelling in a new city and ask Siri to get you a rental car, the ZipCar app pops up and shows you walking directions to the closest car. As you arrive in the lot, a little bouncy arrow points at the car which glows as you approach it, it unlocks and you get in and drive away, with directions to your destination in your field of view and your Apple Music playlist playing on the car stereo with zero setup or plugging in.
 
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Who is gonna want this thing? I mean c'mon there are already some of these from other companies and that isn't a big market.
I asked on a birthday party yesterday and no one sees the point in using this thing.
They all agreed even though you couldn’t actually define the use case, price or specs of “this thing” 😆
 
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The article tries to have it both ways:

On the one hand, Tim Cook is obsessed with his legacy, of which this new device will be central.

On the other hand, we’re made to believe Tim is rushing this out the door against the designers will.

Call me naive, but those two don't seem mutually inclusive.
 
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You're already using consumer "augmented reality", only that you're looking down at your phone to do so. The restaurant you're standing outside of? Should we try this place? You pull out your phone and look at its rating. That's an internet enabled augmentation of reality. The iPhone brought the internet to your real life when previously it used to be locked away on desktops and laptops.

What these glasses will eventually do is make that seamless – direct interaction versus indirect, in the same way that the iPhone transitioned computer UI to direct interaction (touch) vs indirect (cursor based).

Killer apps for this technology will only start to appear when their eventual inventors are out in the world using it. Uber would've been impossible if you had to lug around your laptop and connect to a cafe's wifi to call a car. That came from its founders having iPhones and the power of the App Store to make an idea possible.

It can get better with AR. You come out of a restaurant onto the street, ask Siri for a ride and it shows you nearby cars. Hail one by raising your arm (even if it's still a block or more away) and you'll see it highlighted as it approaches you.

Some other standard ideas:

You're at a conference and LinkedIn has GPS and face recognition to point out the attendees at the conference and makes networking so much more powerful by showing you who to talk to and giving you info like their name, position and common connections. That would make approaching someone way more efficient – no wasting time with people who have no networking potential – and less awkward since you know their name and can mention people you both know.

You're at a bar and people there who have their AR Tinder enabled can like each other. You see a hot girl, a red heart hovers over her, you see her profile and wink at her in the app. It's a match! She had liked you earlier.

You're planning your new living room. Look at it and position furniture virtually in your space. You decide to go to IKEA to get a sense for the furniture in real life. As you walk the aisles, you wonder if a couch you're looking at will fit. Your glasses had previously taken the measurements of your space and confirms it. You're now standing in your virtual living room in the IKEA showroom with the real couch there for you to touch and get a feel for in your space.

You're travelling in a new city and ask Siri to get you a rental car, the ZipCar app pops up and shows you walking directions to the closest car. As you arrive in the lot, a little bouncy arrow points at the car which glows as you approach it, it unlocks and you get in and drive away, with directions to your destination in your field of view and your Apple Music playlist playing on the car stereo with zero setup or plugging in.
Fantastic comment 👌

This thing will inevitably lead to new use cases and capabilities we cannot envision today.
 
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Apple learned a very important lesson with the original HomePod: if you release products with all the great features you can put into it, there is no clear upgrade path. Tim now knows this and so this “release before it’s ready” is expected. Now they have a clear upgrade path, with releasing the features that aren’t quite ready now in subsequent generations. You can already predict the marketing: massive improvement in performance, incredible battery life, even more fluid interaction, more responsive, the best VR display ever put into a headset, etc.
 
Fantastic comment 👌

This thing will inevitably lead to new use cases and capabilities we cannot envision today.
thats the point of innovation isnt it?

I create AR, and have bet the house on it [literally]. For me it is magical, and I am just blown away at what we can do right now.

This is the start and it needs time to grow. I have no doubt this first headset will have all sorts of compromises, but hopefully Apple [as usual] will get the foundations nailed to build upon.
 
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I'm prepared to eat my hat if I'm wrong and plenty of people thought the smartphone in general was a product nobody needed, but I just don't see a clear use case for a product like this -- at least not from Apple and not in the consumer space.

  • Immersive gaming is probably a big one, but Apple has never been a gaming platform for these kinds of games.
  • Everyday AR might be neat, but not with ski goggles.
  • Immersive FaceTime with long-distance partners, family or friends I can see, but the price will be too steep just for that.
That leaves all sorts of business and professional use cases. Frankly I don't know enough about that so I'm not going to make stuff up, but there does not appear to be great traction for others already in the market.

So who is this product really for?

I (and many others) have been saying it for years: VR/AR an awesome technological solution in search of a problem.

I'll never debate that it isn't impressive, a technological marvel, and super cool.

But I don't need it and I don't want it because it won't improve anything in my personal life or my professional life. I've had probably a dozen different jobs in my life - not one of them would have been easier, better, or more productive with VR/AR.
 
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That’s a good point, however this a market akin to 8k tv. The infrastructure for it do well requires content. So this kinda like HyperCard hypertext was before the WWW greatly proliferated hypertext used in new ways to greatly expand the web surfing for information. AR examples is to increase the depth of information that isn’t available now readily interactively accessible.

It is augmented reality , not artificial reality. The majority of content for augmented reality is reality. Reality already exists, it has been created already. Likewise the information about things that exist in the world likely already exists. The engine in your car probably has a repair manual already. The bulk of the information can 'augmented' on top of the view of the car engine largely exists already in another format. Your car/aircraft speed is generated by another sensor and can be overlaid in the head's up display. Make the turn at the next corner after the gas station.... that really already existed... just was not overlaid on top of dynamic view.

Similar with body scan... body already exists. Scan it with some non visible spectrum scanner and then put the data into a visual format. The content is coming out the real world.

Apple AR scan of the iPhone/Mac/etc product on your desk. The iPhone/Mac/etc Apple product already existed. 3D diagrams and pictures of products that already exist.

Folks bend over backwards to twist AR into some superset of VR. If having a meeting with 4 people have to create 4 fake people when the 4 real people already exist. It is mainly a collaborate task on an object is that really necessary?


Have a bigger need for software more so than content. Apple has been rolling things out over the last several years.


2019

2021


2022


This distinctly differs from the more video game and artificial world focused 3D models creation process from scratch of nonexistent objects. ( the VR==gaming crowd ... which is a myopic take on the issue. )


People can scan their own room/house/chair/thing and create something. ChatGPT is whipping up stories and artwork willy out of a description that users create. There is a ton of hype that only super specialized artists can create stuff. That really isn't true. Especially in the context of just duplicating a minor/limited/simplified variation of something that already exists.



The first market should be around educational knowledge and scientific presentations. Eventually more interactive online shopping almost virtual.

Professional education in a exploratory lab yes.

The 'it has to be a fun game to teach' zone? probably not for a $2-3K product.

Similar with hard science. Two three folks tryign to figure out what the data visulization is saying. Sure. The path of future scientific journal publications and conference session presentations? Probably not.

Similar in augmenting professional diagnostics/inspect/fix contexts where the equipment is expensive to fix and very critical to get done correctly.
 
The industrial design is not the product in and of itself. An iPhone with no software is not a product. Industrial design does not do the critical engineering necessary for Apple's products ( as pointed out in the story often Engineering has to get ID out of the corner they have painted themselves into. ) Something that doesn't go into production manufacturing isn't really a product at all either.



it really , really doesn't. It sounds like one member of the product realization team efforts thinks their part is the only important part . Stifling product A so that more effort will be put into product B is a lack of team/'big picture' focus. that isn't what Jobs was talking about at all. The "toner heads" were not even on the production realization team at all.

Yes. Im a software engineer i understand that software is a part of tje product.

It sounds to me like the design team fundamentally disagree on what the product should be.

Sounds like Tim is happy to ship 1 million units of a very limited product.
 
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I think that Tim wants to retire and focus on other things. Apparently, he said in an interview that he wanted one more big product launch before the goes.

I'm concerned that this won't be ready too. It's happened in the past where first generation of a product was soon superseded by a better, more functional model, and I've been an early adopter in the past and regretted it later. I'm sure a lot of of other people have been in the same position, being very excited by Apple's announcements. I'm become more cynical in terms of be aware of the language, feeling it to be somewhat hyperbolic at times. I'm still a big fan tho, despite my Mac Studio being made obsolete soon. It will suit my needs for a few years yet.
 
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