Retina MBP UI performance - with video

[davidmcguigan]

Right but

the resolution of the iMac is not so much smaller than the res on the retina. And the iMac deals with this high resolution for SOME time now even at core2duo times. I've never experienced a lag.

Second:
If the many pixels would cause this problem....then....hook up the cinema display with a standard Macbook Pro. This machine is not lagging at all driving even MOOOORE pixels.

Corect me if I'm wrong.

What you're missing is the point that Apple is rending everything at twice the target/simulated resolution, which IS much bigger than 2560x1440, and THEN for every single frame per second doing a giant quantity of other calculations to generate the compound final resolution ( 2880x1800 ) image. So it's doing a LOT more work for every frame per second than iMacs at 2560x1440. Even a MacBook Air with integrated graphics can drive a 30 inch 2560x1600 monitor relatively smoothly for basic tasks, throw what OS X is trying to do with the retina at it though and you'll see it choke like a 90 year old smoker.

 

[mr.bee]

What you're missing is the point that Apple is rending everything at twice the target/simulated resolution, which IS much bigger than 2560x1440, and THEN for every single frame per second doing a giant quantity of other calculations to generate the compound final resolution ( 2880x1800 ) image. So it's doing a LOT more work for every frame per second than iMacs at 2560x1440. Even a MacBook Air with integrated graphics can drive a 30 inch 2560x1600 monitor relatively smoothly for basic tasks, throw what OS X is trying to do with the retina at it though and you'll see it choke like a 90 year old smoker.

So does this mean the rmbp is actually so ahead of it's time, that by the time all software is retina optimised, and it doesn has to do the double rendering, this system will run perfectly smooth?

So why did the Anandtech guy gave such a shortsighted conclusion about the lack of power?

 

[Bradllez]

Anyone test lag while updating to the Mountain Lion GM

 

[stevelam]

So does this mean the rmbp is actually so ahead of it's time, that by the time all software is retina optimised, and it doesn has to do the double rendering, this system will run perfectly smooth?

So why did the Anandtech guy gave such a shortsighted conclusion about the lack of power?

What? It still has to do "double rendering". Thats the whole point of retina display.

 

[archurban]

I guess that retina display seems to use too graphic power. that's why UI movement is lagging little bit. I saw another day which somebody tested UI. it got average 21 fps. it's really crappy hell. it is supposed to happen that way. someone, who bought it, is a part of beta hardware tester as always Apple product does. here is advice. (I used mac more than 17 years. so I know what Apple has been done so far). just one important thing. DON'T BUY THE FIRST EDITION OF ANY APPLE PRODUCT. if you will, you would get a problem.

 

[deerfaced]

I don't experience anything that bad with mine (leopard, w/recent update)

I get the odd jitter in launchpad, but that's it. I never really use that anyway.

 

[davidmcguigan]

Sad

Sad to report that though Mountain Lion and the Safari update help quite a bit graphics/scrolling performance is still tangibly laggy and STUPID. I'm really disappointed. I ended up keeping mine. God damn this beautiful, terrible, amazing screen.

 

[Rajpdx]

I guess that retina display seems to use too graphic power. that's why UI movement is lagging little bit. I saw another day which somebody tested UI. it got average 21 fps. it's really crappy hell. it is supposed to happen that way. someone, who bought it, is a part of beta hardware tester as always Apple product does. here is advice. (I used mac more than 17 years. so I know what Apple has been done so far). just one important thing. DON'T BUY THE FIRST EDITION OF ANY APPLE PRODUCT. if you will, you would get a problem.

I just saw this post. It's too late for me now - I've already bought it.

Could you do me a favour and let me know when I get the problem please?

Thanks

 

[stevelam]

My 2008 MacBooks UI is smoother than my RMBP. Kind of embarrassing really.

 

[cjred]

My 2008 MacBooks UI is smoother than my RMBP. Kind of embarrassing really.

yah my 2009 MBP is way smoother...but a cannot stand looking at older screens already my goodness. The only problem here is the sluggishness of the UI but the rest are oK.

Some website are quite smooth but very terrible in heavy content sites!

 

[davidmcguigan]

I just saw this post. It's too late for me now - I've already bought it.

Could you do me a favour and let me know when I get the problem please?

Thanks

Will do. It'll be about the same time you decide to use a computer for more than Facebook and eBaying for leotards

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My 2008 MacBooks UI is smoother than my RMBP. Kind of embarrassing really.

Worse than embarrassing it's extremely frustrating. I just checked Apple.com after basically resolving to go into an Apple store and talk them into letting me return the RMBP for a regular Ivy MBP with similar specs...

Only to see that you can't get Apple-configured MBPs with 16GB of RAM unless it's a retina. That's seriously scammy. If you want the most RAM available, you have to get a retina, which means you also have to accept first generation netbook graphics performance and a seriously laggy rig when not plugged into an external monitor with the lid closed. That's just messed up Tim.

----------

yah my 2009 MBP is way smoother...but a cannot stand looking at older screens already my goodness. The only problem here is the sluggishness of the UI but the rest are oK.

Some website are quite smooth but very terrible in heavy content sites!

So out of curiosity do you work on your RMBP's screen all day? If so how do you combat brontosaurus neck? I've aspired to do that but can't deal with having my head tilted downward all day long and always end up pansying out and using external monitors on stands. Thanks.

 

[Sambo110]

Will do. It'll be about the same time you decide to use a computer for more than Facebook and eBaying for leotards

Yes, my super fast Macbook struggles with more than light browsing. Of course.

So out of curiosity do you work on your RMBP's screen all day? If so how do you combat brontosaurus neck? I've aspired to do that but can't deal with having my head tilted downward all day long and always end up pansying out and using external monitors on stands. Thanks.

I guess my neck isn't incredibly weak, as I can use my Macbook for hours on end with no problems. And wouldn't that be a problem with every Notebook in the world, not just the rMBP? So why single it out?

 

[Rajpdx]

Will do. It'll be about the same time you decide to use a computer for more than Facebook and eBaying for leotards

Cool. Promise me you'll disengage your right hand and type the note using both hands this time

 

[Panini]

I just saw this post. It's too late for me now - I've already bought it.

Could you do me a favour and let me know when I get the problem please?

Thanks

Just scroll down to this post.

 

[Sambo110]

Just scroll down to this post.

Scrolling is actually pretty smooth on Lion now. Though to be honest, scrolling says exactly nothing about the performance of a machine. Doing actual work on this Macbook would be hugely faster than my $1500 gaming PC, even though that scrolls smoother. People need to get over sub-60FPS scrolling.

 

[davidmcguigan]

Yes, my super fast Macbook struggles with more than light browsing. Of course.




I guess my neck isn't incredibly weak, as I can use my Macbook for hours on end with no problems. And wouldn't that be a problem with every Notebook in the world, not just the rMBP? So why single it out?

I wasn't singling it out. Most people don't work on laptops full time without plugging them into monitors as far as I know. I was asking because that quote made it sound like the guy doesn't use regular monitors at all any more because they're not as nice looking as the retina.

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Cool. Promise me you'll disengage your right hand and type the note using both hands this time

I don't get what you mean. Because I forgot the period?

----------

Scrolling is actually pretty smooth on Lion now. Though to be honest, scrolling says exactly nothing about the performance of a machine. Doing actual work on this Macbook would be hugely faster than my $1500 gaming PC, even though that scrolls smoother. People need to get over sub-60FPS scrolling.

It's really not. Give it some time. I hit slow scrolling and graphics performance all day long across a variety of applications. Just to be safe, I completely wiped the HD and installed Lion from scratch Tuesday night after I read that ML would hit Wednesday. It's sub 15 FPS scrolling a lot of the time. It's insanity.

And the machine itself really doesn't feel that fast. Apple really really really needs to focus on bringing OS X up to par with any Windows experience in the last decade. I hit the beach ball of pain pretty frequently. Is it just me or does OS X just struggle sometimes when you type too quickly? Also Safari in ML is buggy as hell. Random forms don't work ( try leaving a comment on any blogspot.com blog for example, wtf? ) and parts of web pages don't render correctly, like will show a big white empty rectangle instead of the page for a portion of it.

DEAR TIM COOK, PLEASE STEP IT UP SOON THANKS.
- Guy that spent more than $3,000 on your new laptop.

 

[tau101]

My 2008 MacBooks UI is smoother than my RMBP. Kind of embarrassing really.

I am returning my rMBP due to a faulty screen, and have just migrated back to my mid-2009 MBP so I can pack up the faulty model. It's pretty shocking how much smoother the UI on this machine is. Even if I force this notebook to use the integrated graphics the UI appears smoother than the discrete graphics on the rMBP, which is a 2.7/16/768 BTO.

If the replacement rMBP has any issues at all I will be very likely return it for a refund, and fix the numerous issues with this MBP and hold onto it until they refresh the rMBP line.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Please have a look at this video that I took this morning. Lots going on, Facebook and theVerge scrolling is tight and fast, mission control works without so much as a hiccup, and sliding/switching between spaces is smooth as well. And my RMBP is doing all of this while playing three videos simultaneously - one at full-screen 1080p resolution.

http://youtu.be/Dudx1GhHGiY

I understand that others are saying they are having issues, but I just don't see any on my end.

 

[tau101]

Please have a look at this video that I took this morning. Lots going on, Facebook and theVerge scrolling is tight and fast, mission control works without so much as a hiccup, and sliding/switching between spaces is smooth as well. And my RMBP is doing all of this while playing three videos simultaneously - one at full-screen 1080p resolution.

http://youtu.be/Dudx1GhHGiY

I understand that others are saying they are having issues, but I just don't see any on my end.

Hi AZ.

I'm not sure how many FPS that video is recorded at, but it doesn't seem that it would be sufficiently high to capture the differences I'm experiencing. However, from the particularly low-fps parts apparent in the video the performance you're getting appears very similar indeed to my own rMBP (actually looking a little slower with the handling of the two videos).

It appears to me UI animations (including scrolling) on rMBP generally hover around 25-30 fps, whereas on my 2009 MBP (also maxed-out spec) they are closer to 60fps (indeed, Chrome reports 60fps when scrolling most webpages).

That said, my 2009 MBP is pretty much at its limit once playing a single HD streaming video, and the performance of all other applications are all very badly affected, but usable. With two streaming HD videos, the UI experience is very bad indeed on the 2009 MBP. In general it is getting to the stage when multitasking that I feel I need to upgrade.

The rMBP is significantly better at multitasking, and I've had as many as 5 HD videos running with other applications without any slow-down. However, even when barely doing anything and having to simply navigate around the OS with the GUI it can't seem to match the UI smoothness of the inferior hardware driving a comparatively very low resolution display.

Perhaps I was unreasonable to expect high frame rates at such a high resolution. But I did, simply based on how my old machine performed. And I am certainly quite disappointed.

I'd read Anand's famous comments on driving the retina display prior to purchase too. I still figured that the performance would at least be on par with my 3 year old model. It appears I have some thinking to do. I have become used to every upgrade being an improvement over my previous machine in every way. However, clearly the movement towards such a high-resolution display is quite a novel step.

I am left wondering how long it will be before the GUI can be made to run consistently closer to 60fps, and to what degree this will be driven by software optimisations and hardware advances.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

I'm not sure how many FPS that video is recorded at, but it doesn't seem that it would be sufficiently high to capture the differences I'm experiencing. However, from the particularly low-fps parts apparent in the video the performance you're getting appears very similar indeed to my own rMBP (actually looking a little slower with the handling of the two videos).

The video shows exactly what I experienced. What "low fps parts" are you referring to? I've got three videos playing, all at 1080p @ 30fps and one maximized on the screen, multiple spaces and busy web sites which scroll without issue. My eyes do not perceive any lag, stutter, hiccups, choppiness, or other adjective used to describe the issue. If there was an issue, this sort of load would have made the issue quite obvious - especially since people are saying they see lag and stutter without anything else going on, and I've clearly shown that to be false. I frankly couldn't care less if the UI is running at 30 fps or 60 fps - I must not be able to tell the difference as it looks good to me. Since I don't work on my computer with an FPS counter on the screen, I judge my UI experience through my actual use.

 

[tau101]

The video shows exactly what I experienced. What "low fps parts" are you referring to? I've got three videos playing, all at 1080p @ 30fps and one maximized on the screen, multiple spaces and busy web sites which scroll without issue. My eyes do not perceive any lag, stutter, hiccups, choppiness, or other adjective used to describe the issue. If there was an issue, this sort of load would have made the issue quite obvious - especially since people are saying they see lag and stutter without anything else going on, and I've clearly shown that to be false. I frankly couldn't care less if the UI is running at 30 fps or 60 fps - I must not be able to tell the difference as it looks good to me.

All of the scrolling from 1 minute onward on the verge and facebook look low-fps to me. So do your mission control animations, and transitions between your first space and your fullscreen quicktime video.

Since I don't work on my computer with an FPS counter on the screen, I judge my UI experience through my actual use.

The only FPS counter I have used is in the Chrome task manager, and this was in an attempt to quantify the differences I experience through my "actual use".

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

All of the scrolling from 1 minute onward on the verge and facebook look low-fps to me. So do your mission control animations, and transitions between your first space and your fullscreen quicktime video.

Hats off to you (sincerely), as I don't notice the differences you are talking about. The web pages scroll smoothly to me, if that is the issue everyone is discussing then I think we have made a mountain out of a pinhole.

 

[tau101]

Hats off to you (sincerely), as I don't notice the differences you are talking about. The web pages scroll smoothly to me, if that is the issue everyone is discussing then I think we have made a mountain out of a pinhole.

Well I have to say I only noticed this difference since I have switched back to my old laptop, so certainly it is not a deal-breaker. If Apple are able to provide me a laptop without fault as a replacement I will not be returning it.

Much more significant in switching back is how enormous individual pixels look! It is amazing how out of focus text looks. Also it's very surprising the rMBP is only 25% thinner; resting my palms on my old macbook it feels significantly thicker!

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Well I have to say I only noticed this difference since I have switched back to my old laptop, so certainly it is not a deal-breaker. If Apple are able to provide me a laptop without fault as a replacement I will not be returning it.

Much more significant in switching back is how enormous individual pixels look! It is amazing how out of focus text looks. Also it's very surprising the rMBP is only 25% thinner; resting my palms on my old macbook it feels significantly thicker!

My 17" MacBook Pro from 2007 is in the office driving an old cinema display from 2004. I would have sworn the image on the 24" monitor looked just fine until I started using the Retina screen. Now when I look at the 24" screen I can see the pixels, the anti-aliasing, and it just looks terrible now that I've seen the promised land!

The other thing… the high density of the Retina display makes everything look more "solid" for lack of a better term.

By the way, I can stack up three of my RMBPs to one of my business partner's old Dell laptops. I almost died laughing when I measured. Here is a picture I took last week of one of my friend's PC laptops...

 

[Roman2K~]

I'm no rMBP owner yet, but I have experienced the infamous scrolling lag at an Apple Store yesterday. Honestly I don't know what you all are on about.

It definitely did happen on the three 2.3/8/256/ML that I tested, but it wasn't particularly annoying as the OS remained responsive at all times. Only the area being scrolled was laggy. Meanwhile, no freeze or even the slightest peep of slow down anywhere else. Everything else kept running and moving like normal in parallel.

Out of Safari (bunch of content-heavy sites), Mail, Notes, Reminders, Finder, iTunes, a few others, gesture- and Dock-triggered animations, the only places where I noticed lags (granted, they were significant):

1. Scrolling down a long, heavy Facebook page.
2. Scrolling down a mail thread (right pane) in Mail, even a short single-mail one.

Worth mentioning, those two places were not perfect on a 13" MBA, meaning way better but not perfectly smooth either.

Switching spaces did stutter once or twice very briefly (noticed it because I was focusing on the smoothness, or lack thereof).

Aside from that, I hammered the poor rMBPs with gestures in plenty of apps, including long pages and relatively long and rich pages (not Facebook), expecting stutters like mentioned here, but nothing except the occasional micro-stutter while switching spaces. More importantly, stutter or not, all gestures registered instantly and animations lasted the same time (their end time wasn't offset by the stutter-induced delays).

Really, I was going to the store expecting productivity-hindering lags after having read these forums lately. In the end, the rMBPs are nothing short of mind-blowing in every way. These scrolling lags are the exception, not the rule, and even when they happen, can be looked past comfortably. Not to mention, this is all software. Given the improvements some have noticed going from Lion to Mountain Lion, one can expect further improvements in the future.