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How do you propose that they run their PowerPC applications that cannot be updated to an Intel version and for which there are no alternative programs to use in their stead?[/QUOTE]

I don't really care. That is their problem. I have fixed mine.
 
You can always run the virtual machine inside the freeware "Virtualbox" rather than paying money for Parallels or VMware. I run Win XP, Win 7 and Win 8 that way for testing (every now and then).
 
I don't really care. That is their problem. I have fixed mine.

This only proves your comments are not worth the paper they aren't writtten on! :D

But thanks for the insults, anyways; they got my attention!:)
 
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Yes, Micheal, you can have the last word as usual, just make sure it addresses the issue I asked about. So far all you have done is try to cost me money when it wasn't required. I wonder if you may not have some financial interest in OSX virtualisation software?
 
I think if you already have a snow leopard disk and a mac it can be installed onto, it's a cheaper option to just do it that way. But some of us who have newer macs don't have that option.

So there is no need to insult each other here - we all have different setups for different needs, so lets just accept that and that partitions might be best for some, whilst virtual machines might be better for others. OK?

Also parallels themselves point out the illegality of running snow leopard as a virtual machine on their website. And neither parallels, vmware or virtualbox list it as a supported guest system. But they all support snow leopard server - because it is legal to do so.
 
Sounds like it won't be very powerful though. How much would it cost for the server dick and the parallels disk or VM disk? What is the secondary partition one?

Thanks


It's extremely powerful. VMWare Fusion runs VMs at near native speed-- even better than native in the case of Windows for some applications, since Windows PCs tend to be laden with bloatware and VMs can be quite trim and efficient.

In my work I'm constantly switching between operating systems, so I use it all the time. My rMBP is powerful enough to run several virtual machines at the same time. They can even be run from an external hard disk (though it helps if it's USB3 or, better yet, Thunderbolt). It's a great solution.
 
Also parallels themselves point out the illegality of running snow leopard as a virtual machine on their website. And neither parallels, vmware or virtualbox list it as a supported guest system. But they all support snow leopard server - because it is legal to do so.

[NOTE: This post is not in any way directed to Snow4ever, and it is my hope that he will not read and/or respond to it, but it is his right to do so. However, it will be my right, not to respond further to his posts, should he choose to make them.]

tywebb13: As I noted to you earlier, it was a common Urban Myth that the Snow Leopard EULA prohibited its virtualization in Lion, Mt. Lion and now Mavericks on a Mac. That myth has been debunked in the last few years and is now ignored by most users of Snow Leopard that must so virtualize it.

As I also pointed out, Apple rendered that myth largely moot when it substantially reduced the price of Snow Leopard Server by 95%; now currently selling it for the same $20 as it sells Snow Leopard client.

Since Snow Leopard Server is easier to install and maintain in Parallels, that is the path of least resistance that I now promote in my advice for those who must use PowerPC apps in a concurrent Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks environment.

I have even gone to the effort of helping those non-domestic Mac owners who were unable to obtain a copy of SLS directly from Apple, by purchasing and trans-shipping a copy to them.

Unfortunately, there remains a small minority of Snow Leopard client users who seek my advice on how to install it in Parallels, and I, of course, continue to offer my instructions on how to accomplish that task, as I have since I began this effort back in the latter months of 2011.

It is unfortunate that Parallels had historically posted that support document (which continues to be updated for modern references to "Mavericks" for example), and it is one of the few remaining signposts that continue to confuse users on this subject.

I do not know Parallels' motives in posting that document; I can only speculate as to them. But clearly Parallels, as well as VMWare and VirtualBox can only exist with the contractual cooperation of Apple. Their business plans depend upon it. So, suffice it to say, that these companies will bend over backwards to continue to please Apple.

Now, historically, when pleasing Apple resulted in extra sales of Snow Leopard Server for its established price of $499, Apple just silently smiled in the background as they were pleased to earn an extra $479 for each copy of Snow Leopard that needed to be virtualized.

That day is over, and Apple continues to be silent on this issue and for good reason: why embarrass these companies now for their loyalty in the past!?

At best, Parallels' document can never be construed as a written statement on this subject by Apple; and at worst, it was cleverly drafted by Parallels to be vague on exactly which "Apple EULA" they were referring to! So it is my belief that it was simply an attempt on Parallels part to let Apple have their cake while Parallels eats it too (virtually speaking, of course :D).

At the end of the day, each user should just read the Snow Leopard EULA and come to their own conclusion. Most of those who need to virtualize Snow Leopard client in Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks on a Mac have done so and concluded that that they are not prohibited from doing so.

To those who disagree with that assessment, I say now what I have always said: do not attempt to virtualize Snow Leopard client by following these instructions. Instead, get a copy of Snow Leopard Server and follow my post about Installing Snow Leopard Server into Parallels for DUMMIES!
 
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Well I don't think it is a parallels-apple conspiracy because vmware and virtualbox also do not support snow leopard as a guest system either.

I don't need to prove my cleverness by breaking the law.

So I am happy to rejoice in my dumminess by using snow leopard server as a guest system - legally - and happily!
 
I haven't had to use rosetta in... actually I don't think I've ever needed it in the last few years.
 
How about proving it then, by citing the law you think others are breaking!?! :D

Cite for us the offending provision of the Snow Leopard EULA...

That is the licence you will get if you have snow leopard.

If you try and make the virtual machine of snow leopard using your instructions, you are basically tricking parallels into thinking that it is snow leopard server - for which you do NOT have a proper licence.

So it is not so much about what is the snow leopard licence - rather it is more about what it ISN'T.

It isn't giving you permission to run snow leopard server - or any little tiny bit of it - including the ServerVersion.plist file - which you are using in your instructions.

It also isn't giving you permission to run snow leopard as a virtual machine.

Contrast this with what the Snow Leopard Server EULA allows you to do (which is not in the snow leopard EULA). It gives permission to (i) create multiple customized image files of Apple software and third party software, and (ii) make such image files available on a server for use on an unlimited number of computers at a time. This gives permission to run it as a virtual machine.
 
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I'm surprised anyone tries to help you with an attitude like that.

I did not start with any attitude. That came about by Michael Lax's posts and the attitude he presents. I WAS helped politely and thanked those that helped me decide to stay clear ov running SL in a Virtual environment. I was asking the question for myself, not for others. Most have their own threads and have gone with what suited them best.:)
 
I did not start with any attitude. That came about by Michael Lax's posts and the attitude he presents. I WAS helped politely and thanked those that helped me decide to stay clear ov running SL in a Virtual environment. I was asking the question for myself, not for others.

As you've made clear multiple times, you don't care about anyone's issue but your own. Problem is that you're part of that very group you disparaged earlier in this thread. But this is a COMMUNITY forum, so the expectation should be that people besides yourself may benefit from what's discussed. If all you want to do is help yourself and ignore everyone else, then posting on a forum like this kinda defeats that purpose. And your comments towards MichaelLAX were way out of line IMO, because he was trying to explain things. If you don't like the answer, then ignore it, no need to start attacking people about it.
 
If you don't like the answer, then ignore it, no need to start attacking people about it.

I have. As I your comments. I asked a question, thanked people for helping me with it and I was happy for that to be the end of it, but now the Forum Fan Boys have jumped in with nothing relevant to what I asked. But :)thanks anyway.
 
How about proving it then, by citing the law you think others are breaking!?! :D

Cite for us the offending provision of the Snow Leopard EULA...

There's no mention of "virtual", "virtualization", or "VM" anywhere in the EULA. However, the license is specific to what the OS can be installed on:

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. Single Use License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for the Apple Software, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

So the question is whether Apple would consider Parallels/VMWare an Apple-branded "computer" or not. Interestingly, the Mavericks EULA specifically addresses virtualization with respect to copies obtained through the Mac App Store (copies that shipped with the computer are under the same licensing as Snow Leopard):

(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using OS X Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use.

To me, it seems that unless the EULA explicitly allows virtualization, you could run into legal issues using the consumer version of 10.6

----------

I have. As I your comments. I asked a question, thanked people for helping me with it and I was happy for that to be the end of it, but now the Forum Fan Boys have jumped in with nothing relevant to what I asked. But :)thanks anyway.

Can you reply to anything without attempting to insult people? "Forum Fan Boys" was pretty weak, so maybe you need to try a different approach.
 
Legalities aside, I have to say I'm quite impressed with MichaelLAX's efforts in the thread on making a vm of sl.

When sls eventually becomes unavailable, I think everyone (starting with apple, parallels, vmware and virtualbox) should all relax more about this, and just allow it. This would also solve the problems of difficulty installing it, and the "suspend" problem.
 
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...Contrast this with what the Snow Leopard Server EULA allows you to do (which is not in the snow leopard EULA). It gives permission to (i) create multiple customized image files of Apple software and third party software, and (ii) make such image files available on a server for use on an unlimited number of computers at a time. This gives permission to run it as a virtual machine.

Basically your argument is flawed for the following reason:

Your theory of construction requires an owner of Snow Leopard client to know the license terms of a separate software package, that in most cases they would not own, nor be aware of the terms of that other software packages' license.

To put it in other terms: how many other licenses from other packages of software must a Snow Leopard client owner read before he is confident of what the Snow Leopard EULA provides: 3, 5, 10, 100!?! Of course, the answer is NONE!

Once again, no one has shown me any written statement from Apple that prohibits or otherwise restricts the virtualization of Snow Leopard in Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks on a Mac.

----------

There's no mention of "virtual", "virtualization", or "VM" anywhere in the EULA. However, the license is specific to what the OS can be installed on:

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. Single Use License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for the Apple Software, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

The bolded language that you quote would restrict a 2nd copy of Snow Leopard running on a Mac already running Snow Leopard. "Apple Software" is referring to Snow Leopard; otherwise you could not run any other "Apple software" on a Snow Leopard Mac; clearly not Apple's intention!

My advice is not that situation: Here Snow Leopard is running in virtualization on a Mac that is already running Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks, which is always the situation for which I am advising those who need to run PowerPC apps.

If they could natively run Snow Leopard, there would be no problem running PowerPC apps!

Your quote from the Mavericks license is interesting, but does not apply to Snow Leopards' EULA and how it is run, as I pointed out in my last post about how many other packages of software must one read before they could be confident in their rights to use Snow Leopard!

Once again, no one has shown me any written statement from Apple that prohibits or otherwise restricts the virtualization of Snow Leopard in Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks on a Mac.

----------

Legalities aside, I have to say I'm quite impressed with MichaelLAX's efforts in the thread on making a vm of sl.

When sls eventually becomes unavailable, I think everyone (starting with apple, parallels, vmware and virtualbox) should all relax more about this, and just allow it. This would also solve the problems of difficulty installing it, and the "suspend" problem.

Thank you for your comments!

Your suggestion would require an amendment of the licenses that Apple has entered into with these virtualization companies, but is (hopefully) not impossible to achieve!

As I said before, anyone with an archive of PowerPC data files should purchase SLS while it is available for $20 from Apple NOW and put it on the shelf, just in case...

And from the above discussions, you can see why the Urban Myth was so widely spread! :eek:
 
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The bolded language that you quote would restrict a 2nd copy of Snow Leopard running on a Mac already running Snow Leopard. "Apple Software" is referring to Snow Leopard; otherwise you could not run any other "Apple software" on a Snow Leopard Mac; clearly not Apple's intention!

I know "the Apple software" refers to Snow Leopard, it did come from the SL EULA. The terms of that section can be summarized as such: You can run ONE copy of Snow Leopard on ONE Apple-branded machine. Since the EULA makes no mention of virtualization, the following section from clause 1 of the EULA applies where virtualization is concerned:

1. General. The Apple software (including Boot ROM code), any third party software, documentation, interfaces, content, fonts and any data accompanying this License whether preinstalled on Apple-branded hardware, on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the “Apple Software”) are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. (“Apple”) for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and/or Apple’s licensors retain ownership of the Apple Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to you. The terms of this License will govern any software upgrades provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the original Apple Software product, unless such upgrade is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

Based upon that clause, Apple retains all rights not expressly granted to the user. Since virtualization is not expressly allowed in the EULA, those rights remain with Apple per the terms of the EULA. Notice that that clause covers all means of distribution for Snow Leopard, not just preinstalled or just purchased on disc. Also, for the family pack, the only difference in the terms is that you can install SL on up to five Apple-branded computers in your household, and it expressly states that businesses and corporations are not eligible for the family pack.

Your quote from the Mavericks license is interesting, but does not apply to Snow Leopards' EULA and how it is run, as I pointed out in my last post about how many other packages of software must one read before they could be confident in their rights to use Snow Leopard!

Actually, it directly applies to the question of Snow Leopard virtualization because there is no such language allowing for virtualization in the 10.6 EULA. The Mavericks EULA has the same clause regarding rights not expressly given as Snow Leopard, but virtualization is expressly granted in the case of Mavericks. This argument about people having to read other EULAs is not only irrelevant to the question, but a strawman argument in its own right.

Once again, no one has shown me any written statement from Apple that prohibits or otherwise restricts the virtualization of Snow Leopard in Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks on a Mac.

I believe I just showed that since the SL EULA makes no mention of virtualization, the general clause of the EULA reserves those rights to Apple. Lion was the first OS whose EULA expressly allowed virtualization. The 2013 updated EULA for Snow Leopard (available at http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/osx_snow_leopard_sec_upd.pdf) also makes no mention of virtualization at all. You keep saying that you're right because nobody can show you where it says virtualization is prohibited, but you also can't show where it's allowed. Given that subsequent EULAs (Lion, ML, Mavericks) all expressly allow for virtualization and not even the 2013 updated Snow Leopard EULA mentions it, it's safe to say that it's not allowed under the EULA.

This doesn't mean that Apple will shut down your machine for running Snow Leopard in a VM, nor does it mean they would sue you. But it does mean that if you choose to virtualize the client version of Snow Leopard, you're operating in a gray area at best, since there is definitely nothing in the agreement granting permission for virtualization.
 
I know "the Apple software" refers to Snow Leopard, it did come from the SL EULA. The terms of that section can be summarized as such: You can run ONE copy of Snow Leopard on ONE Apple-branded machine. Since the EULA makes no mention of virtualization, the following section from clause 1 of the EULA applies where virtualization is concerned...

You've put much time thinking about this than most people and while the effort seems laudible; your efforts only continue to needlessly deter those who have no access to Snow Leopard Server, but yet need to run their PowerPC applications on a Mac sold after July, 2011.

Your points can be summarized and responded to as follows:

1. You quote again the bolded language from Section 1 and you acknowledge that "Apple Software" refers only to Snow Leopard and summarize this provision as "You can run ONE copy of Snow Leopard on ONE Apple-branded machine."

In virtualizing Snow Leopard on a Mac running Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks you are doing EXACTLY that: running ONE copy of Snow Leopard on ONE Apple-branded machine. End of discussion on that point - as nothing the user is doing violates that provision.

2. You then cite that the license makes no mention of virtualization. Why does it have to? There are multitudes of activities that an end user does with Snow Leopard on their Mac that are also not mentioned in the license.

These activities are not prohibited by their silence, nor should they be! Imagine the confusion and distruption to the marketplace if that were the standard!

3. You then cite the "reserve all rights" provision that is contained in most if not all important licenses. These provisions are common "catch-all" provisions utilized to protect the licensor in situations that do not encompass such trivial activities about whether or not a copy of Snow Leopard is run natively, on an internal drive mechanism that spins at 5400 RPM, on a SSD, on a flashdrive, in RAM, on a separate partition that is created on these hardware devices, on a separate partition that is created within software (virtualization), etc.

Virtualization is not a "right" in any sense of the word that is encompassed by these typical "reserve all rights" clauses. If the end user has the "right" to place more than one flavor of OS X on one Mac (such as by using Disk Utility to partition their hard drive), they certainly have the right to place more than one flavor of OS X on one Mac by using a "software partition" such as virtualization.

4. You then seem to draw some importance from licenses from subsequent versions of OS X that do explicitly mention virtualization.

There is just no way in heaven that a party to a contract can be held to language that is contained in other contracts not entered into by that party. The consequences of such a principle are just too terrifying to accept!

Consider the disruption to the flow of business in the marketplace by: "Given that subsequent EULAs (Lion, ML, Mavericks) all expressly allow for virtualization and not even the 2013 updated Snow Leopard EULA mentions it, it's safe to say that it's not allowed under the EULA!"

How could companies spend millions of dollars on Macintosh's to do activities for their businesses that might be prohibited in EULA's of future versions of OS X!?! The argument just does not hold water...

The explanation for this change in language, which again is not needed for an analysis of the Snow Leopard license, is simply that once confusion on this issue became apparent, Apple chose to clarify the issue in future licenses.

Apple's concern in the area of virtualization is its use to run their operating systems on hardware that they do not sell; i.e. a Hackintosh! By expressly allowing virtualization of Lion "on a Mac" they clarify an issue that has significant effect on its business model.

In all of my discussions, I have always said that the Snow Leopard EULA allows for virtualization of Snow Leopard on a Mac running Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks!

5. Discussions about the ramifications of what sanctions Apple can take for violations of their license ("shut down your machine" etc.) are perhaps comforting to an end user who has misgivings about the clarity of the legal situation. But it has no weight in a discussion about whether or not virtualization is prohibited in the Snow Leopard EULA.

My use of the phrase: "Once again, no one has shown me any written statement from Apple that prohibits or otherwise restricts the virtualization of Snow Leopard in Lion, Mt. Lion or Mavericks on a Mac" goes not to the EULA itself.

Over three years have passed since the elimination of Rosetta in Lion has caused the turmoil to users of PowerPC applications. Virtualization of Snow Leopard became a clear path for end users to successfully run their PowerPC apps on a new Lion Mac (that will not boot Snow Leopard).

Apple has had every opportunity to declare its "intentions" on a support document, publicity release or otherwise. They have been silent on this issue. I have stated earlier why their silence had financial rewards for them.

Lastly, Apple own Support Forum's Terms of Use expllcitly prohibit the discussion of activities that violate their licenses. This forum is heavily moderated by Apple to remove offending information and in extreme or cumulative cases to suspend a poster's membership for such violations of their ToU.

I have been posting this information about virtualization of Snow Leopard client in Parallels for use on a Mac running Lion (and since then Mt. Lion and Mavericks) for almost three years now on Apple's Support Forum. If Apple agreed with your interpretation of the Snow Leopard EULA, it would have removed these posts long ago.

As I have said previously, this whole debate has been largely rendered moot by Apple's reduction of the price of Snow Leopard Server by 95%. It is clear to me that they made this drastic reduction in price to provide the marketplace an affordable and easy path to continue to run their PowerPC apps in virtualization. There has been no alternative reason to provide end users with Server software compatible with Macs that have no longer been sold since July 20, 2011.

To those end users who prefer to use Snow Leopard client as the underlying basis for virtualization, the instructions on how to do it still exist here, and even on the Apple Support Forum!

Actually, I rarely provide technical support anymore to those who chose to go down this path and have problems. I simply point them to Snow Leopard Server and in some cases assist them in obtaining it...
 
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Guys, stop fighting. This is ridiculous.

My suggestion: use whatever works for you.
It's really that simple.

For the OP, who has the option of creating a partition to boot Snow Leopard and run that way -- that's probably the best way to do it. Who needs emulation, when you can have the real thing?

For others who have-to-have emulation, use it.
Again, use whatever you can put together that works.

And frankly, I don't worry about "license agreements" period.

Faced with a problem, I'm pragmatic.
I do what I have to do, to get to my solution.

That is all....
 
Since when is a serious discussion about important and relevant issues a "fight!"

But thank you for taking time out of your busy day to moderate it! :D

"The first rule about fight club is that you do not talk about fight club!" :D
 
Yep, never going to be seen again...

Virtualisation us probably the only option. There are probably hacks or other ways, but i dunno if any. Or if there are, they would be unreliable.
 
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