Rosetta Won't Support x86 Virtualization Apps Running Windows

[petvas]

It's not surprising that Rosetta will not support x86 virtualisation. Currently I do not run any VMs on my MacBook Pro, but on my iMac I do, mainly for testing Windows Servers. I do not think that it's terrible that we don't have x86 virtualisation on Apple silicon, since there are other options out there, like Azure. I understand that this is not the same, and there is also a cost factor to think about, but I do not see how Apple would support x86 virtual machines on Apple silicon. This is the only negative point for me when I think about this transition.

 

[deconstruct60]

Did they say anything about ARM? Or did they say something about Big Sur, which will run on Intel?

In directly about ARM.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1275483550985318400

if not doing anything with ARM then why asking about how folks might use it. ( which most probably is an more open ask of a question have already asked major customers with NDA (and/or hypothetical story ) covering it. ). Just matching feedback with what already got.

Can see several answers that heavy usage is in the VMs for different Mac OS version space. Which will work just fine going forward with new ARM based macOS versions over time.
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.... If a software is already x64 then porting it to arm64 should be simple, just look at how fast Microsoft ported the huge Chromium browser to arm64.

huge Chromium browser is mostly high level C++/C code. It shouldn't take that long for well crafted code to build on a new system if already have the major OS library API calls in place. Firefox on ARM was out over a year ago.

 

[KPOM]

For what it’s worth, CodeWeavers said that they think that their CrossOver product (which uses WINE to run Windows programs directly on macOS through binary translation similar to Rosetta) will work on the new Macs with Apple Silicon. It works mostly with older and less complex software, but could be a solution for some people.

 

[MikeZTM]

In directly about ARM.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1275483550985318400

if not doing anything with ARM then why asking about how folks might use it. ( which most probably is an more open ask of a question have already asked major customers with NDA (and/or hypothetical story ) covering it. ). Just matching feedback with what already got.

Can see several answers that heavy usage is in the VMs for different Mac OS version space. Which will work just fine going forward with new ARM based macOS versions over time.
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huge Chromium browser is mostly high level C++/C code. It shouldn't take that long for well crafted code to build on a new system if already have the major OS library API calls in place. Firefox on ARM was out over a year ago.

So does a lot of commercial software. Especially those with long history and messy code like Photoshop -- and they showed Photoshop running natively on A12z also.

Shouldn't be a problem for anything that's not an abandonware.
And abandonware will perish regardless of Apple going arm or not.

 

[jkozlow3]

Question (maybe a dumb one)...

Aren't there on-demand Azure subscriptions available for like a few dollars a month for really basic machine configurations that include a Windows license if you only run it for a few hours when needed and power it down when you're finished?

If so, would this work for people who infrequently need to use a Windows VM for some Windows-specific software in lieu of running a VM on their machine? I fall into this category personally - I only need to use the Windows VM on my MacBook a handful of times per year anymore. Just wondering if Azure would be a cost-effective solution for this type of case?

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Well...there you go! No Parallels support unless Parallels finds a way to create a native Apple Silicon-based app/ARM-based app that can then virtualize x86-64.

So, it looks like Windows support is officially going the way of the dodo folks! Be prepared for this if you are thinking about jumping into the Apple Silicon-based platform when these laptops and desktops roll out at years end!

I remember there was a Virtual PC for PowerPC Macs, but it was horrible as one would expect.

We'll probably be going back to that life, but hopefully it will a bit better if the Apple chips are that much of an improvement. Serious gaming is probably dead though.

 

[Cayenne1]

The Corporate world is Wintel apps. Macs have made inroads into that world over the resistance of many IT departments by having the ability to run Wintel apps. Apple's ARM decision has basically discounted those inroads.

Note that I am not referencing OTB (out of the box) Wintel apps such as Office, Photoshop, etc. There are thosands of Wintel apps that have been custom developed to run business critical functions in Finance, Medical, Laboratories, Utilities, Manufacturing, etc., etc. Intel based Macs have allowed the employees of those industries to service those functions in their office and at home in most cases.

I don't feel the exclusion of this customer base is trivial. It will a have a more negative impact than anticipated.

 

[1146331]

It doesn't matter anyway since nobody here using Macs actually uses Macs for work.

Gone are the days you could do anything productive on a Mac.

Apple is dead set at ensuring they have no professional users.

Art isn't productive. Nor is Youtube.

 

[Rigby]

In directly about ARM.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1275483550985318400

That tweet also says that the VMs will be ARM only. I have no doubt that they will make an ARM version of VMWare Fusion, but it won't be able to run x86 VMs.

 

[ebika]

It means the multi-arch image support on Docker Hub is going to be a lot more valuable. Going back to Linux isn't going to help you if you want to do it on a MacBook of the future, but maybe you meant just dumping Apple all together.

I honestly don't think this will be too bad though. Worst case, an x86 VM could be emulated for the case of running x86 Docker images. Emulating a headless system only for Docker should be easier than a whole graphical system in terms of usability and compatibility.

Yeah, I meant dumping Apple for the laptop hardware. I hope it's not too bad. Someone else said it may mean we need to use ARM-linux images for containers. I don't know offhand the implications for a dev pipeline to let's say AWS with those images. Maybe it's a non-issue, but I haven't had to really explore that yet.

 

[pldelisle]

It doesn't matter anyway since nobody here using Macs actually uses Macs for work.

Gone are the days you could do anything productive on a Mac.

Apple is dead set at ensuring they have no professional users.

Art isn't productive. Nor is Youtube.

LOL.

Stop writing stupidities. If there is an OS that is productive, it’s macOS more than anything else. Especially for software development.

Parallels and vMWare will come out with native ARM64 virtualization of ARM64 guest OS.
Planet will recognize Intel and x86 must be dumped and will start shifting to ARM64.

Apple has ofter been the first to change paradigm. Drop legacy ports, drop audio jack in favor of wireless, and countless of other things. Now they want to drop legacy x86 support in favor of their own people are complaining 🤦‍♂️

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

Judging from this thread, this demographic thinks they’re much bigger than they really are.

They may not be big, but these power-users/IT-guys/engineers/teachers are usually influential to the computing habits of other people. I have a lot of people turning to me and ask me what they should consider buying for themselves, their kids going to university and such...
There was a time when I wholeheartedly recommended them to buy a Mac. These times are over and now I am myself contemplating to switch away from Apple. This will surely have an impact beyond just my own spending habits...

 

[mguzzi]

This maybe a dumb question but what is Windows 10, version 1909 (updated April 2020) ARM64 English will this run on the New MacBooks?

 

[pldelisle]

This maybe a dumb question but what is Windows 10, version 1909 (updated April 2020) ARM64 English will this run on the New MacBooks?

Too early to tell, but I doubt.

 

[DaveWil]

Parallels and vMWare will come out with native ARM64 virtualization of ARM64 guest OS.

Even if they do it will be a subpar experience performance wise unless these new chips are many times faster than the current Intel processors. A lot of professions will have to move away from Apple because of job requirements.
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I assume Linux has some good VM software to run windows under. That may be the direction to go. (Not running under OS 11)

 

[dbeattie]

As a developer I use Docker on my Macbook to accomplish so many things. Probably the software package I use the most. I'm assuming that goes away with ARM adoption.

 

[spinboy]

Umm....

If only they weren’t stopping all Intel Mac production immediately. Then those who might actually be impacted would have time to plan their computer refresh and buy one of the last Intel Macs. Heck, maybe even one that hasn’t even been released yet and was in their, oh what’s it called, pipeline? That would be awesome. Then you’d have probably 3 years or so from then for the software to mature before needing to worry if it would run your cruddy Windows app. Of course that is if Parallels is even thinking about that now, but they probably aren’t. Bummer.

 

[duffman9000]

It doesn't matter anyway since nobody here using Macs actually uses Macs for work.

Gone are the days you could do anything productive on a Mac.

Apple is dead set at ensuring they have no professional users.

Art isn't productive. Nor is Youtube.

Apple caters to a specific audience and the writing has been on the wall for years. Look at how long professionals had to wait for a Mac Pro... and they got a trashcan.

 

[smulji]

" In a statement to The Verge, a Microsoft spokesperson explained that the company currently only licenses Windows 10 for ARM to manufacturers to pre-install on their hardware. Windows 10 for ARM is not available for anyone to license and install elsewhere, unlike Windows for other technologies. "

Microsoft vague on the future of Windows virtualization on Mac following Apple Silicon transition - 9to5Mac

At WWDC this week, Apple detailed its roadmap to transition the Mac lineup from Intel processors to Apple Silicon chips....

9to5mac.com

 

[pldelisle]

Even if they do it will be a subpar experience performance wise unless these new chips are many times faster than the current Intel processors. A lot of professions will have to move away from Apple because of job requirements.
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I assume Linux has some good VM software to run windows under. That may be the direction to go. (Not running under OS 11)

No. Virtualize ARM64 guest is easy to do. Apple demoed it. [automerge]1593033031[/automerge]

As a developer I use Docker on my Macbook to accomplish so many things. Probably the software package I use the most. I'm assuming that goes away with ARM adoption.

No. Apple is working with Docker. See the State of the union keynote.

 

[MacBH928]

Parallels commits suicide

Ouch. Then again Apple has the telemetry and knows how few of us actually use Windows VMs and/or Bootcamp. We are a small bunch of vocal individuals, but the actual percentage of us in the community has to be quite low. And I'm not quitting MacOS over this. I have a cheapo Windows Laptop that will do just fine for the 3-4 time a year that I need to run Windows.

I beg to differ, I think Apple got cocky. There are two companies that release and updates yearly a product specifically for people who virtualize other OSs on the Mac and that is Parallels and VMware fusion. This only shows that the market is there. Not to mention that once Macs were able to run Windows alongside MacOS its popularity soared and was implemented a lot more in the work place. Now people who take a mac to the office will not be able to run the software required by their firm hence opting for a Windows laptop option.

How will this affect macs in the future I don't know. Maybe Apple knows Microsoft will jump on the ARM bandwagon, maybe the Mac will just turn into a giant iPad.

 

[docbop]

Apple shooting itself in the foot at this point they keep talking Pro machines and app's but this move show they just want to selling stuff for non professional use. Parallels and similar work because the CPU's are the same and they are only doing an emulation between the OS libraries. Emulating a CPU and an OS layer is not going to be easy and performance will take a hit

That's get even getting to area of the pro applications like Logic and Finalcut and the 3rd party DAW and video app's. Porting to a new CPU is going to be a slow process. So question is do I buy my last Intel Apple now and make it last as long as possible or go ahead and start migration over to Windows for music work and Linux for everything else.

 

[smulji]

So question is do I buy my last Intel Apple now and make it last as long as possible

Yes. And by the time you're ready to upgrade again the transition will be far enough along that you'll have a much better idea on the state of Macs with Apple Silicon.

 

[ADudeInBoston]

Aren't there on-demand Azure subscriptions available for like a few dollars a month for really basic machine configurations that include a Windows license if you only run it for a few hours when needed and power it down when you're finished?

Came here to say something similar but regarding Amazon (AWS) Workspaces. I’m experimenting now with moving my development environment from a locally hosted VMware Fusion VM, to an Amazon Workspace, and so far so good. It won’t solve everyone’s use-case, but for those “I need to run a Windows app every once in awhile” , it should fit. A few bucks a month, and Amazon worries about all the patching and maintenance. Scale it up or down at will. And it’s accessible from anywhere you happen to be. I’d imagine the Azure solution would work just as well; I’m just not personally familiar with it.

 

[Altherekho]

USB4 will replace TB3, and it’s completely backward compatible with TB3 as well as non-proprietary.

Except that Egpu will be simply useless on Arm without Windows10, BigSur games accellerating Mac games with egpu.. .. Tiger Lake if any will be the last REAL MAC . I think they made a too big leap , lots of industries use windows 10 and won’t follow Apple , as many i think i bought my last Mac. They better permit X86 on virtualization or Parallels.Then for gaming , Xbox or Psp .. , i’m a little bit upset but Cook decided to do the opposite of Jobs , he wanted windows on Mac , this is an absurd backpedal with new faster tech..but that is not what sells , look at Nintendo they have killer appz , Apple just Final Cut and Logic.. .