Rosetta Won't Support x86 Virtualization Apps Running Windows

[cardfan]

Except that Egpu will be simply useless on Arm without Windows10, BigSur games accellerating Mac games with egpu.. .. Tiger Lake if any will be the last REAL MAC . I think they made a too big leap , lots of industries use windows 10 and won’t follow Apple , as many i think i bought my last Mac. They better permit X86 on virtualization or Parallels.Then for gaming , Xbox or Psp .. , i’m a little bit upset but Cook decided to do the opposite of Jobs , he wanted windows on Mac , this is an absurd backpedal with new faster tech..but that is not what sells , look at Nintendo they have killer appz , Apple just Final Cut and Logic.. .

Beginning of end for Apple in the desktop/laptop space. No one will want to develop for a dead platform and be subject to App Store rules like on iOS. Although Apple is getting attacked and rightly so on their antitrust behavior.

Good thing they’re still doing intel macs because Apple silicon won’t go anywhere.

Once again the lack of any must have services or software doesn’t bode well for Apple. This is why being able to accommodate windows and other third party services should be vital to them. The macOS / hardware integration is great but ends there because off the bat Apple has very little of their own to offer that most users find compelling or essential in macOS.

 

[Gerdi]

Even if Microsoft as already a Windows version for arm, i would guess the snapdragons architecture is nothing like Apple's A chips even if both are arm.

Windows Machines are ARMv8.2A, A14 will be at least ARM8.6A - it is fully compatible to ARMv8.2A.
Of course drivers for other HW than CPU needs to be provided by Apple (like GPU and sound driver)
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I jumped onto Google as I was posting in this thread and thinking about the problem space, and I promptly found QEMU. Hadn't heard of it before, but it satisfied my curiosity as to what was out there already today in the way of potential x64 on ARM solutions.

I suspect we are going to see a large uptick in interest in such products. It would be very interesting to see benchmarks of QEMU running x64 on a Surface Pro X for example. Or, perhaps even more germane here, running on the ARM Mac Mini Apple is about to starting shipping out (but it might violate license agreement to do so).

QEMU is an order of magnitude slower than Microsofts Intel emulation.

 

[BlandUsername]

Yep, Boot Camp is dead. They are going to lose A LOT of customers.

Absolutely. Wine wrappers are already tenuous at best. No boot camp going forward is a show stopper for me.

 

[cocoua]

not further problem than the 2 years of Binary 2 apps, catalyst mess ETC.

windows will run ARM, or Apple won’t success at Apple Silicon

Who in the Earth thinks Appleis gonna change CPU and be ahead competitors but Microsoft don’t?

do you think this Apple silicon move is comparable to Motorola stupid CPUs?

Seriously, no computer in 5 years ahead will be sold with Intel inside.

massive consumer computing is mobile, is ARM, so computers would use ARM, also even this probe to be inferior (I dont think so)

mobile/tablet market weight is getting so big, in some years it wont be possible to compite with it, consumer PCs need to adapt, last try to survive

 

[Gerdi]

It will probably run the ARM Windows version, but problem is, software support on ARM Windows is terrible. So Windows on ARM is barely useless.

Yeah sure terrible...aside that you run much more apps on ARM Windows than in the whole MacOS ecosystem. How terrible must MacOS then be?

 

[cocoua]

Even in the Intel era, it was already a tough world for Mac users hoping beyond hope that game developers would make Mac versions of their games.... Now I bet we can kiss goodbye to gaming on Mac forever.

Well, this would be true for a while, but think it feom Apple’s POV, they are seelling more games than any other platform, and ARM if prove to be superior for Apple, would be superior for Microsoft, so developers will go ARM.
Android phones are also getting very powerful, and able to run AAA games in 4K in an external display is a matter of months.

 

[anshuvorty]

Came here to say something similar but regarding Amazon (AWS) Workspaces. I’m experimenting now with moving my development environment from a locally hosted VMware Fusion VM, to an Amazon Workspace, and so far so good. It won’t solve everyone’s use-case, but for those “I need to run a Windows app every once in awhile” , it should fit. A few bucks a month, and Amazon worries about all the patching and maintenance. Scale it up or down at will. And it’s accessible from anywhere you happen to be. I’d imagine the Azure solution would work just as well; I’m just not personally familiar with it.

I just don’t want Amazon/Microsoft monitoring or touching my VMs and the confidential data in them.

 

[Altherekho]

USB4 will replace TB3, and it’s completely backward compatible with TB3 as well as non-proprietary.

Egpu was for having mostly gaming on bootcamp-windows10 , if windows 10 is gone thrn there is anymore needings for egpu for Mac as well the thunderbolt , it will be the end of an era.Cooks hopes to sell as many macs as iPhone, it simply won’t happen and one day a new Ceo will bring back Apple to x86.This without x86 windows on Arm Macs.Then there is the chance to have windows 10 on the cloud as well as gaming as with Stadia but to be honest i don’t like a machine which is a gate for all the fees i have to pay monthly.Wallets are not future proof infinite wells.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Well, I suppose I’ll buy an XPS or a Thinkpad X1 Extreme when my MBP 16 comes out of service.

That sucks. But there’s just no way any of the apps I need are going to be rewritten for ARM, most of them don’t even exist for MacOS, but I get by with Bootcamp or VMWare Fusion.

I know a lot of other fellow engineers of various types will feel my pain here.

I don't think many people read the article correctly. It said things like VMWare won't run on Rosetta. It's didn't say that VMWare won't be able to rewrite/recompile to natively run on ARM.
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I'd imagine that for 98% of users this isn't a problem but for 2% this presents a major dealbreaker. They will probably lose certain pro customers, but gain others if they are able to provide better or cheaper Macs. I think in the end it will be a net win but curious how it will effect large F500 deployments at places like IBM.

I laughed at "cheaper Macs"

 

[sirozha]

Beginning of end for Apple in the desktop/laptop space. No one will want to develop for a dead platform and be subject to App Store rules like on iOS. Although Apple is getting attacked and rightly so on their antitrust behavior.

Good thing they’re still doing intel macs because Apple silicon won’t go anywhere.

Once again the lack of any must have services or software doesn’t bode well for Apple. This is why being able to accommodate windows and other third party services should be vital to them. The macOS / hardware integration is great but ends there because off the bat Apple has very little of their own to offer that most users find compelling or essential in macOS.

One thing to keep in mind. Macs are now a small fraction of the Apple's bottom line. They don't care if they lose 20% of Mac customers because of this transition.

 

[SocialKonstruct]

No. Virtualize ARM64 guest is easy to do. Apple demoed it. [automerge]1593033031[/automerge]

No. Apple is working with Docker. See the State of the union keynote.

I wouldn't go by an Apple Demo. I will believe it when I get to do it myself.
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Apple shooting itself in the foot at this point they keep talking Pro machines and app's but this move show they just want to selling stuff for non professional use. Parallels and similar work because the CPU's are the same and they are only doing an emulation between the OS libraries. Emulating a CPU and an OS layer is not going to be easy and performance will take a hit

That's get even getting to area of the pro applications like Logic and Finalcut and the 3rd party DAW and video app's. Porting to a new CPU is going to be a slow process. So question is do I buy my last Intel Apple now and make it last as long as possible or go ahead and start migration over to Windows for music work and Linux for everything else.

I would migrate immediately. This week I just switched ny workstation to my Surface Book 2.

 

[smulji]

One thing to keep in mind. Macs are now a small fraction of the Apple's bottom line. They don't care if they lose 20% of Mac customers because of this transition.

Macs are a $20 billion a year business for Apple. That's not chump change. And a lot of the biggest influencers (ie: creative professionals) use Macs. It's still an important and lucrative market.

 

[makman]

As a developer I use Docker on my Macbook to accomplish so many things. Probably the software package I use the most. I'm assuming that goes away with ARM adoption.

No, Docker will be available on Apple Silicon - in fact it was specifically mentioned at the keynote. It's important to note though that the containers you will be able to pull will need to be built specifically for ARM by the container publisher.

 

[LogicalApex]

Macs are a $20 billion a year business for Apple. That's not chump change. And a lot of the biggest influencers (ie: creative professionals) use Macs. It's still an important and lucrative market.

Yep... And as Desktop computing continues to become a niche platform used by professionals and consumers needs being met fully by either iPhone or iPad it makes this all the more confusing of a decision by them (to make the Mac basically a larger iPad).

Apple had lost a lot of professionals with previous transitions that left them on the lurch feeling abandoned. Apple has managed to gain a domain foothold among developers and just as MS is finally trying to win developers back with stuff such as WSL Apple throws developers off a cliff.

 

[jkozlow3]

Came here to say something similar but regarding Amazon (AWS) Workspaces. I’m experimenting now with moving my development environment from a locally hosted VMware Fusion VM, to an Amazon Workspace, and so far so good. It won’t solve everyone’s use-case, but for those “I need to run a Windows app every once in awhile” , it should fit. A few bucks a month, and Amazon worries about all the patching and maintenance. Scale it up or down at will. And it’s accessible from anywhere you happen to be. I’d imagine the Azure solution would work just as well; I’m just not personally familiar with it.

Nice! I'm not personally familiar with either of them at a personal/individual user level. I know my company uses a lot of Azure servers and spins them up and down to save on cost when they don't need to be in use. How much does the AWS Workspace solution cost to run a "basic" Windows VM (nothing powerful)? Any links you can provide would be appreciated! Thanks!

 

[makman]

No doubt Apple will try and forge an all-ARM future but I wouldn't be surprised if they are prototyping an x86 coprocessor (which could still be considered Apple Silicon if they do it as an AMD semi-custom) just in case.

 

[pldelisle]

Yeah sure terrible...aside that you run much more apps on ARM Windows than in the whole MacOS ecosystem. How terrible must MacOS then be?

??????

I’ve never been limited by macOS.
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I wouldn't go by an Apple Demo. I will believe it when I get to do it myself.
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I would migrate immediately. This week I just switched ny workstation to my Surface Book 2.

You call a Surface Book a « workstation » 😂

 

[Gerdi]

??????
I’ve never been limited by macOS.

This was just in response to someone claiming, that there are no apps for Windows ARM and is therfore "terrible" - which i found ridiculous. Personally i've never been limited by either MacOS nor Windows ARM. Sure there were very few cases, where i would have liked to have a particular x64 app running.
And then you have all the native ARM64 Linux apps available under under Windows ARM via WSL2 like Blender, GIMP, Libre Office, Chromium etc.

 

[mguzzi]

" In a statement to The Verge, a Microsoft spokesperson explained that the company currently only licenses Windows 10 for ARM to manufacturers to pre-install on their hardware. Windows 10 for ARM is not available for anyone to license and install elsewhere, unlike Windows for other technologies. "

Microsoft vague on the future of Windows virtualization on Mac following Apple Silicon transition - 9to5Mac

At WWDC this week, Apple detailed its roadmap to transition the Mac lineup from Intel processors to Apple Silicon chips....

9to5mac.com

Not true as a Microsoft customer I can download windows for arm from the Microsoft Volume licensing center

 

[smulji]

Not true as a Microsoft customer I can download windows for arm from the Microsoft Volume licensing center

 

[SocialKonstruct]

Egpu was for having mostly gaming on bootcamp-windows10 , if windows 10 is gone thrn there is anymore needings for egpu for Mac as well the thunderbolt , it will be the end of an era.Cooks hopes to sell as many macs as iPhone, it simply won’t happen and one day a new Ceo will bring back Apple to x86.This without x86 windows on Arm Macs.Then there is the chance to have windows 10 on the cloud as well as gaming as with Stadia but to be honest i don’t like a machine which is a gate for all the fees i have to pay monthly.Wallets are not future proof infinite wells.

EGPUs are used also for 8k video editing too not just gaming

 

[Aldaris]

Hmm. No windows= no Revit= no buy for many Architects I know. A lot of us like to run Revit on Imacs because the hardware looks so much better than windows PC boxes.

This is the one great unknown right now-no Revit (and I’m not going to pay for fra.me’s sub par web experience)-no need to get a pro Mac machine in my user case.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

USB4 will replace TB3, and it’s completely backward compatible with TB3 as well as non-proprietary.

No it will not. USB 4.0 does not have direct PCI-E bus support which is critical with TB3 and low latency hardware.

 

[Mr.Brossard]

That's a deal-killer, for me. Have to have my VMs.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

No doubt Apple will try and forge an all-ARM future but I wouldn't be surprised if they are prototyping an x86 coprocessor (which could still be considered Apple Silicon if they do it as an AMD semi-custom) just in case.

x86 coprocessor would require a license from AMD and Intel.