Rosetta Won't Support x86 Virtualization Apps Running Windows

[BeatCrazy]

Apple have made it clear for quite a while now they they view kexts as problematic and would be removing support post Catalina.

I get it, not complaining. Just trying to understand if this particular use of 'extensions' means the same thing.

I proactively got rid of all my accessories that used 'Legacy System Extensions', which was basically about 4-5 USB-A/C to Ethernet adapters.

 

[smulji]

There's very little pure desktop app development going on anymore

Very true.

 

[damphoose]

This is really surprising? Doing it this way would have been two layers of translation. I can't imagine that being the optimal way to go. What Parallels (or anyone) needs is a native ARM application that emulates x86. That must already be a thing in theory right?

 

[flur]

I wonder how many people are still booting into Windows on a Mac? We were pretty regularly 2 years ago. But it's almost odd how it doesn't seem to matter anymore.

I don’t boot into Windows but I do use Windows in a VM regularly. I do business intelligence work and some of the software I use is Windows only. I guess I need to decide if I’m going to upgrade my 2015 machine to a new Intel Mac or cross my fingers and pray that solutions come to the ARM machines.

 

[randyj]

I wonder if Intel are worried.
This may force Microsoft to build proper versions ARM based versions of Windows.
Then Intel could fade away unless they produce Arm processors as well.

There are plenty of other alternatives for running Windows in the cloud.
I have a free tier Windows 10 workspace running on AWS that I fire up when needed.
It already has a client for iOS, so would be supported on Arm machines.

 

[chrfr]

This really the surprising. Doing it this way would have been two layers of translation. I can't imagine that being the optimal way to go. What Parallels (or anyone) needs is a native ARM application that emulates x86. That must already be a thing in theory right?

In theory it’s a thing but what makes virtualization so useful is that it’s so fast. A new version of what was once known as Virtual PC is unlikely to perform well, nor be as compatible as a virtualized environment.

 

[Rigby]

I use VMware Fusion on a MBP for not just Linux-based development but also to run server apps like MySQL for testing and QA. With that virtualization, I can get more throughput than I can on our production servers (faster but fewer cores on MBP). But with the emulation that'd be required (for VMware or Parallels) with the new ARM (RISC) Macs, performance would degrade substantially. And that will be a problem. I would need to retain at least one Intel Mac for the foreseeable future.

Running existing server applications natively on ARM (in a Linux/ARM VM) shouldn't be such a big deal. But developing and testing applications, VMs or containers for x86 target platforms would be, to quote Jobs, a bag of hurt on an ARM machine. Even if there was an emulator with usable performance, there will invariably be problems with the emulation layer, and you don't want to waste your time dealing with those rather than debugging your own software.

 

[Realityck]

I think everyone here is a bit overreacting 🤪
Apple said Rosetta won’t run X86 OS into a virtualization software.

But if Parallels and VMware finds a way to run « natively » within their engine x86 OSes, all these fears will vanish.

Do you remember virtualPC when powerPCs were Apple power Macs, it was slow and not native. You can’t run a software emulation and consider it running software natively.

 

[KPOM]

You can compromise is basically your argument but plenty of developers will shrug and move to Linux or Windows+WSL. iOS grew because generic developers who had Macs thought they'd give it a go. The barrier to entry was downloading xcode. Not any more.

I doubt it. Intel makes less than half its revenue from x86 now. The barrier to coding for iOS is a $999 MacBook Air. That’s still true when it shifts to ARM. That’s a low barrier to entry.

 

[Shirasaki]

Even in the Intel era, it was already a tough world for Mac users hoping beyond hope that game developers would make Mac versions of their games.... Now I bet we can kiss goodbye to gaming on Mac forever.

But in turn, you will play iPad games on Mac natively! /s.

 

[KPOM]

Running existing server applications natively on ARM (in a Linux/ARM VM) shouldn't be such a big deal. But developing and testing applications, VMs or containers for x86 target platforms would be, to quote Jobs, a bag of hurt on an ARM machine. Even if there was an emulator with usable performance, there will invariably be problems with the emulation layer, and you don't want to waste your time dealing with those rather than debugging your own software.

Are you claiming that Steve Jobs would never have abandoned Intel? Just as he never would have abandoned legacy ports on Macs?

 

[Shirasaki]

Yep, Boot Camp is dead. They are going to lose A LOT of customers.

I feel it won’t be too many.
There are also folks using separate Windows machine for their Windows applications. They don’t care whether Apple support Windows or not.

 

[KPOM]

But in turn, you will play iPad games on Mac natively! /s.

You laugh, but now anyone coding for iOS can write for Mac with few limitations.

 

[Rigby]

Are you claiming that Steve Jobs would never have abandoned Intel? Just as he never would have abandoned legacy ports on Macs?

Huh?

 

[KPOM]

I feel it won’t be too many.
There are also folks using separate Windows machine for their Windows applications. They don’t care whether Apple support Windows or not.

They won’t lose many at all. To the contrary, they’ll still need a Mac of some sort to write for iOS.
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Huh?

You seem to be saying Apple is doomed to fail because they left Intel.

 

[cuestakid]

I am confused. If I read this right all this means is that you cannot run x86/32 bit versions of windows as a cam but you can run 64 bit x64 versions. I know people need it for testing but if the next release of windows is 64 bit only where is the harm?

 

[NapoleonIV]

Looks like there is a market for virtualisation software for ARM macOS! They may not be ready by autumn, but people need to stop assuming that Parallels are VM Ware won’t be available for ARM macOS in the long run.

 

[Mr. Dee]

If you think a truckload of those A12Z DTKs are not at Microsoft in Redmond, you are sadly mistaken. I can guarantee that a year from now, you will have native Windows 10 running on Apple silicon along with Office 365. But, I don't know about other applications beyond Microsoft's own. But hopefully it will happen.

 

[dwhittington]

Cant remember the last time I booted to a windows VM. Of course, we expect these vendors to update their code to support the latest hardware and software as they have gotten accustomed to charging us for such updates over the years.

ESXi for all my pro stuff. Going back to sleep now.

 

[Idec50]

Man, I really hope Parallels finds a solution.

I have a couple applications I have to use for work in Windows so I must have Windows. So I will have to switch to Windows completely for work. I have gotten so used to phone integration with macOS, so I will likely switch to Android for this in Windows. Then it won't be worth using an iPad either because it's not integrated.

This has the potential of completely breaking me off the entire platform. I don't understand people who use iPhone with Windows. I could set up a remote desktop Windows workstation, but I really need it be fast, portable, use local data, and work without internet. Well, I'm not sure if portable is necessary ...

I think my use case is niche, but is it really that niche for software developers? I.e. the people you are trying to convince to build for your platform? I could change my mind but this screams -> "Cutting off the nose to spite the face".

 

[SocialKonstruct]

Microsoft already has an ARM version of Windows 10. It's used on the Surface Pro X. It sucks. Very little apps available for it. You can't run x86_64 apps on ARM based Windows.

Worst OS ever apart from that miserable Windows Mobile crap I dealt with before.

 

[deconstruct60]

Notice they are being very cagey and not answering very direct questions of "will I be able to run virtual Windows"

That is not 'cagey' . That looks like a 'bot' posting the same canned message in some "make money fast" scheme. Every question with the same answer isn't 'cagey'. More likely means no info at all. A later question asks if Parallels will virtualize an x86 OS leveraging Rosetta in some way. The answer to that is no ( Apple's docs say as much. Rosetta "2" doesn't do virtualization at all. Or kernel extensions. Don't have those in "emulation x86" not sure how doing virtualization; no instruction to invoke and no way of getting to the kernel level. ) .

I don't think Parallel on Apple Silicon is a scam but there is about zero information there that present know anything at all about what the questions are about.

 

[Rigby]

I am confused. If I read this right all this means is that you cannot run x86/32 bit versions of windows as a cam but you can run 64 bit x64 versions. I know people need it for testing but if the next release of windows is 64 bit only where is the harm?

I think what you are referring to is the ARM version of Windows. ARM Windows itself and some of the stock applications such as the Edge browser actually are native 64-bit ARM binaries. This could probably be adapted to run in a VM on future ARM Macs. The problem is that there is very little Windows software that runs natively on ARM. So Microsoft added an emulation layer that can run x86 (32 bit) Windows software, but not amd64 (64-bit) software. Since most modern Windows software is 64-bit these days, this limits the software that works substantially. The emulation is also very slow and has some compatibility issues that causes glitches in many applications.

 

[Kyanar]

I wonder if Intel are worried.
This may force Microsoft to build proper versions ARM based versions of Windows.
Then Intel could fade away unless they produce Arm processors as well.

Intel already produces several ARM Cortex-based processors.

If you think a truckload of those A12Z DTKs are not at Microsoft in Redmond, you are sadly mistaken. I can guarantee that a year from now, you will have native Windows 10 running on Apple silicon along with Office 365. But, I don't know about other applications beyond Microsoft's own. But hopefully it will happen.

For sure. One of the biggest Mac developers in the world is the Microsoft MBU (Mac Business Unit). The two companies are on friendlier terms than a lot of people think.

 

[MichaelDT]

Apple have made it clear for quite a while now they they view kexts as problematic and would be removing support post Catalina.

Yea, except then they made the Mac Pro with PCI lanes. Direct hardware access in the protected kernel space is needed for most cards. That’s not going to change, micro kernel design tried to change it and it failed that’s why hybrid kernels with drivers running in kernel space exist (Like XNU). User mode code blows.