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I only skimmed through several pages of comments here, so apologize in advance if I missed it. But seems like most of this discussion is debating pros and cons of the new ARM based Macs losing capability to boot and run Windows.

As a Mac user going back to the mid 1990's? I'd say it's safe to bet that someone will tackle making Windows work in emulation on an ARM Mac. They did it with VirtualPC on the old PPC processors, and that was just as difficult to pull off. But it's likely not to run very quickly or efficiently. Most likely unsuitable for any gaming beyond casual 2D stuff.

The *big* takeaway here is that Apple is finally deciding to break down some of the barriers that always kept iOS devices separate from Macs. Moving forward, your new Macbook is essentially an "iPad Pro Plus". While games written native to run in OS X are few and far between, there are plenty for iOS which would look and run great on a big monitor and ARM based Mac. A lot of other iOS apps could be slightly re-written to make Mac versions that work better with keyboards and mouse pointers -- meaning voila! The Mac has a software library about as big as Windows does in short order.

And honestly, I used to strongly dislike this idea and hoped Apple wasn't ever headed that direction. But as the iPads have gotten more powerful and blurred the lines between them and computers? It starts to make a lot more sense. I think this means you really do need to buy a Windows PC if it's Windows software you need to use regularly. But all the "anti-Windows" people who prefer to use anything else, anyplace and any time they can? They'll now have a more viable alternative with a Mac that's an extension of the whole iOS world.


I disagree. This isn’t change for the sake of change. Apple didn’t adopt an existing platform for iPhone or iPad. They created a market way bigger than Mac and more valuable than Intel. If you want to code for iPhone or iPad you will buy a Mac. Why not make the Mac fully integrated with your best selling devices?
 
As for the rest of the developers out there, what's the argument? You can't write your node.js code the same way on an ARM-based PC? If you're a hardcore C user, you can't cross-compile using Clang? If you're a Docker user, you can't simply point your Docker client to a cloud VM to get your x86 build? (Or even cross-compile locally the same way a C user would?)
You can compromise is basically your argument but plenty of developers will shrug and move to Linux or Windows+WSL. iOS grew because generic developers who had Macs thought they'd give it a go. The barrier to entry was downloading xcode. Not any more.
 
80% of all computer users, PC and Mac, basically run a web browser, and Microsoft Office. Even popular desktop apps, including parts of Office, are pseudo-web browsers (Electron).

Microsoft is even moving software development to webapps (Azure DevOps/VS Code), and because of that they even support Mac and Android in the same environment they build Windows.

There's very little pure desktop app development going on anymore. That's something that has fundamentally changed in the last 10 years.

I think the point is there are use cases where the Mac was a very good developer machine because it had flexibility to work with different environments. The fact that you could do both Mac, Linux, and Windows development can only be a positive. When you remove one, it makes the ecosystem less flexible.

But that's not the Mac's developer bread-and-butter, it's iOS/iPad OS development.

I disagree with this. In my last 3 jobs, we've always had way more non-iOS development going on. At my current work, we have probably about 15 iOS developers out of a 200 front end developers (including native/rust/c++ stack, JS stack, UWP, Roku, Trilithium, etc). For back end, we have many more developers doing Java/Go/Node/Rust on Apple laptops.
 
Now all that Microsoft needs to do is create Windows for ARM that doesn't suck.

No chance. Apple can only get way with it because of the small market they have.. Windows businesses would freak out .... It would be like Dooms-day is here. Pretty much most businesses noways run VM's ..
 
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Notice they are being very cagey and not answering very direct questions of "will I be able to run virtual Windows"

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Because they're probably still evaluating. Until they know for absolute sure that they can do this they've possibly been informed by owners KKR & Co (a large investment company) to stay schtum.

Makes total sense: under promise and over deliver.
 
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The good ol' generic developer. It's true there's a lot of the industry that shifted to Macs as it was a great place for a POSIX-compliant system to develop any sort of scripted language, or Java, or Go these days. But that's not the Mac's developer bread-and-butter, it's iOS/iPad OS development. The architecture shift makes no difference at all to them. And now that the frameworks for mobile and Mac are basically synonymous, as long as they have them, they have macOS app developers. The platform will be just fine.

I really don't see why anyone would think Apple wants or needs to keep non-Apple platform developers around on their platform, but it's largely irrelevant. The only thing we're quibbling about is a processor architecture that is largely obfuscated for most people, even developers! That "just recompile your app" vibe being thrown around the keynote isn't just lip service. For 95% of the apps out there, it doesn't matter what the compiler does with your high-level Swift/Obj C code. That's also the whole point behind the multitude of Apple's heavy lifting frameworks like Metal or CoreML. They'll do the dirty work of processor integration, you just use those high-level APIs. They're going above and beyond to ensure the developers that actually do further their platform have a smooth transition.

As for the rest of the developers out there, what's the argument? You can't write your node.js code the same way on an ARM-based PC? If you're a hardcore C user, you can't cross-compile using Clang? If you're a Docker user, you can't simply point your Docker client to a cloud VM to get your x86 build? (Or even cross-compile locally the same way a C user would?)

It has happened before, we survived. In a decade, I can guarantee you, we'll barely remember these days.
I do machine learning and I’m on Mac. But I’ve barely never done any Swift or IOS app programming.

Don’t forget that macOS is, for most devs, a way, a method, to work. As a dev, I largely prefer to work on MacOS than any other OS. But I don’t code in Xcode. There is a vast majority of devs that does the same as me. You are not simply on macOS because you code for the Apple environment.
 
I feel another Dejavu coming on. Most developers took time to transition "away" from Rosetta... Many thought they wouldn't have to do that again...

Well.....
 
No chance. Apple can only get way with it because of the small market they have.. Windows businesses would freak out .... It would be like Dooms-day is here. Pretty much most businesses noways run VM's ..
You are pin point on this. Wayyyy easier for Apple to make the move than the entire bulky software industry on Windows that still rely on Windows feature developed in the previous century.
 
I use VMware Fusion on a MBP for not just Linux-based development but also to run server apps like MySQL for testing and QA. With that virtualization, I can get more throughput than I can on our production servers (faster but fewer cores on MBP). But with the emulation that'd be required (for VMware or Parallels) with the new ARM (RISC) Macs, performance would degrade substantially. And that will be a problem. I would need to retain at least one Intel Mac for the foreseeable future.
 
I think the point is there are use cases where the Mac was a very good developer machine because it had flexibility to work with different environments. The fact that you could do both Mac, Linux, and Windows development can only be a positive. When you remove one, it makes the ecosystem less flexible.
True.
I previously did web dev. Nice to have all three platform to test your end user UI for example.
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I use VMware Fusion on a MBP for not just Linux-based development but also to run server apps like MySQL for testing and QA. With that virtualization, I can get more throughput than I can on our production servers (faster but fewer cores on MBP). But with the emulation that'd be required (for VMware or Parallels) with the new ARM (RISC) Macs, performance would degrade substantially. And that will be a problem. I would need to retain at least one Intel Mac for the foreseeable future.

Pretty sure these packages exists on Debian ARM or RedHat ARM. This won’t be a problem because Parallels/VMWare will be able to virtualize any ARM Linux without performance drop. You could also use Docker which is more practical for this use case.
 
I'd imagine that for 98% of users this isn't a problem but for 2% this presents a major dealbreaker. They will probably lose certain pro customers, but gain others if they are able to provide better or cheaper Macs. I think in the end it will be a net win but curious how it will effect large F500 deployments at places like IBM.

yeah, I am in that 2%.... there is a single app in windows that I must use and am doing so right now. Bootcamp has been my saviour for a long time. It’s probably best just to sit on this one for the next year and see how things pan out.
 
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I need (one a year) Turbo Tax for Business which is just offered for Windows. I currently run it inside VMWare. This is saying that the currently implemented technology won't allow this anymore? Perhaps VMWare will step up to the place, etc.

That would definitely suck for me.
 
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The *big* takeaway here is that Apple is finally deciding to break down some of the barriers that always kept iOS devices separate from Macs. Moving forward, your new Macbook is essentially an "iPad Pro Plus". While games written native to run in OS X are few and far between, there are plenty for iOS which would look and run great on a big monitor and ARM based Mac. A lot of other iOS apps could be slightly re-written to make Mac versions that work better with keyboards and mouse pointers -- meaning voila! The Mac has a software library about as big as Windows does in short order.

And honestly, I used to strongly dislike this idea and hoped Apple wasn't ever headed that direction. But as the iPads have gotten more powerful and blurred the lines between them and computers? It starts to make a lot more sense. I think this means you really do need to buy a Windows PC if it's Windows software you need to use regularly. But all the "anti-Windows" people who prefer to use anything else, anyplace and any time they can? They'll now have a more viable alternative with a Mac that's an extension of the whole iOS world.
Are there really? You think gamesters really love Apple Arcade or is it just a poor mans game console environment that is being severely outclassed by Sony and Microsofts brand new consoles. Oh wait you can play Bluray and 4K UHD Blue ray on those consoles. But Apple chooses to play this Samsung routine by trying to convince us of their ARM is uniquely special. I won't fight Apple taking the ARM from a iPadPro to a iPad derived laptop, but Apple solutions for the rest of us should be available for different types of customers. Not lets drive the car into the drink and then ride a bike from now on. :rolleyes:
 
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yeah, I am in that 2%.... there is a single app in windows that I must use and am doing so right now. Bootcamp has been my saviour for a long time. It’s probably best just to sit on this one for the next year and see how things pan out.

WINE (Wine is Not an Emulator) (seriously, that's what it stands for)...is only just NOW trying to figure out how to get 64-bit version for Catalina... Moving to ARM will stop them dead to that project.. :/
 
I think everyone here is a bit overreacting 🤪
Apple said Rosetta won’t run X86 OS into a virtualization software.

But if Parallels and VMware finds a way to run « natively » within their engine x86 OSes, all these fears will vanish.
 
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Ouch. Then again Apple has the telemetry and knows how few of us actually use Windows VMs and/or Bootcamp. We are a small bunch of vocal individuals, but the actual percentage of us in the community has to be quite low. And I'm not quitting MacOS over this. I have a cheapo Windows Laptop that will do just fine for the 3-4 time a year that I need to run Windows.

And you'll only have to wait 4 hours each time for Windows Update to finish running...:D
 
I disagree with this. In my last 3 jobs, we've always had way more non-iOS development going on. At my current work, we have probably about 15 iOS developers out of a 200 front end developers (including native/rust/c++ stack, JS stack, UWP, Roku, Trilithium, etc). For back end, we have many more developers doing Java/Go/Node/Rust on Apple laptops.

I meant it from a perspective that there's more developers coding for iOS/iPad on Mac than for the Mac itself. Again, having non-Apple platform software developers are and always has been a nice ancillary benefit for Apple but at the end of the day, they're just Mac users. Put this point aside, it doesn't matter. One can argue till blue in the face about how the Mac user base will change as a result of the transition.

Largely none of the development you mentioned is insurmountable on an arch other than x86 and most of those languages are either very well supported cross-platform. I think of this more of an implementation detail that can be worked around with less effort than organizations changing their whole workstation fleets complete with tooling and management. But we've got a pretty solid 2-5 years to see.
 
It is somewhat amazing to me how few Mac users truly understand virtualization as it relates to Intel and AMD processors. It is absolutely processor dependent and allows the VM to run in nearly real time - I have had VMs run faster than an equivalent PC because the drivers can be highly optimized to the virtual environment.

That said, I think Apple is counting on MS continuing to develop the ARM version of Windows. They are being careful to note that they will not support x86/64 versions.

They certainly seemed to imply that MS was working with them as they showed new versions of Office apps. I wonder how fleshed out these are compared to Windows versions, or are they ports of the iOS versions. I think Apple users overall are very important to MS‘s bottom line and they will want to make this work.

I need some heavy Win only apps (Revit, Bluebeam), but I also use dozens of Small apps needed for configuring all kinds of systems from control systems to programmers and tuners for autosports.

Whats strange is that over the years, virtualization on the Mac has gone backwards. Fusion and Parallels actually worked better back in 2009 or so than today. Now there are issues with that have crept up making it less reliable that it was early on. I now carry a Surface Laptop as a backup for doing lightweight stuff in the field. I still run the heavy stuff in Fusion on the16” as is is still much faster than the loaded Surface.
 
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I think it's safe to say there will be ways to run Windows
Until Apple confirms it, I don't think it's safe to say that at all.
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One can argue till blue in the face about how the Mac user base will change as a result of the transition.
It will change in the sense that it will become dominated more and more by users whose first and / or only Apple product is an iPhone. The ones who are worrying are traditional Mac users.
 
Isn’t Thunderbolt essentially a PCI-e bus on a cable with USB-C connectors? I could imagine a relatively small dongle sticking out the side of your MacBook or back of you iMac that has an Intel processor, to which Parallels would hand off processing of the Windows software code. Such a device would be similar to the PC Compatibility Card of old. It could be substantially less expensive, however. An Intel Compute Stick can be had for around $150.
 
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Does "Rosetta 2 not supporting kernel extensions" mean the same thing as this?


Apple have made it clear for quite a while now they they view kexts as problematic and would be removing support post Catalina.
 
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I agree generally. I think the Windows thing is such a minor part of the world unless you are totally meshed into the Windows world who cares anymore? Which platform are more apps created for each month now? iOS or Windows?
iOS and Android dominate developers' time and mindshare. Far more than developing for Mac or Windows.
 
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