Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Running dual 4870's in a 2009 Mac Pro

2002cbr600f4i said:
Unless you're trying to game on a 30" display in a First person shooter and you absolutely need 100+ FPS, I find it hard to believe that there's anything out there right now that a single 4870 can't handle in bootcamp/Windows.
Click to expand...

Wake up and smeel the CRYSIS !!! 2009 is here !!!

At Nowhere Near Maxed Out settings, it is running at 27 fps on a 4870...which means dipping into the teens on tough scenes. If I turned up the Eye Candy, the single 4870 might just hit single digits. Halo is no longer the current game, I'm afraid.
 
The Rominator said:
Wake up and smeel the CRYSIS !!! 2009 is here !!!

At Nowhere Near Maxed Out settings, it is running at 27 fps on a 4870...which means dipping into the teens on tough scenes. If I turned up the Eye Candy, the single 4870 might just hit single digits. Halo is no longer the current game, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

eh, just seems like a ton of hassle... If you bought a Mac pro to play games, you screwed yourself since you'll never get the latest/greatest video card for the Mac...

Believe me, I WISH it was different. I WISH Apple would support any PC graphics card... It would make things much better for us Pro users.

But honestly, if you want to game, and insist on playing the latest game at high res with the eye candy, you should have built a custom PC. You could have done so for a fraction of the cost of a Mac Pro...

I just don't see the point in investing this much time and energy into hacking to get a 3rd party card to work and hope that it'll work right, and then have limitation after limitation with said card (2nd video port not working, etc.)

Maybe we should be complaining more to apple to open up and give us more choices of video cards instead of going crazy trying to circumvent and hack our way around those limitations....
 
So crossfire is out with using the apple 4870? Would a mix of one apple card and one pc change that possibly?

Thats too bad, was going to pick up a 4870 to cross fire with in windows, now I may rethink getting two 4890s since they are easy to use. Just worried about future updates and bricking them.
 
kellen said:
So crossfire is out with using the apple 4870? Would a mix of one apple card and one pc change that possibly?

Thats too bad, was going to pick up a 4870 to cross fire with in windows, now I may rethink getting two 4890s since they are easy to use. Just worried about future updates and bricking them.
Click to expand...

The 4890s still need a workaround that has to be checked each time. You'd be better off getting two PC 4870s and flashing them. Should be as update-safe as can be.
 
Just thought I'd throw this out there.

The Mac Pro power supply is capable of 80A @ 12V, and 5A @ 5V. Exceeding these values will probably cause the output voltage to drop. The primary systems management controller monitors these voltages (for obvious reasons), and while I can't say for sure, the PSMC would probably shut down the system if the 12V or 5V rails become unstable.

Obviously, those are the max values for the /entire/ system. CPU, RAM, HDD's, and anything powered through the PCI-e slots plus the GPU power connectors.

Assuming the 4870's don't draw more power then the supply is capable of putting out, your only real issue is how much current the mainboard traces/connectors can handle. Judging by what I've seen, that shouldn't be much of a problem. I can't figure out what the 4870's draw (amperage), but as long as everything stays under 80A/12V 5A/5V, it should be fine.

-SC
 
That sounds like it's pushing it.

I guess if you only have a single HD and the lower speed Quad CPU's (dual socket daughterboard), then that wouldn't be an issue.

I'd hate to see what happens when you jam 2x 4870's in a system with 2x 2.93ghz CPU's, 16/32GB of RAM, 4x HD's, and a RAID card. Unless Apple is under-rating the PSU (and those values were straight from the service manual), I'm assuming that would probably overload at the slightest provocation of a reasonable system load and shut down.

Sounds risky to me.

Just out of curiosity... What do you guys need 2x4870's for? Someone said Crysis... Are people really buying Mac Pro's for Crysis these days? Or is this just some sort of "I have money and bootcamp and Crysis and want more FPS" deal?

-SC
 
ScottishCaptain said:
Just out of curiosity... What do you guys need 2x4870's for? Someone said Crysis... Are people really buying Mac Pro's for Crysis these days? Or is this just some sort of "I have money and bootcamp and Crysis and want more FPS" deal?

-SC
Click to expand...


To be honest, do you think that it is at any point wrong, or not possible, to like OSX, Apple, their quality and that ****, and Electronic games, at the same time?

Cause im not runnin Crysis on a frickin Mini, yo.
 
Spanky Deluxe said:
ATI rates 4870s at 160W although real measurements have actually been 187.2W. So at 12V, that would be 13.3 amps (15.6 amps real). Meaning two cards would be 26.7 amps (31.2 amps).
Click to expand...

Seems to be well within safe parameters for operating two 4870s on a Penryn, then, for example. At least for the traces on the mainboard. Perhaps when 10.6 rolls around, I'll plug in the 8800 GT and the 4870, if there's any benefit for it.
 
ScottishCaptain said:
Just out of curiosity... What do you guys need 2x4870's for? Someone said Crysis... Are people really buying Mac Pro's for Crysis these days? Or is this just some sort of "I have money and bootcamp and Crysis and want more FPS" deal?

-SC
Click to expand...

No offence, but that's a little ignorant. I don't think anyone here has bought a Mac Pro for gaming. We've bought Mac Pros for graphic design, writing code, video editing, simulation work, modelling, music making, cad modelling etc etc. That said, if we want more than two displays with top class 3d acceleration or if we'd rather play the odd game on the same machine we spent thousands on already instead of building a 'gaming rig' and getting KVMs etc then we 'need' things like two 4870s.

2002, I would hardly say the 4870s aren't latest and greatest. They're only surpassed by the 4870x2 and the not-much-better 4890. Chances are more Mac Pro owners have 30" displays than any other computer. If you want to run at 2560x1600 on such a display then you need dual 4870s. Did we buy these 30" screens for gaming on? No. We bought them for work. If we happen to like gaming on the side a bit though then we want to use the screens we paid good money for.
 
No offence, but that's a little ignorant.
Click to expand...

None taken. I didn't mean to be ignorant, if that's how I came across I apologize.

I don't think anyone here has bought a Mac Pro for gaming. We've bought Mac Pros for graphic design, writing code, video editing, simulation work, modelling, music making, cad modelling etc etc.
Click to expand...

A lot of that doesn't require 3D acceleration per say. Most 3D modeling packages for OS X also aren't 64-bit, so I can't imagine models and scenes would get large enough to actually bottleneck at the GPU, rather then 32-bit limitations first (though I /really/ hope Autodesk gets it together and throws us Maya 64-bit for 10.6).

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that it doesn't entirely make sense at the moment. XFire and SLI are only supported under Windows, if they even work at all. A good portion of this thread is dedicated to gaming under Bootcamp. Limitations in 10.5 and limited options for certain software packages are far /bigger/ issues then not having enough GPU power in the chassis at the moment.

I would sooner expect Apple to start taking their GPU selection more seriously once 10.6 is out, once the entire OS is 64-bit and they finally kick PowerPC support.

But honestly, if you want to game, and insist on playing the latest game at high res with the eye candy, you should have built a custom PC. You could have done so for a fraction of the cost of a Mac Pro...
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. SLI/XFire in a PC is an OOTB thing. It just works (for the most part). In a Mac Pro, it's a crap shoot. The system wasn't designed for it, the chassis/motherboard wasn't designed for it... Even the firmware wasn't designed for it.

If you want to run at 2560x1600 on such a display then you need dual 4870s
Click to expand...

I thought Apple had an adapter for the MDP port? Isn't there 1x DVI, 1x MDP?

We bought them for work. If we happen to like gaming on the side a bit though then we want to use the screens we paid good money for.
Click to expand...

That's sort of like buying an SGI MIPS/Irix box, and trying to play Quake on it. The limited sound card options for the Mac Pro alone should dissuade anyone from using this machine as a "gaming machine". Plus, if you've got a really good reason for using a Mac Pro (FCP, Logic, etc), you'd probably have a RAID card too- so no Bootcamp for you.

-SC
 
ScottishCaptain said:
None taken. I didn't mean to be ignorant, if that's how I came across I apologize.



A lot of that doesn't require 3D acceleration per say. Most 3D modeling packages for OS X also aren't 64-bit, so I can't imagine models and scenes would get large enough to actually bottleneck at the GPU, rather then 32-bit limitations first (though I /really/ hope Autodesk gets it together and throws us Maya 64-bit for 10.6).

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that it doesn't entirely make sense at the moment. XFire and SLI are only supported under Windows, if they even work at all. A good portion of this thread is dedicated to gaming under Bootcamp. Limitations in 10.5 and limited options for certain software packages are far /bigger/ issues then not having enough GPU power in the chassis at the moment.

I would sooner expect Apple to start taking their GPU selection more seriously once 10.6 is out, once the entire OS is 64-bit and they finally kick PowerPC support.



This is exactly what I'm trying to say. SLI/XFire in a PC is an OOTB thing. It just works (for the most part). In a Mac Pro, it's a crap shoot. The system wasn't designed for it, the chassis/motherboard wasn't designed for it... Even the firmware wasn't designed for it.



I thought Apple had an adapter for the MDP port? Isn't there 1x DVI, 1x MDP?



That's sort of like buying an SGI MIPS/Irix box, and trying to play Quake on it. The limited sound card options for the Mac Pro alone should dissuade anyone from using this machine as a "gaming machine". Plus, if you've got a really good reason for using a Mac Pro (FCP, Logic, etc), you'd probably have a RAID card too- so no Bootcamp for you.

-SC
Click to expand...

I don't mean we bought these cards mainly for work, I mean we bought these machines mainly for work. The cards we bought mainly for gaming. And yes, all Apple cards can drive 2560x1600 screens, they all come with at least one dual-link port but they can't run most games smoothly at 2560x1600 - which is why we want crossfire in Windows. What's the point in spending loads of extra money to build a seperate gaming pc when we can just buy a couple of nice cards and put them into our powerful work computer? Having a RAID card doesn't mean you can't have Boot Camp either, there are six SATA ports in a Mac Pro and no, not everyone that has a good reason for using a Mac Pro has bought a RAID card too. Many don't see the RAID card as much better than software raid, many don't really need RAID in the first place for what they do. It sounds more like you find it hard to believe that anyone could want or use a Mac Pro in the first place.
 
Well, I took the plunge and ordered an XFX 4870 1GB from TigerDirect. Should arrive tomorrow, I'll let you all know how it goes.

Planning to flash so it can be the only card in the machine (heard the 4870s are hot)
 
The Answer To Crossfire Questtion !!!

So, I spent the last day reinstalling Vista, all of the various pieces needed to run tests, and the Bootcamp 2.1 drivers.

Then I busted out the 4870s.......

I will cut to the chase...from my testing it appears that Apple has deliberately crippled their 4870 via the PC BIOS portion of the ROM. They either never put Crossfire support in....or removed it from an existing structure.

Basically, any combo of 4850, XFX 1Gig 4870, 4870x2, and 4890 resulted in working Crossfire. The second any of those cards was replaced with the OEM 4870 or an original reference 512 Meg 4870 running the intact Mac ROM, crossfire became "Disabled"

I am reminded of that famous scene in "Misery" where Cathy Bates has that poor guy's legs set up in a bed frame and she is swinging the sledge hammer to "hobble" him. In this instance, Steve Jobs was standing over the shoulder of a software engineer..."Well, if WE can't have working Crossfire in OSX, then NOBODY can anywhere...KILL IT !!!"

I was hoping the flashed 512 cards would have it working, as that might have been a simple resistor move. But it appears we have some more ROM hacking to do. Next I need to craft a 512 Meg rom using the pipolomo method and test if OSX works AND Crossfire works. Then MAYBE we can find a re-flash for the Apple OEM cards to re-enable it.

On another level...I am surprised by this. Crossfire works on Apple's 3870, why kill it here? I am guessing it is to keep people from buying 3 of them and burning a hole in the logicboard with the power draw. The prospect of their own hardware being a warranty liability was probably daunting. Take away the means to use their hardware to do this....and it becomes an "SEP" (Somebody Else's Problem)

In any case, they have eloquently given you yet another reason to NOT buy the $350 hobbled card.

It would be good if the guy with 2 of the OEM cards would try flashing them both with the "other" OEM ROM and see if anything changes. I have guests coming this weekend and I desperately need to open the curtains and start cleaning.

I will resume testing sometime next week hopefully, though it appears I may have booked another gig so it may not happen right away.

Though perhaps we should be figuring out how to get that 5.0 link speed figured out on XFX...making it the "perfect" card.
 
The Rominator said:
On another level...I am surprised by this. Crossfire works on Apple's 3870, why kill it here?
Click to expand...

Easy answer: Apple never sold a 3870 card. ATI did. It was never sold in Apple Stores or on the online Apple Store. It was a card manufactured by ATI and sold by ATI through regular retailers. All Apple did was not force ATI to take out the 3870 support parts when ATI gave them an updated OS X driver to include. The 4870, however, is very much an Apple part. Sold by Apple and in part, designed by Apple. Back when the 1900xt was sold, it wasn't an issue since you had to have specific Crossfire Edition master cards which Apple was obviously never going to include.
 
Still a crappy thing to do. I guess I see your point...ATI would have a hard time selling a deliberately crippled card, while Apple seems HAPPY to do so. Perhaps in a few months they'll introduce the new "Crossfire Enabled" 4870 and only raise the price by $100. Would be par for the course for them.

I am attaching a pic of the cards I used and the test machine with two of them in it.

I used the molex from second optical drive and a variety of splitters.

If anyone wants to work on this with me, I am open to testing, just not sure when I can do it.

Cards from lower left corner going clockwise are:

1. HIS 4850 (added 128K chip and a Mac'ed ROM)
2. MSI 4890 (works in OSX GREAT using Netkas magic)
3. XFX 4870 (works great using Rihldinger ROM)
4. 4870x2 (works 50% using Netkas trick....needs more work in OSX)
5. Apple OEM 4870 Hobbled Edition....single DVI port and gutted Crossfire abilities
6. Reference 4870/512 running pure Mac EFI ROM
 

Attachments

  • contestants.jpg
    contestants.jpg
    288.6 KB · Views: 141
  • 0521091351.jpg
    0521091351.jpg
    393.1 KB · Views: 164
Spanky Deluxe said:
Easy answer: Apple never sold a 3870 card. ATI did. It was never sold in Apple Stores or on the online Apple Store. It was a card manufactured by ATI and sold by ATI through regular retailers. All Apple did was not force ATI to take out the 3870 support parts when ATI gave them an updated OS X driver to include. The 4870, however, is very much an Apple part. Sold by Apple and in part, designed by Apple. Back when the 1900xt was sold, it wasn't an issue since you had to have specific Crossfire Edition master cards which Apple was obviously never going to include.
Click to expand...

What about the limited amount of "Silver Arrow" Apple-designed 3870s they never sold (but OWC did) and were considering as a BTO option? I don't know if anybody around here has one, but I'm willing to bet that those lack working crossfire as well.

Sweet array of cards, Rominator. I have to wonder, how much did that collection put you out? And will we see you develop a similar collection of 285s?
 
I too am interested in the "Silver Arrow" cards. I would be curious to see about Crossfire...I'd really be happy if someone would do a ROM dump of one.

The ROM from these might be the same, might be different. In fact, it would be great if someone with a Silver Arrow would do a screen shot of the System Profiler's views of the 3870....if same ROM # wouldn't need to bother with dump.

Not gonna get a fleet of 285s....too expensive.

Someone else's turn.
 
Look for a post around May 2nd.

It was Revision "F" and they spelled it wrong. (4780)

You should check and see if your Sys Profiler indicates Rev A....(an "a" at end of ROM number as I recall)
 
other OEM ROM

I was the one who posted it and I also missed named it 4780. I have since renamed it and its sitting on my desktop. So here it is. REVF dump. I too am curious about this as I was hoping at some point to crossfire my OEM card. But alas, I spent 327 US $ for a hobbled card, at least I think I did. I don't want to spend the money for another PC 4870 right now....
 

Attachments

  • 4870REVF.ROM.zip
    93.8 KB · Views: 119
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back