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[The Galaxy] S3 dominates the dinky little iPhone.
By what metric? Tech specs? If so, then, well, the Galaxy S3 is a much newer phone.
iOS is so sad and stale looking at this point.
Isn't consistency good?

If you want a wild UI change, I've heard jailbreaking an iPhone is easier than rooting an Android device. (Although it does yield less customizability, there are still plenty of UI tweaks available on Cydia.)
 
There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread. I pulled this wonderful response from RadarTheKat over at AllThingsD forum. It is truly insightful.

"That's not even close to the real question. And your assertion that you would NEVER EVER mistake a Galaxy S with an iPhone or that no one would also has little to do with this case other than to illustrate the similarity of the products. IOW, Apple does not need to prove that consumers are fooled into believing that the Samsung products are Apple products, but their case is bolstered by the fact that some consumers were thus fooled.

Since the Apple vs Samsung trial started there have been several articles per day detailing the courtroom proceedings. I've been seeing a lot of comments on these articles that show a lack of comprehension regarding patent law and how it applies. I thought I'd provide a bit of insight here for those who might not be conversant in the topic.

Apple's assertion in this lawsuit is that Samsung has copied elements of the iPhone and iPad for which Apple holds several patents. These particular patents are known as design patents. It seems a lot of folks don't take these patents seriously and go as far as to suggest that they should not exist. There is a good reason why they do exist, but to explain this we have to begin with a bit of background, and that requires that we speak about trademark law. Bear with me on this and hopefully I'll be able to clarify the purpose of design patents.

Most people are familiar with the idea of a trademark. By way of example, Kellogg, the cereal maker, has a trademark on Tony the Tiger and fought a battle with Exxon over Kellogs' clam that the use of an unnamed tiger in Exxon's advertising violates Kellogg's trademark for Tony the Tiger. Why? For 30 years, Exxon used its tiger character exclusively to promote its gasoline blend, but then, in the 1990's began using it to sell food. Kellogg said consumers are confused by the similarity between the cartoon tigers and may conclude that Kellogg is somehow behind soda, coffee and other items for sale at Exxon's TigerMart stores. The case went back and forth for several years, with Exxon initially winning the case, but ultimately losing on appeal. This case would not seem extraordinary to most people as most folks understand the concept of protecting a unique trademark like Kellogg's Tony the Tiger character.

Now let's look at another case, one that comes closer to the Apple vs Samsung case, but still an application of trademark law. This case is Ferrari vs Robert's Replicas. Back in the 1980's Robert's Replica's was in the business of manufacturing fiberglass kits that replicated the exterior features of Ferrari's Daytona Spyder and Testarossa automobiles. Roberts' copies were called the Miami Spyder and the Miami Coupe, respectively. Ferrari brought suit against Roberts in March 1988 alleging trademark infringement.

Here's what this case was about: After Ferrari vehicles have been on the market for a number of years, the design of those vehicles acquires what's called "secondary meaning", a concept at the heart of trademark law. Secondary meaning refers to an association of a design, like the design of a Ferrari vehicle, with quality and craftsmanship or other positive attributes one might associate with the Ferrari brand. After a design has acquired secondary meaning, trademark law can be applied to protect the company from those who would copy its designs and use them to promote their own products. Robert's copying of Ferrari's iconic designs could confuse the public and dilute the strength of Ferrari's brand. Just the presence of large numbers of replicas would dilute Ferrari's image of exclusivity, causing financial harm to Ferrari. Trademark law, under the concept of secondary meaning, protected Ferrari. The courts ruled in favor of Ferrari in this case and enjoined Roberts from producing the Miami Spyder and the Miami Coupe.

But how does this relate to design patent law?

The problem with using trademark law to protect a company's designs (under trademark law a product design or package design is referred to as "trade dress") is that a product has to be on the market for a long time before its design acquires secondary meaning (i.e. before the design becomes iconic and is seen by consumers as representative of the company behind the product). When competitors come in immediately after a new product design is introduced and copy it, as is the assertion in the Apple vs Samsung case, the originator of the design doesn't have the luxury of time needed for its product design to acquire secondary meaning in the eyes of consumers. Consumers immediately see the same design from multiple companies and so don't grow to associate the design with the company that originated that design.

This is where design patents come in. Where trademark protection of an iconic product design has no expiration, it takes time for a new product to acquire that protection (as stated above). A design patent offers protection of a new and novel design for a period of 14 years, giving a company protection of its original designs until they acquire secondary meaning and therefore protection under trademark law. So the design patent serves a valuable function for companies like Ferrari, and Apple.

Because this is not a trademark case, Apple does not need to prove that Samsung is trying to confuse the customer into believing that there are no significant differences between the products. Apple needs to prove only that Samsung infringed upon specific patented aspects of the iPhone and iPad designs. It's likely Samsung did this less to confuse customers and more to simply create a competitive product. Samsung's motivation is actually immaterial; only whether it actually created products that infringe Apple's design patents is what's in question. The fact that Apple has brought up the notion of trade dress and that some consumers were confused and believed they had purchased an Apple iPad when they actually purchased a Galaxy Tab is only to illustrate how similar the designs are, which bolsters its contention that infringement occurred."
 
After reading this entire thread, I've come to two conclusions:

1) there are a ton of "Androids in ios clothing" here. I mean, some of the excuses being made for Samsung are beyond comprehension.

2) Samsung will lose this case.
 
You sparked my interest and I looked it up:

If you are selected as a sworn juror for a trial, you are compensated at the rate of $15.00 per day after the first day's appearance. Mileage is paid at the rate of 34 cents per actual mileage traveled one way to court (CCP 215(a)). Mileage will be paid from the second day of your appearance. You will be paid by check and this may take up to two or three weeks.

It's interesting to me that most of the people answering this persons question, leave out the fact that most good companies pay full salary for an employee's jury duty. If the employer doesn't pay for jury duty the judge will excuse that person from duty for "Financial Hardship". So who is the "victim" here?
 

Agreed. Apple on the other hand is going after them for protecting their 'look' which they did develop. All the other makers did a 180 when the iPhone came out and immediately started copying it. Samsung is the worst offender...from looks to even OS icons.

I have a new found respect for Microsoft (other then that idiot Ballmer).

They came out with their own look of phone and their own unique OS.
 
Very helpful

There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread. I pulled this wonderful response from RadarTheKat over at AllThingsD forum. It is truly insightful.

"That's not even close to the real question. And your assertion that you would NEVER EVER mistake a Galaxy S with an iPhone or that no one would also has little to do with this case other than to illustrate the similarity of the products. IOW, Apple does not need to prove that consumers are fooled into believing that the Samsung products are Apple products, but their case is bolstered by the fact that some consumers were thus fooled.

Since the Apple vs Samsung trial started there have been several articles per day detailing the courtroom proceedings. I've been seeing a lot of comments on these articles that show a lack of comprehension regarding patent law and how it applies. I thought I'd provide a bit of insight here for those who might not be conversant in the topic.

Apple's assertion in this lawsuit is that Samsung has copied elements of the iPhone and iPad for which Apple holds several patents. These particular patents are known as design patents. It seems a lot of folks don't take these patents seriously and go as far as to suggest that they should not exist. There is a good reason why they do exist, but to explain this we have to begin with a bit of background, and that requires that we speak about trademark law. Bear with me on this and hopefully I'll be able to clarify the purpose of design patents.

Most people are familiar with the idea of a trademark. By way of example, Kellogg, the cereal maker, has a trademark on Tony the Tiger and fought a battle with Exxon over Kellogs' clam that the use of an unnamed tiger in Exxon's advertising violates Kellogg's trademark for Tony the Tiger. Why? For 30 years, Exxon used its tiger character exclusively to promote its gasoline blend, but then, in the 1990's began using it to sell food. Kellogg said consumers are confused by the similarity between the cartoon tigers and may conclude that Kellogg is somehow behind soda, coffee and other items for sale at Exxon's TigerMart stores. The case went back and forth for several years, with Exxon initially winning the case, but ultimately losing on appeal. This case would not seem extraordinary to most people as most folks understand the concept of protecting a unique trademark like Kellogg's Tony the Tiger character.

Now let's look at another case, one that comes closer to the Apple vs Samsung case, but still an application of trademark law. This case is Ferrari vs Robert's Replicas. Back in the 1980's Robert's Replica's was in the business of manufacturing fiberglass kits that replicated the exterior features of Ferrari's Daytona Spyder and Testarossa automobiles. Roberts' copies were called the Miami Spyder and the Miami Coupe, respectively. Ferrari brought suit against Roberts in March 1988 alleging trademark infringement.

Here's what this case was about: After Ferrari vehicles have been on the market for a number of years, the design of those vehicles acquires what's called "secondary meaning", a concept at the heart of trademark law. Secondary meaning refers to an association of a design, like the design of a Ferrari vehicle, with quality and craftsmanship or other positive attributes one might associate with the Ferrari brand. After a design has acquired secondary meaning, trademark law can be applied to protect the company from those who would copy its designs and use them to promote their own products. Robert's copying of Ferrari's iconic designs could confuse the public and dilute the strength of Ferrari's brand. Just the presence of large numbers of replicas would dilute Ferrari's image of exclusivity, causing financial harm to Ferrari. Trademark law, under the concept of secondary meaning, protected Ferrari. The courts ruled in favor of Ferrari in this case and enjoined Roberts from producing the Miami Spyder and the Miami Coupe.

But how does this relate to design patent law?

The problem with using trademark law to protect a company's designs (under trademark law a product design or package design is referred to as "trade dress") is that a product has to be on the market for a long time before its design acquires secondary meaning (i.e. before the design becomes iconic and is seen by consumers as representative of the company behind the product). When competitors come in immediately after a new product design is introduced and copy it, as is the assertion in the Apple vs Samsung case, the originator of the design doesn't have the luxury of time needed for its product design to acquire secondary meaning in the eyes of consumers. Consumers immediately see the same design from multiple companies and so don't grow to associate the design with the company that originated that design.

This is where design patents come in. Where trademark protection of an iconic product design has no expiration, it takes time for a new product to acquire that protection (as stated above). A design patent offers protection of a new and novel design for a period of 14 years, giving a company protection of its original designs until they acquire secondary meaning and therefore protection under trademark law. So the design patent serves a valuable function for companies like Ferrari, and Apple.

Because this is not a trademark case, Apple does not need to prove that Samsung is trying to confuse the customer into believing that there are no significant differences between the products. Apple needs to prove only that Samsung infringed upon specific patented aspects of the iPhone and iPad designs. It's likely Samsung did this less to confuse customers and more to simply create a competitive product. Samsung's motivation is actually immaterial; only whether it actually created products that infringe Apple's design patents is what's in question. The fact that Apple has brought up the notion of trade dress and that some consumers were confused and believed they had purchased an Apple iPad when they actually purchased a Galaxy Tab is only to illustrate how similar the designs are, which bolsters its contention that infringement occurred."

Thanks for this. It was very helpful. It provides everyone with a deeper understanding of what this trial is all about, and that Apple has a valid claim here. Of course there will always be diehards who will never accept the idea of "Software Patents" as being a valid concept. So be it. In the end reality always wins, whether they like it or not.
 
"simply evolved over time?" Way to get it wrong, man. Look, everybody knows the handset shape has represented "phone" from the beginning of all cell phones. That's certain. Heck, using green is also something that came well before cell phones too.

Yep. The very first cell phone used green for SEND, as have most since. HTC especially was fond of a left leaning phone.

handsets.png

But that's not the problem.
(snip)
Apple's icon is different in that it's not a green handset. It's a white handset icon, on a green background. Who else up in that swath of phones has a white handset on a green background?: Nobody. Not even Google. Got that? Not. Even. Google.

I know it's a long thread, and people don't read all the way through it, so I'll just repost an image and info for you. White phones on green backgrounds was a motif done on several WinMo dialer skins before the iPhone came out.

That could explain why Apple added stripes to their original plain phone icon, before they submitted it for a trademark. The trademark itself is very specific:

"The mark consists of a rectangle with rounded corners depicting a stylized white telephone receiver against a striped green and dark green background. A shade of light green covers the upper half of the rectangle design."

--------------------------
phone_icons.png

Due to the colors and lack of detail on the handset, the iPhone icon looks more like the WinMo one, than the Samsung icon looks like Apple's.
 
Really?

Not at all. I love Apple products. I just hate how the company acts. Ipod Classic and iPod touch are two of my favorite gadgets ever invented. Terrible comany though, ethics wise.

Apple protecting their design concepts is unethical? How so?
 
Further (and in relation to the long but interesting post above)

Apple is going to have a hard time (in my opinion) creating the idea that something like a phone icon has secondary meaning because it's not "iconic" to Apple. It's been around for over a decade. And as popular as the iPhone is. The icon is simply not ICONIC.

Yep. The very first cell phone used green for SEND, as have most since. HTC especially was fond of a left leaning phone.

View attachment 351969



I know it's a long thread, and people don't read all the way through it, so I'll just repost an image and info for you. White phones on green backgrounds was a motif done on several WinMo dialer skins before the iPhone came out.

That could explain why Apple added stripes to their original plain phone icon, before they submitted it for a trademark. The trademark itself is very specific:

"The mark consists of a rectangle with rounded corners depicting a stylized white telephone receiver against a striped green and dark green background. A shade of light green covers the upper half of the rectangle design."

--------------------------
View attachment 351968

Due to the colors and lack of detail on the handset, the iPhone icon looks more like the WinMo one, than the Samsung icon looks like Apple's.
 
So?

Better inform the EU that they're being delusional. They don't have software patents over there.

Yes, so that is their reality. Our reality is that we do have them. I guess you'll have to deal with our reality sooner or later.
 
Yes, so that is their reality. Our reality is that we do have them. I guess you'll have to deal with our reality sooner or later.

Yes they are there but at the same time we can scream rightfully so that they are crap and that they should not be granted (aka the law needs to change)
Kdarling as pointed out before when patents changed in the use and more crapents were granted.

Apple has taken crappents to a new low. Hell Apple is by far the worlds largest patent troll.
 
I don't understand how a former APPLE designer Susan Kare could be used as an expert supposedly neutral witness. Even so, if she picked up a Samsung phone and thought it wa an iPhone she's anything BUT an expert. Jeez. :rolleyes:

In case case, if Apple wins this ridiculous lawsuit I will never buy an Apple product again. I really mean that.

It's always funny to see an armchair critic. A professional's credentials are completely useless because she accidentally mistook a similar looking phone for another one?

Of course Apple would only bring in experts that won't go against them. The same for Samsung. Kare worked for Apple for a only couple of years in the 80s and has done work for many other companies including Microsoft and Facebook so it's not like she's a fangirl.
 
Further (and in relation to the long but interesting post above)

Apple is going to have a hard time (in my opinion) creating the idea that something like a phone icon has secondary meaning because it's not "iconic" to Apple. It's been around for over a decade. And as popular as the iPhone is. The icon is simply not ICONIC.

But Apple is arguing that Samsung copied more than just the icons. Whether or not you like the iPhone, there is no arguing that the iPhone, in and of itself, *is* iconic. And, IMO, Apple has a right to try to preserve that.
 
Instead of rallying against something stupid that's caused more trouble than it's worth and doesn't protect innovation in the least (at least in its current state), I should just accept it?

Why?

So, how is you're not accepting it going to change anything?

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to
change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Having the wisdom to know the difference is the key element.
 
So, how is you're not accepting it going to change anything?

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to
change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Having the wisdom to know the difference is the key element.

It's that go-getter, can do attitude you've got that makes me respect you. Keep on keeping on, son!
 
http://allthingsd.com/20120807/sams...ld-be-better-if-it-were-more-like-the-iphone/

Wow, a 132-page report from Samsung that they used when developing the original Galaxy S. I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind is going to pretend that Samsung has not been looking to the iPhone extensively while developing their phones.

This document is so huge I'd have to say it really deserves its own thread.

Could be the proverbial smoking gun. Interesting evidence.
 
To all those who passionately claim that software patents are useless, why don't you go develop a groundbreaking application, then *don't* patent it, and try to make a living out of it? Go ahead, I dare you. Oh wait... you're here picking fights anonymously. And if the EU doesn't, in fact, have a software patent system (I admit I don't know if this is fact), can you tell me where most of the successful profitable developers are from (a list of developers from the USA, and ones from the EU would prove your point)?

On a serious note, there is a whole lot about the patent system that the vast majority of us don't understand. If you are truly passionate about changing the system, make more of an effort to learn about the field than just reading blog posts or someone's comment in a forum. Otherwise, leave this to the professionals. (I'm not a professional).
 
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That people might buy a Samsung device either thinking it's an Apple or that it's just as good as an Apple.

1.) There's nothing infringing about a product being as good as an Apple product.

2.) If a person has gone all the way through the purchase of a (non-counterfeit) phone and hasn't figured out whether or not it's an Apple product, I don't think the manufacturer is the problem...
 
To all those who passionately claim that software patents are useless, why don't you go develop a groundbreaking application, then *don't* patent it, and try to make a living out of it? Go ahead, I dare you. Oh wait... you're here picking fights anonymously. And if the EU doesn't, in fact, have a software patent system (I admit I don't know if this is fact), can you tell me where most of the successful profitable developers are from (a list of developers from the USA, and ones from the EU would prove your point).

On a serious note, there is a whole lot about the patent system that the vast majority of us don't understand. If you are truly passionate about changing the system, make more of an effort to learn about the field than just reading blog posts or someone's comment in a forum. Otherwise, leave this to the professionals. (I'm not a professional).

We'll take John Carmack as an example. In case you don't know who he is, he's a guy who lives and breathes binary. Can literally write better code than 99% of the rest of the world ever could while being half drunk and 3/4ths of the way asleep. He probably speaks it like a second language.

The Khronos Group refers to him as "sir", even Bill Gates pees his pants a little around him. People actually line up in droves to listen to the guy talk for two hours about stuff they're not going to understand.

He is the Ubergeek. The grand poobah of realtime 3D. And he's never patented a single bit of his code. Actually hates the idea of software patents in general. He even open sources his game engines after 10 years or so.

Yet the bastard drives a Ferrari. That's a car that costs a whole bunch. So I doubt he's hurting for money much.
 
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