Senator Asks Apple About Location-Tracking Issues as Experts Weigh In

[Nishi100]

I think that it's to do with the geo-location on the camera app, as a person would want to immediately launch the camera app and take a picture, without waiting for the GPS to lock on to them.

That is fine; however, not encrypting the data isn't "fine" at all - they should at least try to keep our location secret, or delete the older GPS locations.

 

[*LTD*]

Why is it necessary to keep your location a secret? What are Google and Apple going to do to you? What *exactly* and *specifically* is there to be afraid of?
Your location is *never* a secret, unless you're the President and it's a national crisis.

What, are you worried that Apple and Google saw you shop at Target? LOL

 

[Apple OC]

Why is it necessary to keep your location a secret? What are Google and Apple going to do to you? What *exactly* and *specifically* is there to be afraid of?
Your location is *never* a secret, unless you're the President and it's a national crisis.

What, are you worried that Apple and Google saw you shop at Target? LOL

I am more interested in knowing what good or purpose this is even been added for?

plus unencrypted is a major privacy concern ... just of the top of my mind, I can see where someone's house could be broken into by tracking the owners whereabouts.

 

[FearNo1]

Just like the mactard to not question why apple is storing this info without informing consumers. The lengths that you guys will go to defend a company is astounding

Why is it necessary to keep your location a secret? What are Google and Apple going to do to you? What *exactly* and *specifically* is there to be afraid of?
Your location is *never* a secret, unless you're the President and it's a national crisis.

What, are you worried that Apple and Google saw you shop at Target? LOL

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Really? This is common knowledge and is legal. All cell phones have this backdoor built in. Al Gore is on Apple's board. This became law in 2001.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Wouldn't it be funny if they put Steve in jail?

 

[kdarling]

Why is it necessary to keep your location a secret? What are Google and Apple going to do to you? What *exactly* and *specifically* is there to be afraid of?
Your location is *never* a secret, unless you're the President and it's a national crisis.

There are many people whose movements are best kept secret from certain others, with risk of life if revealed.

Battered women or kids in a secret shelter home, witness protection participants, undercover agents of all sorts, dissidents and rebels.

On a less serious note, there are probably some bosses who gave out iPhones, checking company iTunes hosts this weekned to see if their employees' travel receipts and sick days match their movements.

 

[FearNo1]

How is this "common knowledge" when apple supposedly added this all seeing eye feature in 2010? And with al bore on apple's board, that is even more reason to be concerned...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13145562

The men claim that the facility to record users' positions was added with the iOS4 software update, released in June 2010.

Really? This is common knowledge and is legal. All cell phones have this backdoor built in. Al Gore is on Apple's board. This became law in 2001.

 

[*LTD*]

I am more interested in knowing what good or purpose this is even been added for?

plus unencrypted is a major privacy concern ... just of the top of my mind, I can see where someone's house could be broken into by tracking the owners whereabouts.

As opposed to the much easier method of everyone in your neighbourhood noticing you're at work all day?

There are many people whose movements are best kept secret from certain others, with risk of life if revealed.

Battered women or kids in a secret shelter home, witness protection participants, undercover agents of all sorts, dissidents and rebels.

On a less serious note, there are probably some bosses who gave out iPhones, checking company iTunes hosts this weekned to see if their employees' travel receipts and sick days match their movements.

A HUGE stretch. There are other, easier ways of finding people. People in witness protection . . . carry items and live in areas that suit their situation. They are told what to do and not to do by the authorities. Personal phones are taken into account. Duh!

Undercover agents? LOL WTF is this, Russia House? I'm pretty sure they're "UNDERCOVER", meaning, tracking them would be useless, since there is nothing advertising their personal information. All anyone would get is random location data that could belong to anyone.

Dumbest examples ever. And you're a smart guy otherwise, so it's surprising.

 

[*LTD*]

delete

 

[kdarling]

A HUGE stretch. There are other, easier ways of finding people.

Not this easy.

It's not so much about finding people at any moment, but knowing where they've been. And this file makes it dirt simple to find that out.

Undercover agents? LOL WTF is this, Russia House? I'm pretty sure they're "UNDERCOVER", meaning, tracking them would be useless, since there is nothing advertising their personal information. All anyone would get is random location data that could belong to anyone.

A guy in your terrorist cell claims he's not FBI, because he's never been to Washington DC. Even his phone contacts are all people nowhere near there. Yet what if his cache list says otherwise. He's probably dead.

Dumbest examples ever. And you're a smart guy otherwise, so it's surprising.

By now, you also know that I always speak from personal experience when possible.

I was Military Intelligence and NSA in the heart of the Cold War. I did undercover field work at times. This kind of easy info is both priceless and dangerous. I've seen field officers compromised in almost every way imaginable. My scenarios are not stretches by any means.

 

[*LTD*]

Not this easy.

It's not so much about finding people at any moment, but knowing where they've been. And this file makes it dirt simple to find that out.



A guy in your terrorist cell claims he's not FBI, because he's never been to Washington DC. Even his phone contacts are all people nowhere near there. Yet what if his cache list says otherwise. He's probably dead.



By now, you also know that I always speak from personal experience when possible.

I was Military Intelligence and NSA in the heart of the Cold War. I did undercover field work at times. This kind of easy info is both priceless and dangerous. I've seen field officers compromised in almost every way imaginable. My scenarios are not stretches by any means.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Isolated examples dependent upon a very rare set of circumstances that the average user won't encounter. I *do* believe your experience, you're very well versed when it comes to tech and no doubt well-treavelled, but this is just too much of a stretch. Yes, it's possible. But it's also possible to gain the same information in much more common and easier ways, instead of the super-spy scenario. I'm not sure how your terrorist cell example applies to anything relevant (or dangerous) for the average, everyday person.

I'm pretty sure your average FBI agent's iPhone (assuming they carry around iPhones) that has been cleared for use (and very likely modified) by the FBI can be stripped right down forensically and will have revealed absolutely nothing.

The average user who is *not* a secret agent really has nothing to be in up in arms about, provided they haven't just knocked off a bank or killed someone.

 

[Apple OC]

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Isolated examples dependent upon a very rare set of circumstances that the average user won't encounter. I *do* believe your experience, you're very well versed when it comes to tech and no doubt well-treavelled, but this is just too much of a stretch. Yes, it's possible. But it's also possible to gain the same information in much more common and easier ways, instead of the super-spy scenario. I'm not sure how your terrorist cell example applies to anything relevant (or dangerous) for the average, everyday person.

I'm pretty sure your average FBI agent's iPhone (assuming they carry around iPhones) that has been cleared for use (and very likely modified) by the FBI can be stripped right down forensically and will have revealed absolutely nothing.

The average user who is *not* a secret agent really has nothing to be in up in arms about, provided they haven't just knocked off a bank or killed someone.

for all your defending of this feature ... can you give me even one positive reason this is good for the average person that out-weighs the negative ones ... just one

 

[FearNo1]

Its good that you are at least suspicious of apple's actions. There has to be a reason why apple inc still has not responded to this. BTW, before someone asks, no I do not have an android or other smart phone as they could be worse at spying than iphone.

Not this easy.

It's not so much about finding people at any moment, but knowing where they've been. And this file makes it dirt simple to find that out.



A guy in your terrorist cell claims he's not FBI, because he's never been to Washington DC. Even his phone contacts are all people nowhere near there. Yet what if his cache list says otherwise. He's probably dead.



By now, you also know that I always speak from personal experience when possible.

I was Military Intelligence and NSA in the heart of the Cold War. I did undercover field work at times. This kind of easy info is both priceless and dangerous. I've seen field officers compromised in almost every way imaginable. My scenarios are not stretches by any means.

 

[Apple OC]

Its good that you are at least suspicious of apple's actions. There has to be a reason why apple inc still has not responded to this. BTW, before someone asks, no I do not have an android or other smart phone as they could be worse at spying than iphone.

my guess is ... it is some future AdSpam thing Apple wants to implement such as how FaceBook and Google use to make money.

They goofed by not encrypting it and will likely change that

 

[Rodimus Prime]

for all your defending of this feature ... can you give me even one positive reason this is good for the average person that out-weighs the negative ones ... just one

That is a good question.

I have a huge issue with how it is done and the fact that you can not opt out of it. On top of that Apple has piss poor protection of the file and Apple history at security is not exactly the best.
There should be a way to opt out. But collecting them with out my choice is an issue.

I trust Google a hell of a lot more with the info and being more up front about it then Apple and I do not trust Google that much.

If LTD wants an example other wise you can see companies start using these feature on the phones to track employees at all time and what they do. Or in court cases them being pulled it to use against one spouse in a mess divorce.
Spying on ones spouse is another example.

 

[FearNo1]

Interesting...location based ads like in minority report Hmm but wouldn't that eat up your data, all of the querying going back and forth. That is one of the reasons why I don't have a smartphone

my guess is ... it is some future AdSpam thing Apple wants to implement such as how FaceBook and Google use to make money.

They goofed by not encrypting it and will likely change that

 

[FearNo1]

Using your example, couldn't they do that with the GPS tech in most fones today simply by saving your location info in a server side database? I wouldn't put anything pass these companies and govt today.

If LTD wants an example other wise you can see companies start using these feature on the phones to track employees at all time and what they do. Or in court cases them being pulled it to use against one spouse in a mess divorce.
Spying on ones spouse is another example.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Using your example, couldn't they do that with the GPS tech in most fones today simply by saving your location info in a server side database? I wouldn't put anything pass these companies and govt today.

you can turn off the GPS in a phone and most people assume that when you do it stops tracking you yet as it already been shown it just starts storing info base the cell towers.

I just do not like the fact you can not opt out of it. It just feels wrong to me.

 

[k995]

you can turn off the GPS in a phone and most people assume that when you do it stops tracking you yet as it already been shown it just starts storing info base the cell towers.

I just do not like the fact you can not opt out of it. It just feels wrong to me.

Not just wrong but probably illegal in several countries.

My own country belgium for example its illegal to store such data without consent of the person itself.

 

[xIGmanIx]

Typical ignorance. If this was google doing it you wouldn't be able to speak you would be so worked up about it. Funny how google must be evil but apple only has benign intentions.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Isolated examples dependent upon a very rare set of circumstances that the average user won't encounter. I *do* believe your experience, you're very well versed when it comes to tech and no doubt well-treavelled, but this is just too much of a stretch. Yes, it's possible. But it's also possible to gain the same information in much more common and easier ways, instead of the super-spy scenario. I'm not sure how your terrorist cell example applies to anything relevant (or dangerous) for the average, everyday person.

I'm pretty sure your average FBI agent's iPhone (assuming they carry around iPhones) that has been cleared for use (and very likely modified) by the FBI can be stripped right down forensically and will have revealed absolutely nothing.

The average user who is *not* a secret agent really has nothing to be in up in arms about, provided they haven't just knocked off a bank or killed someone.

 

[kdarling]

-- The cache is good

Let's be clear: the cell/hotspot lookup caching was undoubtedly an innocently added coding feature.

• Most developers would've added some kind of cache, and here's why:

Think about how often your device sees your home WiFi hotspot or cell tower. Now imagine if your (and everyone else's) device was constantly looking up the same location from Apple or Google every time you took a photo at home or did a search or used Yelp or Facebook or whatever.

All those extra lookups, tiny as they are, would cause unnecessary battery, data and network usage. (If the Verizon iPhone actually has no such cache, then I see that as a small disadvantage... the network can handle it, but it's still extra battery usage for no good reason.)

• So cache = good idea. It's being unencrypted that was a bad idea.

-- Revealing the cache was not good

This is the debatable part, so feel free to disagree.

IMO, publicizing the file and someone providing apps to display this information before it was fixed, was irresponsible. That's just grandstanding, and quite probably also put some people's lives at risk because of the sudden ease of access it gave, and the nature and depth of the information.

They claim they contacted Apple's Product Security Team, although they didn't say how long ago. If they wanted to be hotshots, they could've issued an ultimatum to Apple. It's been done before:

Does everyone remember the very first iPhone 1.01 update? It was forced out of Apple because a huge security hole in Safari was threatened to be publicly revealed the next day.

So these guys could've made news anyway, but _after_ the bug was fixed. (Yes, I know the flaw was in a book by a different researcher, but that doesn't mean anyone at Apple or Google in a responsible position knew about it.)

 

[FearNo1]

No, I did not mean the traditional GPS. I was referring to the one that the 911 system uses. I don't think that can be turned off. IOW, if you have any modern cell phone, you can be tracked. The difference is that with the iphone, the info is stored on the phone itself.

you can turn off the GPS in a phone and most people assume that when you do it stops tracking you yet as it already been shown it just starts storing info base the cell towers.

I just do not like the fact you can not opt out of it. It just feels wrong to me.

 

[Apple OC]

Not just wrong but probably illegal in several countries.

My own country belgium for example its illegal to store such data without consent of the person itself.

No iPhones in Belgium?

 

[Rodimus Prime]

-- The cache is good

Let's be clear: the cell/hotspot lookup caching was undoubtedly an innocently added coding feature.

• Most developers would've added some kind of cache, and here's why:

Think about how often your device sees your home WiFi hotspot or cell tower. Now imagine if your (and everyone else's) device was constantly looking up the same location from Apple or Google every time you took a photo at home or did a search or used Yelp or Facebook or whatever.

All those extra lookups, tiny as they are, would cause unnecessary battery, data and network usage. (If the Verizon iPhone actually has no such cache, then I see that as a small disadvantage... the network can handle it, but it's still extra battery usage for no good reason.)

• So cache = good idea. It's being unencrypted that was a bad idea.

-- Revealing the cache was not good

This is the debatable part, so feel free to disagree.

IMO, publicizing the file and someone providing apps to display this information before it was fixed, was irresponsible. That's just grandstanding, and quite probably also put some people's lives at risk because of the sudden ease of access it gave, and the nature and depth of the information.

They claim they contacted Apple's Product Security Team, although they didn't say how long ago. If they wanted to be hotshots, they could've issued an ultimatum to Apple. It's been done before:

Does everyone remember the very first iPhone 1.01 update? It was forced out of Apple because a huge security hole in Safari was threatened to be publicly revealed the next day.

So these guys could've made news anyway, but _after_ the bug was fixed. (Yes, I know the flaw was in a book by a different researcher, but that doesn't mean anyone at Apple or Google in a responsible position knew about it.)

while the catch in theory is good what is the reason for storying data for what appears to be the life of the device and then backing it up. Lets compared that with Google that only stores a limited number of the phone. If you are in a new area you would still have to look up that information. Regular areas would be covered.
On top of that battery saving are wipe out by the calls home reporting it back to Google and Apple.