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AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
What about Apple? Why don't they go after them for tracking every little thing you do with their services. If you want to talk about a company that violates & then documents our privacy go after Apple.

Don't be a fool.

But it's ok if Apple does it. What are you thinking? :D

Does anyone else really just not care about this? I could care less. It's not like the info is going to end up in China.

But would you care if it was Microsoft, or Verizon or an Apple competitor? That is the question.

If this were Google or M$ you apologists would be foaming at the mouth. Nice fallacious argument - just because we can be tracked in our cars with traffic cams, or GPS devices, etc, doesn't mean this, or those instances are legal.

This is clearly in violation of EU law, for those of you who are interested:

How true! These same people were hanging Samsung a week or so ago when it was erroneously reported that they installed a key logger on their laptops. It's funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot.


http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/information_society/l14012_en.htm

We should at least be given the choice to opt-out, and the purposes and disclosure policies should be clearly stated, not buried in a 30-page ToS.

How true! These same people were hanging Samsung a week or so ago when it was erroneously reported that they installed a key logger on their laptops. It's funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot.


You know you're talking to a fanboy when they dismiss and downplay an issue such as this one.

You should be ashamed. You think because someone makes a shiny phone they can treat you this way?

I wonder how Steve would feel if people could know his location 24/7...

Anything Apple does is ok because they know what is best for us.
 

DamnItsHot

macrumors newbie
Oct 19, 2007
5
0
Tejas
He fits both characterizations...

I think it is interesting that he says the data is easily accessible by "criminals and bad actors". As a politician he has a high probability of fitting in the criminal category and so far as his so called acting goes he definitely fits that category. Could he have been looking in the mirror when he spewed this garbage?

Couldn't make it as an actor so he went into a lower tier - politics. ;)
 

dfs

macrumors 6502
Sep 17, 2008
357
183
California
Two points

1.) All loose talk to the contrariy there's no such thing as The Cloud. There's a bunch of Clouds owned and operated by different corporations. In deciding whether, or how much, to entrust private data to any particular Cloud, one should ask about the security track record for the corporation in question: security in terms of not being hacked, etc., and also in terms of respecting privacy. Until now I would have put Apple at the top of my list. Now I can't help having a wee niggle of doubt. So here's an example of corporate foot-shoot.

2. Apple needs to distribute a free app that lets you wipe this data from your iPhone without having to jailbreak it. And it needs to do this pronto. And, if this sort of data is really necessary to make the thing work properly, in the next version of 10S it needs to have a user-definable limit of how far back in time the record-keeping goes.
 

idunn

macrumors 6502a
Jan 12, 2008
500
400
Due disclosure

;) Of the nine specific questions Senator Al Franken posed to Mr. Jobs, the ninth may prove the most revealing:

'To whom, if anyone, including Apple, has this data been disclosed? When and why were these disclosures made?'
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
So somebody sues you for (insert nefarious activity of your choice) and you deny it saying you were nowhere near Location-X at the time. Then, under rules of disclosure, they subpeona your iPhone/iPad/MBP/TC to obtain your data. The data shows you were at least in the vicinity of Location-X and so had the opportunity to perform (aforesaid nefarious activity). They win their case and you are required to pay $250K in damages, not to mention the $50K you already spent in legal fees. Did you do it? Maybe not... but it doesn't matter, they won and you lost.

If the lawyer that you spent $50K on is too stupid to ask a simple question: What evidence, other than guesswork, is there that locations in this file are in any way related to positions where the phone has been?

On the other hand, what you describe here is not a scenario where you are damaged by some privacy violation, it is a scenario where you are damaged by the existence of forensic evidence that can be used against you. That's a completely different matter. Would you complain if your car was photographed by a speeding camera near that location? What if your car was photographed by a speeding camera that was setup incorrectly to the wrong speed limit?
 
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dfs

macrumors 6502
Sep 17, 2008
357
183
California
Correction to Yankee

Quoth Yankee, " it is a scenario where you are damaged by the existence of forensic evidence that can be used against you. That's a completely different matter. Would you complain if your car was photographed by a speeding camera near that location? What if your car was photographed by a speeding camera that was setup incorrectly to the wrong speed limit?" No, that's a poor analogy. A much more accurate one one is the "black box" which compiles forensic evidence that can potentially be used by the police, by courts both criminal and civil, and by third parties (such as auto insurance companies). What do you want to bet that there's going to be a huge amount of litigation concerning these devices before it's settled who exactly can use this data and under what conditions?
 

rlhamil

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2010
248
190
the senator is an ass

The existence of this data has been known for some time now.

Further, some googling suggests that Apple had already responded to some congressmen's inquiries on the subject, again, well before it got this level of publicity.

From what I've read, they apparently collect locations, WiFi MAC addresses, etc, _anonymously_ (not retaining information that would track any particular person or phone, unless you _choose_ to track a lost or stolen iPhone).

Now...why would they do that? I just thought of one reason.

Geolocation by WiFi MAC address (the only way iPod touch or non-3G iPad can geolocate, if they can't use cell towers and don't include GPS) depends on a database of locations and WiFi MAC addresses. Apple probably has previously used one licensed from Skyhook or Google. I imagine that was built with equipment carried in delivery vans, or in the same vehicles that take Google's "street view" panoramic photos. Licensing access to that database must cost Apple something.

Now...what happens? Somebody says "duh, an iPhone has WiFi and a GPS, that means we've got a fleet of surveying equipment already deployed." Doesn't matter that they can't schedule the coverage; sooner or later, someone is likely to drive near just about every fixed WiFi AP on the planet with an iPhone. Now...the data quality wouldn't be as good...but even whoever did the earlier database must've had that problem (people with mobile access points would confuse the heck out of things, for instance). So maybe it takes multiple hits to confirm something as fixed, or to improve the accuracy. But eventually you still get to the same end result - a WiFi MAC address vs location database that Apple owns free and clear.

They might even be able to do some work with cell tower location data, and perhaps produce data good enough to compete with the existing geolocation database providers. After all, Apple does have to maintain some infrastructure for various functions: their notification servers, software update servers, etc. Anything they can get as a side-effect of the normal operation of iDevices and their infrastructure, that helps pay for it, lets them make a bigger profit and/or be more competitive (remember, for all Apple's rep for high prices, the iPad 2 supposedly is as well or better priced compared to competing devices with similar specs).

The question here probably isn't whether the data is being abused; and raising that question is IMO _pandering_, not surprising for a liberal, who after all must have idiots for constituents, or they wouldn't have been elected. (I mean, really, Heinlein summarized economics concisely with TANSTAAFL, and there _is_ something usually ignored called the Tenth Amendment, which basically says the states can be socialist if they want, but the federal government can't.)

The _real_ question is what safeguards are in effect to minimize the potential for abuse. Ok, we theoretically need a warrant for this sort of thing (although I wouldn't put it past individual states to play fast and loose). But what about foreign governments, already inclined towards police state behavior? What about people _knowing_ what risk they're putting themselves at in case of some civil suit?

IMO, Apple needs to provide and prominently _document_ a way to clear the saved data, and/or document the degree to which disabling location services prevents its retention (let alone anonymous reporting) in the first place. (For jailbreakers, I gather there's already a Cydia app that once installed, will automatically delete data older than a few minutes.) People need to understand that encrypted backups would make the information sync'd back to their Mac or PC safer. And so on.

Generating hysteria is perhaps a useful political tool, for those inclined to address themselves to the least common denominator. But asking the more specific questions which would lead to real answers takes more than PR, it takes a functional brain, or at least the sense to hire a staffer who has one or can consult one.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
The existence of this data has been known for some time now.

But not well known, and there was no app that allowed everybody to easily see it.

There was a lot of misinformation about it at first, which is the reason why the Senator made the request for more info.

As it turns out, it's almost certainly a simple coding goof that leaves location response data cached for at least a year, perhaps forever.

If they're smart, Apple will release a statement this weekend, so it can be a dead news issue by Monday morning stock opening.
 

louiek

macrumors 6502
Mar 7, 2006
350
62
Knutters Knoll, Melbourne
has anyone actually used the app in question? The data is so wildly inaccurate as to make it pointless. Even recompiling it with a 1000 times more accuracy has me placed in locations I haven't been to since I go an iPhone. So the question is not one of data, per se, but data accuracy: law enforcement have known about this for ages. If my iPhone says I was near a scene of crime, but I disagree, I bet I know which side the police would go with. That is the trouble with this data.

How did you do this? I'd like to map our recent holiday to France and all the tiny little towns we passed through but who's names I didn't document.
 

Apple OC

macrumors 68040
Oct 14, 2010
3,667
4,328
Hogtown
I read the police in Michigan were downloading info from people's iPhones on traffic stops ... only a matter of time before some innocent people get trumped up on bogus charges ... police have been known to have tunnel vision. (example ... sir, what were you doing at Avenue and Main street at 3pm this afternoon?)

Citizens do not need this kind of technology sneaking into their day to day lives.

This is a serious breach of people's right to privacy.
 

Mr Fusion

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2007
841
1,061
Not That Big Of Deal...

... Really? Since privacy issues don't seem to mean squat to some people here, mind handing over your credit card numbers, SSN's, compromising photographs etc. They uh, help improve my networks. ;)
 

Balaamsdonkey

macrumors 6502
Jun 24, 2008
289
60
Washington
I could be wrong but I think the GPS recording has more to do with GPS locating for photography than anything else. Isn't that how GPS enabled cameras work? They check the GPS signal every few seconds and record it? I could be wrong.

It would make more sense to just record the GPS info when a photo is taken though.
 

caspersoong

macrumors 6502a
Feb 27, 2011
604
30
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

I don't mind. Location is not so important.
 

usptact

macrumors regular
Apr 2, 2011
157
0
I would like to look at this file and even better : may be to convert it somehow to Google's KMZ... just fur curiosity to see where i've been :)
 
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