Serious Iphone Competition on the Way?

[Tosser]

In order for it to rival the iPhone it would have to rival its software. That's all the iPhone is, really, great software in a somewhat unimportant and unassuming vessel.

Unlike most web pundits (particularly around these parts), I'm not all that blown away by OS X as such (I'm talking computers now, not the iPhone). Its supposed vast superiority over Windows is more myth than truth. No really, don't start lecturing me on the subject... I've used both platforms since the early 90's, so spare me the "but Windows has like millions of viruses and uhh crashes all the time!". Windows Mobile, on the other hand, is very much inferior to the iPhone OS. Perhaps this will have changed in 5 years' time, but as of today, no Windows Mobile or Symbian based phone has anything on the iPhone except better potentially better hardware specs.

You forgot: Much more functionality.

In fact, the iPhone OS X's only superiority is it's simplicity (i.e. most of which is derived from having less than a tenth of the functionality than that of Windows Mobile). In fact, much of the lack of hardware features (proper BT, SDHC/SDIO slot, CF slot and so on) means that the iPhone OS is even simpler. All in all, it's simplicity is mostly derived from a lack of features.

 

[Anuba]

You forgot: Much more functionality.

In fact, the iPhone OS X's only superiority is it's simplicity (i.e. most of which is derived from having less than a tenth of the functionality than that of Windows Mobile). In fact, much of the lack of hardware features (proper BT, SDHC/SDIO slot, CF slot and so on) means that the iPhone OS is even simpler. All in all, it's simplicity is mostly derived from a lack of features.

Well, I'm the wrong person to agree that simplicity is a bad thing. I work for a company that made its success precisely by stripping away superfluous features and functionality and streamlining the tools. If you make the quantity of features and options into some sort of goal, you're creating a Swiss army knife that may do a myriad of things, but it does all of them poorly.

 

[BongoBanger]

I think the iPhone still has the best UI out there however the gap is getting smaller and smaller between it and the competition. The HTC Diamond and the Omnia's respective touchscreen skins hide the majority of WinMo's clunkiness and the average user isn't really going to see it. Another point about the iPhone's UI is that you don't have to do anything complex because, well, you can't really.

As for WinMo, as a previous poster said, you either love it or hate it. I fall into the former camp because it allows you to do a lot of things that other mobile operating systems just don't. Sure, it can be frustrating at times but I guess that's the price you pay for its versatility.

In the end everyone wins because it means Apple have to keep raising their game - and not make the same mistake that Motorola made - as do the other manufacturers. Competition should therefore be welcomed, not dismissed.

 

[Tosser]

Well, I'm the wrong person to agree that simplicity is a bad thing. I work for a company that made its success precisely by stripping away superfluous features and functionality and streamlining the tools. If you make the quantity of features and options into some sort of goal, you're creating a Swiss army knife that may do a myriad of things, but it does all of them poorly.

That's not at all what I said. I don't mind streamlining and removing superfluous features. But the iPhone is so crippled that it's a joke.
Just to name a few:

No Disk Mode
No way to dump a file onto it and read/listen to it later, unless you're connected to your own iTunes library, or, with a few certain file types, you can mail them to yourself and then fetch them over the network.

No expansion slots whatsoever, and hence:
– no SDIO
– no memory expansion
No way of editing any sort of file – be it word documents, excel sheets, audio files, pictures or the like.
No way of forwarding SMS to several people.
No copy/paste
Crippled bluetooth stack

And there's plenty more, but I can't remember them all.

In fact, to me, it sounds like a incapable thin client. It's akin to an advanced "reader" of sorts –*you can't really use it to create anything except an email. It's like a web-based e-reader with a little phone capabilities.

It's the epitome of form over function.

 

[Anuba]

That's not at all what I said. I don't mind streamlining and removing superfluous features. But the iPhone is so crippled that it's a joke.
Just to name a few:

No Disk Mode
No way to dump a file onto it and read/listen to it later, unless you're connected to your own iTunes library, or, with certain file types, you can mail them to yourself and then fetch them over the network.

I think the idea is to offer basic functionality out of the box and let users decide which direction to go by way of 3rd party software. The top application right now is Air Sharing by Avatron which lets you transfer files like crazy between the iPhone and any web browser on your computer.

No expansion slots whatsoever, and hence:
– no SDIO
– no memory expansion

Right, but then again what other phone ships with 16 GB out of the box? My previous 3G phone (a Sony Ericsson P1i) indeed has memory expansion, but with only 64 MB of internal memory, you're gonna need it... most manufacturers give you XX or XXX megabytes plus a card slot.

No way of editing any sort of file – be it word documents, excel sheets, audio files, pictures or the like.
No way of forwarding SMS to several people.
No copy/paste
Crippled bluetooth stack

Yeah, the SMS forwarding issue and the BT stack certainly leave room for improvement. As for editing files, IMO those things are so awkward and time consuming to do on a cramped handheld anyway, I always saw them more as "because I can"-features of little practical value.

The iPhone is very much a lifestyle-oriented product, an entertainment center which also happens to allow you to make phone calls, write emails and surf the web. To judge it on its merits as a full blown work computer for IT professionals is kind of like slamming the Porsche 911 for its inadequacies as a family car. Hell yeah the back seat is cramped, the trunk barely holds a briefcase and there's no towing hook for your caravan, but the target demographic isn't looking for any of those things.

And there's plenty more, but I can't remember them all.

No video recording, antique 2 Mpixel camera with no flash, no ability to swap the battery on the fly, no front-facing cam... the list goes on.

In fact, to me, it sounds like a incapable thin client. It's akin to an advanced "reader" of sorts –*you can't really use it to create anything except an email. It's like a web-based e-reader with a little phone capabilities.

It's the epitome of form over function.

Again... you're reviewing Kylie Minogue's latest in the heavy metal column. Bubblegum disco has no guitar solos or double kick drum rolls.

 

[Kaitlyn2004]

Right, but then again what other phone ships with 16 GB out of the box? My previous 3G phone (a Sony Ericsson P1i) indeed has memory expansion, but with only 64 MB of internal memory, you're gonna need it... most manufacturers give you XX or XXX megabytes plus a card slot.

Sure, but 16GB cards go for ~$50 so you can have a 16GB phone. Then in 6 months you can easily swap that out for a 32GB which will probably be that same $50 pricepoint. What can you do with the iphone? Nothing but wait for their successor, then ONLY be able to get it by signing another contract with your carrier.

I'd rather have the freedom rather than "We'll give you THIS MUCH out of the box... but that's all you'll ever get!"

 

[barkomatic]

Here we go again. Everyone forgets that Apple went through the exact same thing with the ipod. Every bloody day there was 'the next ipod killer' announced to the market. Never happened. Everyone concentrates on the hardware and absolutely doesn't understand what Apple has achieved. It's about the total iphone experience.

The iphone has had some dull moments- but you tell me who has a better experience on their phone? The itunes ease of updating, syncing, keeping tabs on what your phone does and how it does it. The app store, wireless itunes, and now the mobileme link up, now that it is working, is pretty extraordinary.

Stop trying to compare a piece of hardware with the iphone experience that apple has created.

Apple's approach is basically right. People use an iphone but just don't understand what it means. That's also why they don't want any bozo messing with the system. If you don't get it, you sure as hell can't mess with it.

Why not compare them? This is an open discussion forum to talk about these kinds of things. I've never used the term "iphone killer" and I'm not sure people would run out to replace their iphones with this device. I agree that no one has replicated Apple's strategy of creating a really slick, easy to use experience on the iphone. Along with that however, they have also created a very closed system that forces you to buy certain things which are subject to their approval and censorship. Have you also noticed that many of the applications released replicate the functionality of various websites? Why should that be necessary?

I do think this strategy will lose Apple some customers in the long run. I'm an adult, and if I want a racy music video on my phone that should be my decision. I also don't like being forced to pay for TV shows on itunes which are available free elsewhere -- if I want to watch them on my device.

In short, the iphone is still vulnerable to competition. I would gladly give up some slick menu items on the iphone for a little more freedom. Although I love my iphone, I didn't realize I was gonna be babysat so much.

 

[Tosser]

I think the idea is to offer basic functionality out of the box and let users decide which direction to go by way of 3rd party software. The top application right now is Air Sharing by Avatron which lets you transfer files like crazy between the iPhone and any web browser on your computer.

First, I disagree that the idea is to "let the users decide by way of 3rd party software". The "closedness" (yeah, I made up that word) of the App store tells a different story.
Secondly, the app you mention – air sharing - is a workaround to the crippling of the device, further driving a stake through the heart of the argument.

Right, but then again what other phone ships with 16 GB out of the box? My previous 3G phone (a Sony Ericsson P1i) indeed has memory expansion, but with only 64 MB of internal memory, you're gonna need it... most manufacturers give you XX or XXX megabytes plus a card slot.

A slot can be used for more than simply memory expansion. It can be used to transfer files, and an SDIO-slot (SD I/O) is a true expansion slot.

Yeah, the SMS forwarding issue and the BT stack certainly leave room for improvement. As for editing files, IMO those things are so awkward and time consuming to do on a cramped handheld anyway, I always saw them more as "because I can"-features of little practical value.

Way to dismiss real features. Of course it's more awkward than sitting at home on your laptop or desktop, but often it's better – and certainly quicker - than waiting until you get home.

The iPhone is very much a lifestyle-oriented product, an entertainment center which also happens to allow you to make phone calls, write emails and surf the web.

Yes, as I said a dumb thin client akin to a web-enabled e-reader with a touch of phone capabilities.

To judge it on its merits as a full blown work computer for IT professionals is kind of like slamming the Porsche 911 for its inadequacies as a family car.

I'm sorry, but you're making a full-on strawman argument. I'm NOT comparing it to a "full blown work computer for IT professionals". Don't be daft.
If you remember, you were the one arguing that windows mobile blows in comparison to the iPhone OS and that Windows Mobile would take at least five years to "catch up".

Hell yeah the back seat is cramped, the trunk barely holds a briefcase and there's no towing hook for your caravan, but the target demographic isn't looking for any of those things.

See above.

No video recording, antique 2 Mpixel camera with no flash, no ability to swap the battery on the fly, no front-facing cam... the list goes on.

Yes, it sure does.

Again... you're reviewing Kylie Minogue's latest in the heavy metal column. Bubblegum disco has no guitar solos or double kick drum rolls.

Stupid analogy, considering you were the one putting that Kylie album and metal album on the table, stating that the metal album would take years to catch up to the prowess of the kylie musicians.

I didn't realize I was gonna be babysat so much.

He he, I like how that sentence sounds
[I'm danish – that might explain it]

 

[BongoBanger]

I think the idea is to offer basic functionality out of the box and let users decide which direction to go by way of 3rd party software.

Agree in part - I think that you should have three segments: simple functions, complex functions and user installed functions. The use or non use of the three should depend on individual preference.

Right, but then again what other phone ships with 16 GB out of the box?

Pretty much every new smartphone comes in 8GB or 16GB flavours with the option of additional microSD expansion. This is the accepted norm these days.

 

[Anuba]

Here we go again. Everyone forgets that Apple went through the exact same thing with the ipod. Every bloody day there was 'the next ipod killer' announced to the market. Never happened. Everyone concentrates on the hardware and absolutely doesn't understand what Apple has achieved. It's about the total iphone experience.

Yeah, but the iPod was launched into a new market and quickly took the lead before anyone else knew what hit'em. The competition was a bunch of small n00bs like iRiver, none of them had the muscle to keep Apple from running over them like a freight train.

The iPhone was launched into an already oversaturated market where Nokia was already what Apple is today on the music player market. Apple doesn't have the upper hand here, and the competition has plenty of muscle and will use it to fight back.

 

[Archie-]

This phone is going to be great. TouchFlo3D is no longer laggy (was fixed before the iPhone 3G's lag problems) and the lipstick layer is pretty thick over Windows Mobile

e.g. to lauch apps you no longer have to use the start menu. It might as well not be there.

Most common settings are now accessible straight from touchflo3d e.g. ringtones, wallpaper, connection manager.

E-mail and text messages now form part of the Touchflo UI, as does a media player.

You can now basically live inside TouchFlo3D and any bits of WM you see will feel like the tacked on part, vs touchFlo3d being layered on.

The phone also has great features like when you connect it to your computer it will ask you if you want to sync, use disk mode or act as a modem for internet sharing. If you dont do anything it will automatically do the last thing you chose. Its very slick.

Also with huge gobs of memory (288 MB RAM vs 128 MB for the iphone 3g) multi-tasking and memory management are no longer issues at all. The UI has also been simplified using Home and Back buttons, meaning its now difficult for new users to get lost in the OS.

The phone also uses the Opera Mobile 9.5 browser, which is better than Safari Mobile and supports flash, so users will actually get the Real Internet.

Basically HTC has really upped the game, and this new device (which uses 3D graphics acceleration btw) will be a serious competitor (at least in the style stakes, if not sales)

This is on top of all the functionality WM provides, such as A2DP, tethering, cut and paste etc.

 

[t0mat0]

Didn't Mossberg review this one?
ANyhow - what's the type of touch-screen again?

 

[Anuba]

First, I disagree that the idea is to "let the users decide by way of 3rd party software". The "closedness" (yeah, I made up that word) of the App store tells a different story.

So, the App store is closed to utilities that add functionality which Apple didn't offer out of the box? That's funny, guess I must be imagining all the software I've installed.

Secondly, the app you mention – air sharing - is a workaround to the crippling of the device, further driving a stake through the heart of the argument.

If a free app that anyone can download offers the exact same functionality as a built-in app would, what's the difference from the end user perspective? Do you rate a computer based on its preinstalled software? I never held against Windows the fact that OS X comes with more software out of the box, since I'll install a bunch of 3rd party stuff that duplicates such functionality anyway. To refer to a device as "crippled" because the preinstalled software doesn't do this or that is just laughable. The whole point of a computer is to install software that turns it into the tool you need.

Way to dismiss real features. Of course it's more awkward than sitting at home on your laptop or desktop, but often it's better – and certainly quicker - than waiting until you get home.

Personally I never used pocket Excel or pocket Word on any of my old Windows CE devices and I wouldn't use it on an iPhone either, but I can see why some would. However, you completely lost me at audio editing. What phone lets you edit audio, and what's the point? I'm a professional sound designer and I edit audio on a daily basis in Steinberg WaveLab, and not even I miss editing audio on a frickin' phone so why would normal users miss it?

I'm sorry, but you're making a full-on strawman argument. I'm NOT comparing it to a "full blown work computer for IT professionals". Don't be daft.

No, you created the strawman by making the iPhone into something it never claimed to be, and then attacked it for not living up to those standards. It's evident that you're looking for a business/IT professional/power user smartphone for geeks, as close to a substitute for a full sized computer as you can possibly get on a handheld, and iPhone wasn't created for that demographic in the first place. Not that they can't enjoy it anyway; I sit in a room full of C++ programmers who are as geeky as can be, and over half of them are iPhone freaks.

Stupid analogy, considering you were the one putting that Kylie album and metal album on the table, stating that the metal album would take years to catch up to the prowess of the kylie musicians.

Yes - for the mainstream iPhone user the iPhone OS beats the living hell out of Windows Mobile because it's so much more intuitive it's not even funny. You, on the other hand, measure a smartphone platform by expandability and power user friendliness, and if that's your bag then fine, but that's the heavy metal measuring stick. Every individual wants something different out of a phone. My girlfriend has some small, razor thin SE phone that does SMS and MMS and that's about it, and she wouldn't touch an iPhone or a HTC Touch or a Blackberry with a 10 ft pole because they're too big. Fine, so her phone is better for her. There's no universal truth that dictates my iPhone is superior to her phone just because it has more features and functionality. Nothing is going to kill the iPhone by offering a higher res camera, or copy/paste, or spreadsheet editing, it also needs to be a better iPhone than the iPhone itself.

By your logic, the MacBook Air shouldn't sell at all -- small screen, slow processor, slow hard drive, no CD/DVD drive, single USB port, no expandability whatsoever, and just about any old Acer laptop should be a MacBook Air "killer" because the specs are better on paper. Yet the MacBook Air is selling like hotcakes.

He he, I like how that sentence sounds
[I'm danish – that might explain it]

Ah, that would explain why you're an arrogant jerk, a Danish trademark.

 

[Archie-]

Didn't Mossberg review this one?
ANyhow - what's the type of touch-screen again?

Mossberg's secretary reviewed the Sprint Touch Diamond, and she's an idiot.

 

[Shackler]

i don't why people create threads like these. we are all to hard headed to be reasonable.

One point i have to call out. the person who said the difference 3'5 inch and 3'8 inch and 320x480 and 800x480 will be negligible because of size is so wrong its unblieveable you will definitely see the difference between the two. .3 of an inch is not that big when you consider the resolution difference. HTC touch HD will have a MUCH better screen.

 

[deannnnn]

It's been said, but Windows Mobile and no US 3G?
It's not even close to being iPhone competition.

 

[bsheridan]

Excuse me if this has been answered/posted before but I thought that when SJ said "...and boy have we patented it" meant that we wouldn't see other competition so similiar, ie- the 'multi-touch hand-held device' aspect of it.

?

 

[Tosser]

So, the App store is closed to utilities that add functionality which Apple didn't offer out of the box? That's funny, guess I must be imagining all the software I've installed.

Did I say that it doesn't add anything? Find me the spot instead of continueing with your ridiculous strawman argumentation.
I was talking about the WAY the store is set up, how Apple acts and what is actually on there because of the way it is set up.
Granted, it can be hard to use real arguments, but please try the next time around.

If a free app that anyone can download offers the exact same functionality as a built-in app would, what's the difference from the end user perspective?

But it doesn't, now does it? It's a way to work around the fact that the iPhone has no UMS - a work around that is far from real UMS.

Do you rate a computer based on its preinstalled software?

Will you please give the strawmen a rest.

I never held against Windows the fact that OS X comes with more software out of the box, since I'll install a bunch of 3rd party stuff that duplicates such functionality anyway.

Neither did I. Be careful with those strawmen, they're pretty prickly to have tight relationship with.

To refer to a device as "crippled" because the preinstalled software doesn't do this or that is just laughable.

The App you mention DOES NOT make the iPhone into a UMS capable device. The FIRMWARE of the iPhone is crippled, and the app is a so-so WORKAROUND. Sheesh!

The whole point of a computer is to install software that turns it into the tool you need.

You just won't stop throwing that strawman against me, will you?

Personally I never used pocket Excel or pocket Word on any of my old Windows CE devices and I wouldn't use it on an iPhone either, but I can see why some would.

Now, any chance you could reread my posts and then by any chance realising you're trying to prove me wrong by way of pretending I said something I didn't?

However, you completely lost me at audio editing. What phone lets you edit audio,

http://www.luci.eu/downloads.html

There are many more out there, but I have the Live Two + edit.

and what's the point?

Use your imagination.

I'm a professional sound designer and I edit audio on a daily basis in Steinberg WaveLab, and not even I miss editing audio on a frickin' phone so why would normal users miss it?

Haha, "not even" you? You realise there's a world outside your studio with you sitting in front of it, right?

No, you created the strawman by making the iPhone into something it never claimed to be, and then attacked it for not living up to those standards. It's evident that you're looking for a business/IT professional/power user smartphone for geeks, as close to a substitute for a full sized computer as you can possibly get on a handheld, and iPhone wasn't created for that demographic in the first place.

Wow, lots of claims in there. All of them unfounded. Ironically, you even use a strawman to make those idiotic claims. Well done.

Not that they can't enjoy it anyway; I sit in a room full of C++ programmers who are as geeky as can be, and over half of them are iPhone freaks.

Wait. You're a "professional audio engineer", yet you sit in a room full of programmers? Sorry, something here just doesn't add up.
Besides, since when does a room full of programmers have any bearing on your claims and/or arguments? Further, even if they had, then you're trying to make an appeal to popularity, and everyone ought to know that is a logical fallacy.

Yes - for the mainstream iPhone user the iPhone OS beats the living hell out of Windows Mobile because it's so much more intuitive it's not even funny. You, on the other hand, measure a smartphone platform by expandability and power user friendliness, and if that's your bag then fine, but that's the heavy metal measuring stick.

I know what you TRIED to portray, but as I mention, I wasn't the one laying both albums on the table and then went "The kylie is technically much better than the metal-one". You did.

Every individual wants something different out of a phone.

Yawn. With that argument, ANYTHING is good enough, ANYTHING works, and EVERYTHING is one par with anything else. It's so stupid it isn't even laughable.

My girlfriend has some small, razor thin SE phone that does SMS and MMS and that's about it, and she wouldn't touch an iPhone or a HTC Touch or a Blackberry with a 10 ft pole because they're too big. Fine, so her phone is better for her. There's no universal truth that dictates my iPhone is superior to her phone just because it has more features and functionality.

You say that, yet you made a direct comparison and said that the iPhone was much better than Windows Mobile? You really should read - if not my posts - then your own posts again.

Nothing is going to kill the iPhone by offering a higher res camera, or copy/paste, or spreadsheet editing, it also needs to be a better iPhone than the iPhone itself.

Are you trying to sow the seeds of yet another strawman here? I never talked about any "iPod Killer", nor was I saying that there ever would be any. But perhaps it's merely an attempt from you to recycle this logical fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

By your logic, the MacBook Air shouldn't sell at all -- small screen, slow processor, slow hard drive, no CD/DVD drive, single USB port, no expandability whatsoever, and just about any old Acer laptop should be a MacBook Air "killer" because the specs are better on paper. Yet the MacBook Air is selling like hotcakes.

Ah, I see, you did BOTH: You make yet another strawman, and back it up with a logical fallacy.

Ah, that would explain why you're an arrogant jerk, a Danish trademark.

Ah, yes, if you're anything to go by, I guess that americans decides to call people names the moment their logical fallacies and strawmen aren't enough. What's your next trick? Emphasising one of my many misspellings?

 

[Archie-]

Excuse me if this has been answered/posted before but I thought that when SJ said "...and boy have we patented it" meant that we wouldn't see other competition so similiar, ie- the 'multi-touch hand-held device' aspect of it.

?

He was just joking. The Meizu device has multi-touch for example. HP's laptop has multi-touch too. Maybe has was talking about visual voice mail, but then actually that patent turned out to belong to some-one else who is licensing it freely.

 

[Chris Bangle]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/10/htc-touch-hd-takes-480-x-800-pixels-fullscreen/

This and the Xperia are pretty good, If there was no iphone, I would definatly be using either the xperia or this new htc. The HTC HD has an amazing looking screen

 

[ucfgrad93]

You lost me at Windows Mobile.

Agreed.

 

[daneoni]

I'd rather use Symbian than Win Mob...and i hate symbian

 

[markgamber]

WinMo doesn't compete with the iPhone. Nor does Blackberry. They're both professional phones with huge feature sets and thousands of apps. The iPhone is a "smartphone for housewives" where simplicity is valued over function. There's no comparison and no competition between them. EOS.

 

[Tosser]

Just in case you're writing yet another long post (yes I did that too), did you or did you not write this?

In order for it to rival the iPhone it would have to rival its software. That's all the iPhone is, really, great software in a somewhat unimportant and unassuming vessel.

[…]Windows Mobile,[…] is very much inferior to the iPhone OS. Perhaps this will have changed in 5 years' time, but as of today, no Windows Mobile or Symbian based phone has anything on the iPhone except better potentially better hardware specs.

That is a direct comparison, if I ever saw one. You claim WM is inferiour on everything, except that it runs on better hardware.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Pretty much every new smartphone comes in 8GB or 16GB flavours with the option of additional microSD expansion. This is the accepted norm these days.

You're correct on the expansion being allowed, but not on the standard memory on-board:

Pantech Duo: 64 MB
Moto Q Global: 256 flash + 96 MB SDRAM
Blackjack 2: 256 MB
Blackberry Curve: 64 MB

I could go on, but you get the point. And, in terms of memory expansion, most of those are expandable up to 2-4 GB. So the iPhone having 8GB on board with no expansion isn't that much of a limitation when compared to other phones. The non-expansion may be a limitation for users who want to have 80GB of music on their phone, but NO phone offers that, so it's a moot issue at this point in the game.